War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 1, Part 3 spoiler thread

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War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 1, Part 3 spoiler thread

Dit onderwerp is gemarkeerd als "slapend"—het laatste bericht is van meer dan 90 dagen geleden. Je kan het activeren door een een bericht toe te voegen.

1Deern
feb 13, 2011, 8:26 am

Week three is over, and as Cushla is ill I am opening the new thread for her, I hope that's okay.

2Deern
feb 13, 2011, 8:49 am

Some of my impressions:

I was relieved that part 3 started in Russia, far away from the battlefields. I found the Marya/ Anatole episode most interesting and I haven't decided yet what to make of it. Bolkonsky senior scares me with his manipulative ways.

Back in Austria we got the famous battle of Austerlitz. It was strange reading about the preparations and all the enthusiasm on the Russian side, knowing what would happen. I was glad we didn't get too much blood and gore details, it was still enough for me. Am I the only one feeling extremely sorry for those poor innocent war horses?

What a terrible scene the drowning of the soldiers in that frozen lake must have been!

Who is that Count Tolstoy mentioned at the end of chapter XI?

I noticed that the word 'beautiful' was used very often when a horse, an officer or a uniform was described and then especially in the scenes with the Russian emperor. I need to check wiki for some pictures - was he really so handsome?

There is so much more I'd like to discuss, but today's one of those days where I just can't form coherent sentences. Maybe tomorrow. :-)

3PersephonesLibrary
Bewerkt: feb 13, 2011, 9:06 am

( I’m sorry, but this got a little bit longer than I thought… )

I finished the third part last Wednesday and I loved it – especially Tolstoi’s vivid descriptions. In chapter 8 for example there’s this moment when the emperors check their troops: In the deathlike stillness only the tramp of horses was heard. I had to imagine that scene: thousands of soldiers standing in units and silently waiting. Maybe it’s just me, but I thought that this picture is quite impressive.

Just a few pages later Tolstoi describes Rostow “falling in love” with the Tsar – this godlike-figure who represents all the reasons why Rostow has to fight in this war and who has so much charisma that the young soldiers sacrifice themselves happily and voluntarily: How gladly would he have died at once for his Tsar! After having read this, I’m afraid that his wish might come true later in the book.

Here are two other scenes about the troops in general which I found interesting:
The first one is in chapter 14: The cause of the confusion was that while the Austrian cavalry was moving toward our left flank, the higher command found that our center was too far separated from our right flank and the cavalry were all ordered to turn back to the right. Several thousand cavalry crossed in front of the infantry, who had to wait.
It just remembered me of the people whose hobby was to reconstruct battles and who let the small soldier “dolls” wander through their miniature world. I just realized the complexity of war when hundreds and thousands of people had to be moved and positioned.

The second one is in chapter 16: "The Apsherons must be stopped, your excellency," cried he. But at that very instant a cloud of smoke spread all round, firing was heard quite close at hand, and a voice of naive terror barely two steps from Prince Andrew shouted, "Brothers! All's lost!" And at this as if at a command, everyone began to run.
So, you can have a whole army standing behind you – one single man can change everything. (Ok, that sounds a bit cheesy, but still…)

And finally some general thoughts about some of our protagonists:
I was surprised by Andrej’s reaction to Nicolai Rostow. Why would he immediately judge him, just because he’s talking about his martial experiences? Does Andrej think he’s just a show-off? In general, I noticed that there exists some kind of rivalry between the different military units.

When Marja said no to Anatol, I felt extremely relieved, because I already feared that she would use any possibility to escape her father and that she would even accept to become the betrayed wife.

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>2 Deern:: Nathalie,the Tsar must have been really handsome for his time. It's been awhile that I read a lot about the French side of this story, about Napoleon and his troops. And even there the Tsar's attractiveness was mentioned!
I also would like to know who this Count Tolstoy was?!

4cushlareads
feb 16, 2011, 7:47 am

I'm being naughty and posting in the spoiler thread when I am only part-way through, so I haven't read your posts yet, but I am just so happy that I haven't fallen off the wagon and am back reading the book!!

