Group Read: Middlemarch, Third Thread

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Group Read: Middlemarch, Third Thread

Dit onderwerp is gemarkeerd als "slapend"—het laatste bericht is van meer dan 90 dagen geleden. Je kan het activeren door een een bericht toe te voegen.

1labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 13, 2010, 3:22 pm

You've found our third thread

Here's a link to our second.



So this week we are reading Chapt. VII, "Two Temptations." Or let me correct myself, since some people are behind and others have even finished the book: this week we are posting on Chapt. VII. As always, people are invited and encouraged to post here even if they have finished the book.

2sibylline
dec 13, 2010, 4:05 pm

Thank you so much for posting the new thread, and for putting in some graphic interest. I have the BBC production on my Netflix list......I'm thinking to watch it over xmas in one indulgent swoop.

Brilliant post about Bulstrode (not just being nice, B.)-- it makes perfect sense, especially the working to better yourself, to know yourself.

3alcottacre
dec 14, 2010, 12:32 am

I am just checking in. I started Part VII and up to chapter LXVI.

4labwriter
dec 15, 2010, 8:54 am

Hi Stasia. I'm checking in as well. I just finished LXVI in Book VII. Counting this one, I think there are five more chapters in this book.

5sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 16, 2010, 11:03 am

I'm going to report in in more depth here, since it is Thursday. I've read LXIII through LXVI and I'll try to be brief and leave room for any discussion that might arise.

LXIII opens with several other medical men badmouthing Lydgate and Farebrother defending him; the main purpose of it is that F. gains a new insight into Lydgate -- that he might be in financial straits and that his marriage may not be the blissful union which it appears to be. There is an almost sticky scene of F playing with the Vincy children and interacting with Mary.

Lydgate, when approached by F. retreats coldly - indeed the very thought of asking anyone for help leads him to think 'suicide seemed easier.' Such is pride.

LXIV This might be the most painful chapter yet. Lydgate discovering the implacable and entirely self-referential nature of his wife -- understanding that much of her strange equanimity in the face of his anger lies in her absolute faith in her own judgement. 'he had a growing dread of Rosamond's quiet elusive obstinancy' -- she even manages to cause him to doubt himself because her conviction that he mislead her is so strong. Her distaste for his work, 'almost a morbid vampire's taste' from her pov also was not a part of their courtship, she avers, and so she was not prepared for it, hadn't agreed to it. In this aspect I found myself asking (briefly as it turns out) -- she is saying on the one hand she won't be a partner in these difficulties, but on the other hand, from a feminist pov, why should she be? Except of course, he did not deceive her, she deceived herself, saw what she wanted to see, his good connections, his manner and so on. So once again, Rosy comes off pretty badly but as one of these passive agressive folks who can run the show pretty effectively. On the other hand too -- Lydgate's pride has led him part of the way into this fix and it is playing an even bigger part in it now -- I almost think a part of him is quite relieved at Rosy's position of staying in the house for the time being..... it will be interesting to see what they come up with to get out of this fix.

LXV THE LETTER from Uncle Godwin! I blushed from my toes to the crown reading that letter. Lydgate controls himself admirably, in my view! And this! "Even her father was unkind, and might have done more for them. In fact there was but one person in Rosamond's world whom she did not regard as blameworthy, and that was the graceful creature with blond plaits and with little hands crossed before her, who had never expressed herself unbecomingly, and had always acted for the best-the best naturally being what she best liked."

At the end of their discussion Lydgate can argue no more: "He wished to excuse everything in her if he could-but it was inevitable that in the excusing mood he should think of her as if she were an animal of another and feebler species. Nevertheless she had mastered him."

Wow, that is a very very complicated statement about male-female interaction, no? The price a woman like that pays for manipulation is to be regarded as 'other' -- not a team player in other words. The implication being to be regarded as an equal, you have to pull as much weight as you can in a relationship - I think this might be the most scathing Eliot has been -- both of these statements.

