War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 4, Part I
Discussie75 Books Challenge for 2011
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2Deern
An early comment: Helene's death seems even more pointless than Lise's. Couldn't she simply have died of whatever before becoming an interesting character? I would have loved to know more about her second marriage (at this point it isn't even clear if she went through with it, because Pierre never agreed) and her little side-affair. And now she just dies - no, we just hear it being mentioned that she has died, which makes the event even more unimportant. And it might have been suicide. Was she a suicidal character? I never thought so.
And Natasha's Andrei is dying as well. Isn't that convenient? *sigh* I liked Natasha and Andrei together.
These sentimental bits about the tsar who always seems to be close to tears - I guess they were important for the Russian readers at Tolstoi's time. For the modern reader they sound certainly strange. But I like that we get these close looks at both sovereigns and that Tolstoi makes them human beings with sentiments, expectations and disappointments.
Something about the style: I loved the expression "quoique étranger, mais Russe de coeur et d' âme" and that it was even used twice in this short chapter.
And now back to Nikolai Rostov - I've missed him lately and am glad he is alive and well.
And Natasha's Andrei is dying as well. Isn't that convenient? *sigh* I liked Natasha and Andrei together.
These sentimental bits about the tsar who always seems to be close to tears - I guess they were important for the Russian readers at Tolstoi's time. For the modern reader they sound certainly strange. But I like that we get these close looks at both sovereigns and that Tolstoi makes them human beings with sentiments, expectations and disappointments.
Something about the style: I loved the expression "quoique étranger, mais Russe de coeur et d' âme" and that it was even used twice in this short chapter.
And now back to Nikolai Rostov - I've missed him lately and am glad he is alive and well.
3Deern
Wow, this part really has some easy-to-read action to offer, even though once again with a touch of soap opera. Now Andrei has to die if Nikolai wants to marry Marya, while he has to live for Sonya to be the happy bride. A marriage of Andrei and Natasha would probably turn Marya into Nikolai's sister?
This reminds me of the whole Henry VIII/ Katherine of Aragon story, where a man was not allowed to marry his brother's widow, because by marriage she became his sister (or like in Wolf Hall a wife's sister becomes the husband's sister, so he can't marry her after the wife's death).
Sonya, used to sacrifice herself and usually enjoying it. Poor thing. The only intrigue she ever tried in her life will fail, I fear. Another question: if Andrei survives, why would he and Natasha (who have never been officially engaged) have priority over Marya and Nikolai? Wouldn't it do if Nikolai just was the first to propose? Okay, it would be cruel to Natasha, but by one marriage the Rostovs would gain a lot of money and by the other one lose a big dowry.
This reminds me of the whole Henry VIII/ Katherine of Aragon story, where a man was not allowed to marry his brother's widow, because by marriage she became his sister (or like in Wolf Hall a wife's sister becomes the husband's sister, so he can't marry her after the wife's death).
Sonya, used to sacrifice herself and usually enjoying it. Poor thing. The only intrigue she ever tried in her life will fail, I fear. Another question: if Andrei survives, why would he and Natasha (who have never been officially engaged) have priority over Marya and Nikolai? Wouldn't it do if Nikolai just was the first to propose? Okay, it would be cruel to Natasha, but by one marriage the Rostovs would gain a lot of money and by the other one lose a big dowry.
4Deern
Tolstoi does the death scenes of his male characters quite well. Andrei's reminded me of his short novel The Death of Ivan Ilych.
So I guess now Nikolai will marry Marya. And Natasha... I am sad about Andrei's death.
I don't know what to write about Pierre here. Terrible experiences, yes. But somehow it didn't touch me. I am reading this as passively as he is living all his life.
So I guess now Nikolai will marry Marya. And Natasha... I am sad about Andrei's death.
I don't know what to write about Pierre here. Terrible experiences, yes. But somehow it didn't touch me. I am reading this as passively as he is living all his life.
5JanetinLondon
Yes, a much easier section to read through, getting us back to some "life", even though death features so highly. Three things struck me:
1. The different treatments of Helene’s and Andrei’s deaths. At first I wondered if Tolstoy was just clearing out characters he didn’t know what to do with any more. Then I realized these chapters bracketed the section, and I thought he did what he did more purposefully:
Helene – no longer of any use in her society (or in our story) now that parties aren’t quite what they were – no real friends, or anyone who loves her to be with her at the end – she dies alone. We don’t even see it, just hear about it as part of the gossip. Is it suicide, one last dramatic gesture? No one cares.
Andrei – a very spiritual death, for which he is fully prepared, with the two women he loves and who love him close by. It could have been too melodramatic, but I found it quite moving.
I think Tolstoy is really showing his colors here – Helene shallow and insignificant, Andrei more substantial and beloved.
2. Again, the stirrings back to “normality” – the middle aged ladies will continue to match make, despite everyone’s reduced and perilous circumstances – it is one of the only certainties of life for them (and society) to cling on to.
3. Yet another Pierre section which I am confused about. I am starting to form an idea about him, though, which I’ll leave for now in case I get more evidence in the next section. I don’t see him as particularly passive, just as aimless and confused, ever seeking something.
1. The different treatments of Helene’s and Andrei’s deaths. At first I wondered if Tolstoy was just clearing out characters he didn’t know what to do with any more. Then I realized these chapters bracketed the section, and I thought he did what he did more purposefully:
Helene – no longer of any use in her society (or in our story) now that parties aren’t quite what they were – no real friends, or anyone who loves her to be with her at the end – she dies alone. We don’t even see it, just hear about it as part of the gossip. Is it suicide, one last dramatic gesture? No one cares.
Andrei – a very spiritual death, for which he is fully prepared, with the two women he loves and who love him close by. It could have been too melodramatic, but I found it quite moving.
I think Tolstoy is really showing his colors here – Helene shallow and insignificant, Andrei more substantial and beloved.
2. Again, the stirrings back to “normality” – the middle aged ladies will continue to match make, despite everyone’s reduced and perilous circumstances – it is one of the only certainties of life for them (and society) to cling on to.
3. Yet another Pierre section which I am confused about. I am starting to form an idea about him, though, which I’ll leave for now in case I get more evidence in the next section. I don’t see him as particularly passive, just as aimless and confused, ever seeking something.
6Deern
You are right - Helene has been leading that great society life and yet she dies all alone and ends being nothing but a subject for new gossip.
Andrei's death: Twice in the novel he was close to death and I was glad Tolstoy let him not die on the battlefield but among his loved ones.
Then there is that moment when the connection of the dying person to the outside world is broken (just like in Ivan Ilych). Natasha and Marya can't reach him anymore and this prevents the movie-like melodrama. It's all very peaceful. I am sure they don't do this quiet scene justice in the movie versions.
Andrei's death: Twice in the novel he was close to death and I was glad Tolstoy let him not die on the battlefield but among his loved ones.
Then there is that moment when the connection of the dying person to the outside world is broken (just like in Ivan Ilych). Natasha and Marya can't reach him anymore and this prevents the movie-like melodrama. It's all very peaceful. I am sure they don't do this quiet scene justice in the movie versions.
7JanetinLondon
Right - you have reminded me that I meant to include that great quote from right after Andrei dies - they are crying, not for themselves, or for him, but
"....from the emotion and awe which took possession of their souls before the simple and solemn mystery of death that had been accomplished before their eyes."
"....from the emotion and awe which took possession of their souls before the simple and solemn mystery of death that had been accomplished before their eyes."