That Prince Vassily - what a manipulative old git. And Pierre's cluelessness and passivity is starting to make me like him much less. I'm sure he's going to get a spine some time in the next 1000 pages, but it'd better be soon.

I'm up to the bit where Marya is about to go and meet Anatole. It's so much faster for me to read the parts set in Russia away from the battles!

Does anyone know what a rescript is? (In Part II, the joke about Sergei reading out the tsar's message.)

5Deern
feb 16, 2011, 8:23 am

It's so much faster for me to read the parts set in Russia away from the battles!

Yep - same for me! The battle chapters have more text (long paragraphs without dialogue), and I often have to reread whole sections.

Vol 2 part 1 has only 50 pages, I finished it this morning. I am taking my daily dose of W&P now in the mornings, because I have to leave for work at some point and can't read on and on as I might do in the evenings.
It's much easier to read than Wolf Hall (which I love, but it needs more concentration), so I am always tempted to read 'just a few more pages'.

6JanetinLondon
feb 18, 2011, 7:22 pm

I am loving this book. There are so many characters, and so many events, all so well described with such economy of language. It’s hard to select anything to mention without worrying that I’ve missed out even more interesting or important things. So I’ll just comment on a few of the things that struck me in this section:

1. There’s a lot here about insignificance - of the individual, but also, in the greater scheme of things, of events – “From general to private, every man was conscious of his own insignificance…..”, the description of the battle of Austerlitz as just a tick of the second hand of the clock of history. And yet, Tolstoy goes to such great pains to describe so many individuals, to give them distinct personalities and lives, even minor characters, as if to say yes, everyone is insignificant, but at the same time, everyone matters, too.

2. Prince Andrei and Nikolai Rostov seem to get the most playing time in this section, and the contrast between them is so clearly drawn –
Andrei is ambitious, talented, brave and generous. Although he knows the battle plan is flawed, he imagines ways in which he can affect it, and he dreams of winning the battle single handedly. When his chance for glory comes, he grabs it, picking up the standard and trying to rally the troops. When he is wounded, his thoughts turn philosopical – “Gazing into Napoleon’s eyes, Prince Andrei mused on the unimportance of greatness, the unimportance of life which no one could understand and the still greater unimportance of death, the meaning of which no one alive could understand or explain.”
Nikolai, on the other hand, is young (only 20), self centered, and pretty clueless. He’s not a very good soldier – he almost falls asleep riding along the pickets, and when he sees the French he has no idea what to do; then, when taking his message to Kutuzov, he gets right in the way of the Horse Guards. He dreams of dying for the Emperor. Yet, when he actually has the opportunity to help the Emperor, or at least speak to him, he is unable to do so, and loses his chance. When he is wounded, he feels sorry for himself.

3. There are great descriptions of the events surrounding battles – the preparation (burning unwanted items, drinking tea, loading up baggage carts), walking into the fog, Napoleon, and Kutuzov, watching events from the heights above the fog, chaotic retreats (the scene on the dam in particular), Napoleon visiting the field after the battle.

4. Peace can be more constraining than war. Poor Pierre is unable to escape the plot by all the grownups to marry him to Helene, although he knows it’s a bad idea. In war, despite the danger, the men are free to be brave and heroic, or not, and to advance their careers as they can.

5. Napoleon - clearly he is more intelligent and a better strategist than the Russians and Austrians (although this may be because he doesn’t have to constantly negotiate and jockey for position as the allies do). A mythic figure, revered by his men, and by Andrei (until the end of this section, anyway), and, one supposes, by Tolstoy himself. Generous to defeated officers – he makes sure Andrei is treated. The contrast with the Tsar (who, to be fair, is not a military leader but a civilian one) is sharply drawn – the Tsar hates war, and the image of him after the battle, practically alone, afraid, indecisive, is telling, and these differences seem indicative of the state of the two parties. I also noticed how Napoleon several times tells his troops that their enemies are “hirelings of the English” – I don’t know if this is true, but I suspect he says it because he knows the French hate the English more than they hate the Russians or the Austrians!