Finally LXVI
Lydgate goes back to work... and 'the direct external calls on his judgment and sympathies brought the added impulse needed to draw him out of himself. It was not simply that beneficent harness of routine
which enable silly men to live respectably and unhappy men to live calmly-it was a perpetual claim on the immediate fresh application of thought, and on the consideration of another's need and trial." And, by implication, just what Rosy lacks access to, a meaningful life.

The rest of this chapter is taken up with Lydgate almost losing it in the billiard room, ironically and wonderfully his savior is Fred, who is teetering himself, but the sight of a man he admires in such a state scares him silly and moves him to act. Fred also has an interaction with Farebrother who warns him that if he fails to live up to his promises to Mary he, Farebrother, will no longer feel bound to step back from courting Mary. When Fred understands what Farebrother is giving up for his sake, he is deeply moved -- this is one of Fred's virtues, an ability to emotionally link with others and to learn and benefit from him. He is weak, but he is not bad, and he might grow to be strong on his own with the right guidance, I think is the implication.
Here's what Eliot says, "Some one highly susceptible to the contemplation of a fine act has said, that it produces a sort of regenerating shudder through the frame, and makes one feel ready to begin a new life. A good degree of that effect was just then present in Fred Vincy." Lovely.

6LizzieD
dec 16, 2010, 11:17 am

Thanks, Lucy. I said to you, I think, that I've had lately to deal with a Rosy-type, and I don't know how it can be done. She is a limited, self-righteous, selfish little creature who will never understand anything outside her own worldview. One can either yield to her (and I'm grateful beyond measure not to be married {!} to mine or to have any binding relationship with her) or leave her. I ask again, or at least I think it's again, how far our typical courtships have evolved from the Lydgates' one of mutual illusion.
I have 3 chapters, the finale, and an afterward to read, so I hope to finish today or tomorrow. It's been a wonderful experience to read it with you all. Thank you!

7sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 16, 2010, 12:55 pm

Rosy really is awful, I don't know why I keep chipping away at the edges of her awfulness -- if she was in the workplace she would probably be one of those unbearable manipulative people, eh? So maybe she's better off staying put in Middlemarch.

8labwriter
dec 16, 2010, 12:14 pm

Eliot has created in Rosamond one of the most illustrative portraits of narcissism I've run across in literature. "Rosy" will never see herself as being in the wrong, and thus she will never change.

I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with a Rosy-type, Peggy. As someone who has lived with one of these people my entire life, I will tell you that the ONLY way to deal with a true narcissist is to run!--out of their lives, as fast as you can. They cannot be "fixed"--as you say, you don't know how it can be "done" to deal with this person. If he/she is a true narcissist, it CANNOT be done. These people are the ultimate crazymakers, believing they're entitled to abuse everyone's time, and since they will never be happy themselves (they have no clue what that really means--they "fake it" and figure everyone else is faking it as well), they are pleased to make sure that no one within their sphere of influence will be happy either. And you can substitute any other word you like for "happy"--satisfied, content with their own life, productive, effective, successful--you name it.

Lydgate was arrogant, and for that he deserved a comeuppance; however, no one deserves a person like Rosamond in their life. She really had "mastered" him. Since he can't divorce her, his only way out of this will quite literally be the death of one of them. I'm sitting here trying to remember what happens to Lydgate & Rosamond, and I have to admit that I've forgotten, but it won't end well, I'm sure.

9BookAngel_a
dec 16, 2010, 12:17 pm

I think Rosy is the character I dislike the most in Middlemarch. I liked her a little when she did that ONE good deed, but otherwise she's just too cold and manipulative. I'd rather deal with Bulstrode than her any day.

10LizzieD
Bewerkt: dec 16, 2010, 3:16 pm

And really, Angela, the only reason that she did her one good deed was basically selfish. I'm almost finished (I'll be back with the proclamation soon) and trying to pin down the difference between Celia and Rosy. Celia is equally limited and equally self-satisfied, shrewd in a way that Dorothea is not, but her redeeming grace is that she truly loves, I think. I've been vastly entertained by her assumption that Dodo will worship at the shrine of Arthur and will arrange her life to accommodate James.
(ETA: I can easily get away from mine, Becky. Sounds like your break was a more difficult one.)

