K&R C, ANSI C: one work or two?

(Update: when this topic started, disambiguation notices could be written for authors but not yet for works. LT has improved in that respect.
The current situation is that we have separate works for the older, K&R C edition (work/1577043) and the modern ANSI C edition (/work/3600740), but it is clear that there are still problems especially with foreign editions - see messages #10, #12, #14.)

I have separated The C Programming Language by K and R from "The C Programming Language 2nd Edition (ANSI C)" by K and R. In my opinion K&R C and ANSI C are different enough languages to make it confusing when they are combined. The older book, which I learned C from way back, is now of only historical interest: someone who studied it now and thought that he had learned C would be sadly mistaken.

I wanted to record my reasons for the separation, but there seems to be no place for discussion in the combine/separate sections. Am I missing something?

(Edit: Touchstone added for first. I can't get a correct touchstone for the Second Edition, but the social page for it is http://www.librarything.com/work/3600740&book=18799053)

There is indeed no place for the discussion, even though we often want to leave notes there. Best thing is to post here and include touchstones. Unfortunately I'm having a hard time finding the right touchstones - but there are so many similarly titled books on programming C that I feel like you might have better luck, since you know exactly which ones you want.

Somehow the cocktail party test doesn't seem to work here.

What about using the "reviews" for notices that we would normally think of as disambiguation notices for authors...

Yes, we aren't really posting a review, but information on the book... at least temporarily it would be a way to add information on a specific book/edition/volume (?)

Well, I'd say most combiners wouldn't be reading the reviews to determine what they should do, and also, once the editions have been combined it won't be clear anymore which one the review goes with.

If you're going to post a disambiguation notice, the main option is to put it on the author's page. That's how it is for The Annotated Alice on Lewis Carroll's page, which doesn't want to touchstone for some reason.

http://www.librarything.com/work/3376849

When I'm combining & need information, I check the "regular" stuff... author, title, isbn, year pub'd, # of pages, edition... but if I'm still not sure, I check the tags & the reviews... if I could read all comments, I'd do that, too...

I've seen someone put a simple title up & then put the volume name/# in some place else... details that others have in their title.

That's why I suggested the review.

That also insures that the person posting the info has the book, or had the book at one time & still wants it listed in their library, not just someone wanting to comment for the sake of commenting.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have now done some more splitting and combining of The C Programming Language and The C Programming Language, Second Edition (I can't get a correct touchstone for this), and I hope they are sorted out now.

I've also written short reviews indicating that the editions are very different from each other.

Thanks, Jim... if someone does combine them in the future (of course, accidentally) then it will be easier to separate them.

because we all know that someone will combine them... (accidentally, of course) ... but hopefully not.

Alas and as one can check, up 'til present, most (!) cover pictures available with the The C Programming Language (K&R C) work page clearly read "Second Edition" and/or "ANSI C" (stamp) -- i.e. they (and their corresponding book entries) are NOT belonging to the work The C Programming Language (K&R C), but rather to the (as stated above, and right so) different work The C programming language, Second Edition (sorry, no appropriate Touchstones available; try this link at K&R2).

Cluttering things worse, one of the covers from Amazon with LT's K&R 2 work page (link) clearly is NOT K&R2 (ANSI C), but rather K&R C instead.

FYI: I have separated and recombined as appropriate the Dutch language edition C Handboek, for the latter is a translation (into Dutch) of K&R2 (ANSI C) indeed. I have got K&R2 both in English and in Dutch.

What's more : though of course K&R prior to 1988 will be K&R C, each and every edition that has been published (in whatever language) from 1988 and on rather will be K&R2 -- i.e. : the ANSI C edition.

FYI 2 : Next year -- i.e. : 2008, soon to start --, let's remember -- and celebrate -- the 30th anniversary of K&R2 and our beloved and most reliable ANSI C. Of course, all of you interested do know that K&R2 is not an old book : it is a (the) most useful, most reliable and vital classic.

Përshëndetje të gjithëve, that's: "Hello world" -- in Albanian.
(Hat tip: Bell Labs's K&R2 page -- check the latter for a wealth of different languages' K&R2 editions.)

Thanks boekerij.
I see, however, that your copy of C handboek, full title in your catalog C handboek (Prentice-Hall/Academic Service serie), isn't combined into K&R2, though an edition with title just C handboek is. I'll combine yours later today, unless you're quicker!

jimroberts (11) :

Thank you. I had it combined as due. Someone unsavvy decombined it. As far as I understand, you recombined it. I just found it decombined (again!). I recombined it now, once more.