Onwards to Book II!

7cushlareads
feb 19, 2011, 6:56 am

Here's the next thread:

http://www.librarything.com/topic/110322

Am still going on this part but catching up.

8Deern
feb 20, 2011, 5:33 am

I am not yet sure what to make of Andrei. The other male characters have so many faults and he seems so 'polished', almost perfect, but quite featureless. In him everything that's thought to be noble is united. Even dying he gets all philosophical - it's like he is the triumph of mind over the body while Nicolai is the opposite.

Nicolai Rostov... there's so much I could write about him, maybe in the next chapter. I don't like him, but I feel for him. Poor stupid spoiled weak child!

I am developping more sympathy for Pierre now that he is past the bear fighting stage of his life. It seems that, having spent so much time away from Russian society, he was not able to build up some good connections and now he is left with the title and all the money and doesn't know what to do with all this and whom to trust. It was somehow inevitable for him to step into that marriage trap Prince Vassily had laid out.

9Rebeki
jun 5, 2011, 1:13 pm

I'm continuing to comment long after the party's over, but it's interesting to read what others thought and I appreciate being able to keep track of my progress.

Anyway, I really enjoyed this section, even the war part!

I was very frustrated by Pierre's naivety and was hoping that he would somehow manage to escape marriage to Hélène. At the moment, I feel he deserves his fate for being so spineless, but hope to have my mind about him changed soon!

I was greatly relieved that Prince Kuragin's second scheme ended in failure as I feared for the equally naive though less irritating Maria. I really like the old Prince Bolkonsky and was amused by his order to have the ploughed snow put back on the drive. Did he know that by summoning Maria to see him at that time she would catch sight of Anatole with Mlle Bourienne?

I was disappointed in Nikolai for his embellishment of his battle experience (making him just like the soldiers at the end of the previous section) and his rudeness to Prince Andrei. In some respects, though, the two seemed similar. Both were dreaming of achieving glory on the battlefield and winning the admiration of others, but Andrei made a much better stab at it. However, I thought there was something understandable about Nikolai's assumption that the Tsar might not welcome seeing him at such a vulnerable moment. I'm surprised that the hero worship didn't end there, as Alexander, despite being young and handsome/beautiful, as Tolstoy keeps reminding us, doesn't cut a very impressive figure.

Reading about the Russians' confidence in the run-up to the Battle of Austerlitz was almost heartbreaking and I found the battle scenes far more absorbing than in the previous section. I suppose it's just a question of getting used to them...

10Deern
jun 5, 2011, 1:24 pm

#9: I had completely forgotten about that snow scene and only remembered it recently when I followed your link to that W&P site. You're right, that bit was hilarious.
Btw. I love that site, it made me finally understand epilogue II.

11JanetinLondon
jun 6, 2011, 12:03 pm

#9 - I'm glad you liked old Bolkonsky - I do, too, although lots of people don't. I think his rigidity is because he believes in doing the right thing/doing things well, which I really respect.

12cushlareads
jun 6, 2011, 12:05 pm

Rebeki, I liked Bolkonsky a lot too. And Pierre was such a wimp in that scene! (Excuse lack of incisiveness. Good thing there's no exam at the end.)

13Rebeki
jun 10, 2011, 1:39 am

#10 Nathalie, I'm glad you've found the site useful. It's a bit irreverent at times and definitely aimed at (US) teenagers, but I'm also finding it helpful as a guide, especially when I put W&P down for a few days and forget where I am.

#11 Janet, I'm not sure I'd like to have him as a father, but I think his heart's in the right place and he makes for a very entertaining character.

#12 Cushla, I always want to say something deep in my comments about W&P, because, well, it's War and Peace, but seem to be failing! It's a bit like my appreciation of art - I love going to galleries, but my thoughts never seem to get beyond, "I like that", or "that's striking".