11yolana
dec 16, 2010, 5:43 pm

Celia is also much more open about what she wants. She doesn't resort to the deviousness that Rosy does and when she doesn't get her own way she doesn't take it as a mortal insult to her universe. Also, having been raised with Dorothea, she has seen what sacrifice looks like even if she doesn't care to sacrifice anything herself. She also seems to be capable of pity.

12labwriter
dec 16, 2010, 5:56 pm

Peggy and Yolana: I think you got Celia exactly right: she is capable of authentic emotion, like love and pity, whereas poor Rosy doesn't have a clue.

I really liked what you said about Fred & Lydgate in Chapt. LXVI--that "ironically," Fred saves Lydgate.

Well, I'm on to Chapt. LXVII in Book VII. Happy reading, those of you who are still with us.

13LizzieD
dec 16, 2010, 6:26 pm

I came to report that I have finished! No Christmas cards today or any other reading, but I have finished Middlemarch! I also enjoyed the Frank Kermode "Afterward" in my Signet edition. Among other things he points out that Ladislaw is quite a flawed and undeveloped character. Since we seem to have addressed him only as an adjunct of Dorothea, (and it's novel to me to find a male treated as adjunct to a female), I suspect that we agree by default.
Thank you all for faithful and insightful posting!

14Donna828
dec 16, 2010, 6:58 pm

Congrats, Peggy, and to others who have finished. That's quite an accomplishment. The end is in sight for me as well. At least it appears that way when I see how far my bookmark is into the book.

I am staying on course with Lucy and Becky, which made reading their astute posts very timely, as I finished Chapter 67 this afternoon. I have nothing to add...just that I am also grateful for all the comments here. Reading a book this size with others makes it so much more enjoyable.

15sibylline
dec 16, 2010, 7:35 pm

The lack of empathy Rosy has for others is really the key, isn't it? Celia may be a lightweight compared to Dodo, but she is grounded, as we all agree, in her ability to love and care. What an acute observer GE was.

I think that is intriguing about Ladislaw -- I've several times been thinking, so WHAT is the attraction. I mean Dodo is so inexperienced about men and she is attracted to L. mainly because he is the first man who she's been able to have a real convo with. Is that enough? He seems so moody and petulant and, yes, undeveloped.

16alcottacre
dec 17, 2010, 1:56 am

I finished it! I loved it just as much this time around (perhaps more since I did it with this group) than I did on my initial read of the book some 15 years ago.

A couple of my favorite lines, near the end of the book. Caleb Garth talking to his daughter, Mary, after she tells him what a dear, good father he is: "Nonsense, child; you'll think your husband better." To which Mary responds: "Impossible. . .husbands are an inferior class of men, who require keeping in order."

17-Cee-
dec 17, 2010, 8:24 am

LOL! Love it, Stasia! Though I truly could not say that about Ron. He's too good to me.

I am still with you all... coming down the final stretch. This is a great book for a group read.

18labwriter
dec 17, 2010, 9:34 am

So Claudia, I think it's you, me, and Lucy who are bringing up the rear on this group read. Is anyone else still reading????

19sibylline
dec 17, 2010, 11:27 am

Congrats Stasia! I bet I end up being the last one! But I'm going to read quite attentively today.

20alcottacre
dec 17, 2010, 11:29 am

#19: Thanks, Lucy. Whether or not you are last is beside the point, I think. Just enjoy the book :)

21lauranav
dec 17, 2010, 12:14 pm

I have not been reading Middlemarch, I've been in need of more comfort reading plus catching up on a series so I can read the ER book I won in Nov.

But, next week and the week after Christmas promise to be rather quiet so I have hopes for time to dedicate to MM.