As I do not know whether--and if so, how--I can edit your disambiguation notice, you might want and edit it yourself, adding e.g. :
"Notice to (un)combiners :
If you are not sure whether an (foreign language) edition of K&R belongs to either K&R C, either K&R2 (ANSI C), please leave it alone and do not touch, i.e. : combine neither decombine. Other Thingamabrarians having more specialised knowledge in this matter, will do the job. Thank you for your understanding."

I think that you get the understanding. Please rephrase as due.

Thank you again,
boekerij.

You can edit any disambiguation notice by clicking on the little pencil icon next to it.
I've extended my notices for the C books and added a link to this topic.
If you go to librarything.nl, you can add an Ontwarringsbericht for your countrymen.

> 13

I still haven't got the slightest idea where/how to edit it. Never mind, you did the job and did it fine. Thank you.

AFAIK, one hasn't to go to a different language edition in order to see/view/edit a disambiguation notice (whatever the language), has one ?

In re K&R C vs. K&R2 (ANSI C), things turn out to be worse than I (we) thought.

Culprits might be not as much individual Thingamabrarians, but rather LT's autocombining feature, LT's autoretrieving feature, and some "authoritative" (sic, LT says) sources as i.a. (and most prominently) Amazon's.

Have a look at the K&R C work descriptions page : have a look at the book covers collection -- one single cover only of them is right. Look at the work descriptions : the first one might be about K&R C; the second one reads : "Publisher: Prentice-Hall of indiaEdition: Second" (retrieved from Amazon at Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:58:13 -0500). Boy, this is a mess.

Have a look at the K&R2 (ANSI C) work descriptions page : Hey, the K&R C book cover is there too. Adding that the only book description available is the same one as the first one available with the former work. The other work description, that shouldn't appear with the former work, is not available over here--though it would match this work (not the other).

Wan'a horror ? (You have been warned !)
Have this : K&R C work details page.

Subjects field is autopopulated. It reads :
C
C (Computer program language)
C++ (Computer program language)

Yeah!

(YMMV)

Wan' more ?

Remember you are looking at the K&R C work details page. If you feel very, very strong, you might--might--dare and look at its "other languages" section :

Dutch – C handboek
French – Le langage c - norme ansi
German – Programmieren in C. (5849 861). Mit dem C- Reference Manual in deutscher Sprache
Japanese – The C Programming Language: ANSI C Version (Prentice Hall Software)
Portuguese – C: a Linguagem de Programação Padrão Ansi
Spanish – Lenguaje de Programacion C, El - 2b0 Ed.
Swedish – C Programming Language (Swedish)

Loud and clear !

Sorry. It turns out that my warning was not adequate. Obviously, you were not strong enough--but your voice was. I think they heard you scream the other side of the Atlantic, too !

Solution proposal :

1) Putting up a big and loud warning, reading :
"W A R N I N G
PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH : WORK IN PROGRESS
(for additional information : look here)"
(the latter is a link to this very LT Group topic)

2) Decombining each and every copy of K&R C either K&R2 as much and as thorough as possible.

3) Wait and hope for the LT system (all servers) to catch the full decomposition. The latter might take some time.

4) If and only if full decomposition has succeeded : recombine as due.

5) Replace the big warning (see step 1 above).

6) Follow up.

Do you think we can try and give this a chance ?

Have you got any better idea ? Or any alternative idea whatsoever in this matter ?

Disambiguation notices for authors are common to all sites, but a disambiguation notice for a work counts as part of Common Knowledge and is language specific. (Look at http://www.librarything.nl/work/1577043/commonknowledge/ and there's nothing entered.) However, I see that disambiguation notices are now also shown on the Debris (Edit: now called Editions) page but can't be edited there. In fact, you now see two for each of these books, because today I've written German ones.

It's clear that there is still something wrong with K&R C, but it's not obvious what. Back in August 2007 I separated everything that had in its title ANSI or 2 or second in any language I could recognise, and there is nothing so obvious now. I suspect that the wrong covers are at partly left over from the time when the editions were combined, though no doubt some of it is because of people who are happy to use any cover which is nearly right. The obviously wrong foreign titles, like French – "Le langage c - norme ansi" may also be left over from the bad old days: according to Kernighan's Combine/Separate page, that title no longer occurs for the first edition.

The wrong subject field is really very bad and AFAIK there's nothing we can do about it.

The situation must be very confusing for some non-English users, for instance, in the page Werken samenvoegen: Brian W. Kernighan (auteur), both editions are "C handboek door Brian W. Kernighan".

Your suggestion would take a lot of work, and it might well not be completely successful. Separation of a work sometimes leads to a small group of copies which clearly don't belong together, but which can't be separated.

I've added an update to my OP to summarise the current situation.