22labwriter
dec 17, 2010, 12:25 pm

Hi Laura. I know just what you mean about the need for "comfort" reading. I read 5 or 6 different books at a time, hoping that one of them will strike my particular mood of the moment. So glad to know you're still here. Lucy says she bets she'll be last, but maybe not--I may beat her out for last place, haha. But as Stasia says, it hardly matters. Actually, I've enjoyed reading it at the pace of a couple of chapters a day. I didn't have that luxury the first time around, since I was reading it for a class, and I'm pretty sure we spent only two weeks on it--two very intense weeks.

Happy reading!

23labwriter
dec 18, 2010, 10:13 am

I don't have anything to say yet this morning; I'm just resurrecting the MM thread towards the top of the list so I can find it. More later.

24sibylline
dec 18, 2010, 11:32 am

I have finished VII and so am reporting in.

LXVII And so Lydgate squeaks past a very touch and go moment.... but far worse it to come. He has to apply to the slimey Bulstrode, who not only refuses him but informs him that he is no longer going to support the hospital and will recommend that it be absorbed by the other local institution, the Infirmary which is more or less cutting Lydgate loose since none of the Infirmary docs can stand him. Nice simile: "Lydgate waited a little, but Bulstrode only bowed, looking at him fixedly, and he went on with the same interrupted enunciation-as if he were biting into an objectionable leek." Which makes me think -- probably Bulstrode wouldn't have helped in any event, but Lydgate clearly is somehow simultaneously asking for help and being disdainful -- a specialty of the aristocratic that particularly rankles with the bourgeoisie. Not a pretty scene at all. I look forward to seeing it played out in the MM BBC production!

LXVIII Didn't really want to spend this much time in Bulstrode's head, in fact, that is a worthy question altogether, possibly. Why Eliot lavishes so much attention on Bulstrode and not, say, on Ladislaw??? Anyhow B. is worrying about Raffles, and rightly so, trying to give him an ultimatum, all the while knowing that probably he is stuck to his shoes like gum. (or slime on a reptile as GE put it even more yuckily)
The ch ends on a hopeful note when Caleb conceives the idea of Fred taking over Stone Court since Bulstrode has asked him to oversee things.

LXIX But those hopes are swiftly dashed -- Caleb encounters a very ill Raffles who spills. Caleb being his honor-bound self goes to Bulstrode and hands in his resignation. The rest of the ch is pure plot really, with Lydgate called in to help Bulstrode with Raffles who he has more or less hidden at Stone Court. Unwittingly Lydgate gives B. the info he needs to 'passively' murder Raffles...... At the end of this chapter is an affecting scene of Rosy and Lydgate both weeping, for entirely different reasons and then an even more ghastly interaction between to conclude the chapter. Really, the most chilling thing.
Nice description of Caleb as he waits to speak to Bulstrode:"He looked at the ground, leaning forward and letting his long fingers droop between his legs, while each finger moved in succession, as it it were sharing some thought which filled his large quiet brow." For some reason I always see Gary Cooper when I think of Caleb, just a little less handsome to make him real.

Poignant: Lydgate on his bleak prospects w/Rosy: "...everything which could have saved him and R from that bare isolation in which they would be forced to recognize how little of a comfort they could be to each other...." ".....in poor R's mind there was not enough room for luxuries to look small in." devastating. And even worse: "He felt bruised and shattered, and there was a dark line under his eyes which R had not seen before. She could not bear to look at him. T. had a way of taking things which made them a great deal worse for her." Ow ow ow.

LXX A thoroughly sordid plot-driven chapter in which B steps back and 'allows' Raffles to die -- and to secure an unsuspecting Lydgate he gives him the loan. It should be said that B succumbs to temptation rather than actively seeking Raffles death, but what a fine line!

LXXI A long complex chapter -- with the 'Greek chorus' in full cry -- the gossip about B. gets out despite all B's efforts and runs through the town by word of mouth. Eliot is sharply observant of the romance and charm of gossip and hearsay over facts and there are two scenes, one on a streetcorner and the other in a local pub that are very acute and very funny, even if at B and Lydgate's expense. "Everybody liked better to conjecture how the thing was, than simply to know it; for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge, and had a more liberal allowance for the incompatible."

Also Mrs. Dollop is hilarious (and scary) on her view of the law and the purpose of it. "It's well known there's always two side, if no more; else who'd go to law, I should like to know?"

And so on to the last excrutiating humiliation of Bulstrode...... and Lydgate's downfall as he swirls in his wake.

But GE is no fool as a writer, she leaves a spark of hope with Dorothy Casaubon as she is told the story by Brooke and Farebrother at the books end.

The two temptations: Would they be Lydgate asking for money, Bulstrode encouraging Raffle's death. Did I miss some deeper things hiding behind those rather obvious ones?

On to the last book! I hope to dash through this today and tomorrow, but we will see.

25Donna828
dec 18, 2010, 12:07 pm

>18 labwriter:: Helllllooooooo, Becky!!! See Post #14! I'm alive and kickin' through to the end of MM TODAY. The next post from moi will be me patting myself on the back. ;-)

26labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 18, 2010, 12:53 pm

Lucy, what a really excellent summation and analysis, as usual.

Hi Donna, nice to see you here.

You have to love GE for creating such characters as Mrs. Dollop, who sums up the whole Book VII for us in "groundling-speak": "When a man's been 'ticed to a lone house, and there's them can pay for hospitals and nurses for half the country-side choose to be sitters-up night and day, and nobody to come near but a doctor as is known to stick at nothingk, and as poor as he can hang together, and after that so flush o' money as he can pay off Mr. Byles the butcher as his bill has been running on for the best o' joints since last Michaelmas was a twelvemonth--I don't want anybody to come and tell me as there's been more going on nor the Prayer-book's got a service for--I don't want to stand winking and blinking and thinking" (500).

Sometime back I read a biography of Luella Parsons, The First Lady of Hollywood: A Biography of Louella Parsons, by Samantha Barbas. Since Louella was a gossip by profession, the biographer included a good bit of research on the role of gossip in a community. Here's a quote from Barbas about "gossip":
There was a "pathbreaking" 1945 study by sociologist James West, a study of social norms and practices in rural, small-town America: gossip reinforces the community's moral codes--by repeatedly gossiping about adulterers, for example, townspeople reaffirm the value of marital fidelity. It also enables residents to escape potential condemnation for their own misdeeds. People report, suspect, laugh at, and condemn the peccadilloes of others and walk and behave carefully to avoid being caught in any trifling missteps of their own.

Historically, gossip has played an important role in small-town women's cultures. Women have used gossip to build emotional and social bonds with one another and to gain power and status with their communities. Lacking economic and political resources, many found gossip an important form of cultural capital that they could use to gain respect, attention, or leverage with powerful men.
--Just a little sidebar on the role of gossip and why people engage in it.

27sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 18, 2010, 1:06 pm

I've been musing a bit about that whole topic lately -- here I am in this wee community in nowheresville VT and really, there is almost no 'gossip' anymore. There is little hierarchy (as described in MM, although we have the town gazillionaire who does entertain us all with goings on) few central places where people can collect (we have no pub, no cafe, no diner). There is the library, the PO (which is kinda bleak), one mom&pop store (ditto, standing up at the coffee counter only) and the Town Office. There is a church -- I'm not even sure what denomination -- more or less Congregational -- and there is a stratum that attends, about the same number as frequent the library, I bet, and hardly overlapping. (I know as I work at the library a lot.) Anyhow the overlap is so minimal and interest groups are so separate..... Sure, plenty of folks know each other a little and the most scandalous or tragic news travels fast, but none of this kind of standing on the streetcorner broadcasting stuff happens anymore (except maybe at the Town Office....) People don't CARE like they used to, and they don't congregate in person. My point is that it is tricky now, to write a book that is set in a community that is believable, that is why 3 Pines seems a bit nostalgic and unreal .... My 'next' novel (don't worry chums, the first novel won't be in the ER ARC bag any time soon, if ever) is set in a rural village and I am pondering these matters. MM has been very very timely and thought-provoking in a special way for that reason.

Plus -- I think there are more and more people for whom this town is just a place to sleep -- they don't go to Town Meeting, they don't use the library, or shop at our little store unless they are totally desperate. They are totally oriented to wherever they work -- Burlington or Montpelier. It's kind of chilling actually. That HAS changed in the 30 years I've been here - the pop has doubled, but not the attendance at Town Meeting.......

28labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 18, 2010, 2:34 pm

Well, it sounds as though the seminal issue where you live is not that there's almost no gossip anymore; rather, it's that there is almost no community anymore.

In my little Tennessee community where I've done so much genealogy work, one of the big draws of the country store (in the 1930s) was the radio. The store was the first in the community to have one, so the store was strengthed as the default disseminator of news from the outside. The store also housed the post office, where people got news from family or received their Montgomery Wards catalog.

One of the "reasons" for community is to help dispel isolation, and what you have competing against that is the virtual community of the Internet. You yourself are a good example: I'm sure you feel less islolated because you have this like-minded community at LT to fall back on, rather than looking for sympatico people at the library or the church or the diner.

The church--that's another thing--you say you don't know the denomination of the church in your town. I can't imagine anyone in Dorothy Canfield Fisher's time being able to make that same statement. But it's perfectly natural for you to make it, and even to see people who attend the church as "other": you note that the group who attends church don't overlap with the group who use the library, for example--that's a pretty telling statement of how you view those who attend church (which isn't meant as a criticism of how you see them, not at all, but it is quite interesting that that would be the observation you would make about the people who attend church). As our communities become more secular, I think we have to also accept that they also become less "communal." The church really was the kingpin of the community--remove that and the community either ceases to exist or needs to find a replacement.

When I go on roadtrips, for some reason I always stop at McDonald's. I'm always blown away when I pass through a small town, no matter what state I'm in, by the number of people, at all times of the day, that are sitting around just having coffee, yakking it up together. Starbucks, on the other hand, with WiFi in every store, has individuals glued to their laptops. The world is definitely changing.

29LizzieD
dec 18, 2010, 3:44 pm

Very astute comments from the pair of you! My "Afterward" also stressed the role of the community and gossip as providing a milieu in which Dorothea may stand out as exceptional. And after all, the subtitle is "A Study of Provincial Life."
I know those groups in McDonald's, Becky, because my uncle was a regular at our Burger King. My generation, now retired or retiring, doesn't seem to have picked that habit up: certainly not me because of community here at LT. On some other hand, church revenue for next year has dropped substantially from this year, and I live on the buckle of the Bible Belt where the church remains a unifying element in the community.
And Lucy, I didn't see beyond the two temptations that you named, so I'll sit and wait for enlightenment......

30sibylline
dec 18, 2010, 6:10 pm

And to add insult to injury Becky, the new library is in the second, long ago deconsecrated church that I know was Baptist. To be clear also, there are some folks, btw, who go to church and use the library (and vice versa!) and some of them are extremely well read and we all get along just fine. But there are layers of community here that don't interact well at all. Lots of bitterness and resentments. But the worst scorn of both older and newer residents is reserved for those who have nothing to do with the town. Less than 10% of the pop shows up for town meeting and even when we disagree we are there, and that is a bond. I do a lot and am involved and so am part of what community there is...... same for spousal unit who serves on all sorts of ghastly town committees.

31sibylline
dec 18, 2010, 6:11 pm

I came here to say I have FINISHED MM -- I read most of the day. But I have to go out for dinner. So I'll be back later!!!!!!!!

32LizzieD
dec 18, 2010, 7:08 pm

Hearty Congratulations, and eat well!!!

33Donna828
dec 18, 2010, 7:31 pm

I must have been reading right along with you, Lucy. I'm finished too. Doing the happy dance while patting myself on the back. That's not easy to do!

I decided to stay with my previous rating of 4.5 stars from my first reading of MM in 2000. I loved it, but thought it was too long and Dorothea was too idealistic and perfect to seem real to me. Not to say that I didn't like her. In fact, one of my favorite lines comes from Dodo at the beginning of Book 8, Ch. 72..."What do we live for, if it is not to make life less difficult to each other?" Kind of a variation of the Golden Rule and such a simple line, but if we all lived our lives this way, what a pleasant world this would be...at least in our everyday interactions with each other.

The writing was stellar throughout the book. I have pages and pages of notes, a few colored tabs for my very favorite quotations, and a big smile on my face that I'm done and can move on now. I usually don't want my books wrapped up so neatly at the end, but after spending so much time with this book, it was satisfying to get some closure in the Finale.

I've been enjoying the gossip/sense of community discussion above. For the record, I spent much of Thanksgiving week at the hospital with my SIL (who had open-heart surgery) with lots of visitors coming in from her approximately 700 pop. town of Purdy, MO...and I can attest that gossip is alive and well in southwest Missouri! I think the "hot spots" for that crowd are hospital waiting rooms, church dinners, and funerals.

I was also struck by how shamed the characters affected by the scandal towards the end were. Don't you think that with all the disreputable behavior that we are privy to on a regular basis on television news and in the newspapers that we have become collectively immune to a sense of disgrace...at least on a public level? I'll keep following the chat as long as we want to talk about the book. Good job, everyone...and good luck to those still reading it.

34alcottacre
dec 18, 2010, 11:31 pm

Congratulations to Lucy and Donna on finishing the book today!

35souloftherose
dec 19, 2010, 5:26 am

I have finally finished too! I got very behind schedule with this read and so have also just caught up on 130 posts on these threads!

I really enjoyed this and was sorry not to be able to contribute much over the last couple of weeks.

I found the scenes between Rosamund and Lydgate absolutely excruciating to read. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments about Rosamund and her passive aggression.

In the end it seemed to me like the happiest couple were Fred and Mary. With Dorothea and Ladislaw a close second but I agree that I could never really see quite what was so amazing about Ladislaw. And poor Lydgate, it didn't really end well for him. I've found myself speculating on what would have happened if he had married Dorothea instead...

36sibylline
dec 19, 2010, 8:17 am

Great thoughts, Heather! What I found myself thinking about yesterday (feeling frustrated too, that I had to wait to post my wrap up) that the book is such a meditation on marriage -- on different kinds of marriages -- and how much it affects how a person's adult life 'turns out' -- And not just the young 'uns, but the older Garths, Vincys, Celia and James, the Cadwalladers, Bulstrodes etc. -- GE is so firm on the 'medicinal' value of the ability to make that 'leap' of empathy and, in marriage, that commitment to at least coming part way towards meeting the needs of another.

I also found myself musing on how there is a little Rosy in me -- "Why me????????? Why are you doing this to meeeee????????" I've had my Rosy moments....... But each of these marriages contains pieces of things I recognize from the better and worse times of my own 29 years as a married person (This year I cross the line to being married longer than I was single, as I was 28 when I married). That is passion, both sexual and of minds (D and W), conflict over allocation of assets and adjustment and acceptance of parts of your spouse that aren't at all as you would like (I'm being polite!) that would be (L and R) and loyalty, friendship and deep affection (Fred and Mary) --

I was also thinking that Eliot is pushing the envelope gently past the obsession with courtship, with ending novels with the marriage (this is something Forster addresses in Aspects of the Novel in an interesting way). She is aiming for a much bigger portrait of the institution and how it works within society and for individuals.

I was really struck too by the Bulstrodes -- he had been good to Harriet, and she makes the choice to 'stand by her man' knowing she didn't have to do it. Certainly Eliot seems to strongly suggest that compassion is an amazing force for good -- in that way Dorothy is a bit flattened as a character, as she 'represents' that force a bit too fully. Her ability to even reach into the soul of someone as weak and shallow as Rosamond is meant to show that.

Oh dear I am rambling and rambling! I may come back to do a chapter by chapter, but maybe not. I would also like to read one or two of the essays in the back of the Norton edition. James Stephens and one of the the feminist views I think. I just needed to do this and ramble on a bit about the things I was thinking yesterday.

37sibylline
dec 19, 2010, 8:54 am

I'm back to add a link, although I should wait, probably, until I do a round-up. However, at the beginning of LXXX (483 in my norton) there is a reference to Gilbert White -- he wrote The Natural History of Selborne which was THE FIRST book of its kind, a sensation really, of closely observed natural phenomena, but also written in an intimate and accessible way, the first true 'nature' writing that has spawned (in a good way) the nature writing we all love today, from Bernd Heinrich to Annie Dillard. It's a remarkable book -- and one of the few that GE mentions. She was so incredibly with it! It's a great read if you like those kinds of books. Truly a marvel. So anyway here is a link to an interesting blog: here

38alcottacre
dec 19, 2010, 9:29 am

#37: That is cool about the Gilbert White book - I downloaded that one to my Nook for free a couple of months ago. I have not read it yet though. Maybe this will spur me on!

39souloftherose
dec 19, 2010, 10:03 am

#36 "Certainly Eliot seems to strongly suggest that compassion is an amazing force for good" Yes, that's a very good point Lucy although I'm not sure I understand what you mean about Dorothea being 'flattened'? I thought the way Harriet Bulstrode behaved was marvellous and not what I was expecting from her. Compare that with our dear Rosamund?!

Re Mr Bulstrode, I think someone mentioned on the previous thread that the storyline involving Mr Bulstrode and Raffles seemed very Dickensian and I agree but I thought that Dickens would have made Bulstrode a lot less sympathetic or he'd have reformed him completely whereas Eliot showed Mr B as a weak person but not that far away from any of us despite what he did. (Not sure if that makes sense?) It's been a while since I read any Dickens so I might be wrong but although Dickens does write fantastic characters I remember them as being either good or bad, with not much in between.

40sibylline
dec 19, 2010, 12:41 pm

Oh -- I always talk about flat and round characters -- if a character 'represents' something, that makes them less complex, less rounded -- all from E.M. Forster's Aspects of the Novel a book which is a bit of a fetish item with me.

41souloftherose
dec 19, 2010, 3:30 pm

#40 Ah, ok. Wishlisted the Forster...

42labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 20, 2010, 9:37 am

Book VIII: Sunset and Sunrise

Even though the caravan seems to have moved on, I'll post some random musings here about Book VIII as I continue reading this week.

>36 sibylline:. Agreed, where earlier novelists ended their stories with marriage (Austen and Charlotte Bronte--"Reader, I married him"), that's where Eliot's story takes off. It's interesting to note that the two marriages that most spectacularly fail are those of her most realized characters--Dorothea and Ladislaw. The "good" marriages are found within her Greek chorus.

In Chapt. LXXV, Rosamond continues to be Rosamond. She has decided that Ladislaw would have made a better husband for her than Lydgate, although Eliot's narrator tells us this: "No notion could have been falser than this, for Rosamond's discontent in her marriage was due to the conditions of marriage itself, to its demand for self-suppression and tolerance, and not to the nature of her husband" (520). I'm thinking that Eliot must have had a narcissist in her life, to have so perfectly drawn this portrait. Rosamond dreams up a little romance for herself: that Will Ladislaw would always "be a bachelor and live near her, always to be at her command, and have an understood though never fully expressed passion for her, which would be sending out lambent flames every now and then in interesting scenes" (520). She is also quite sure that she will manipulate Ladislaw into leaving that "provincial town" and moving to London.

In Eliot's moral view--we've seen it time and again in the characters of Dorothea, the Garth's, the compassion of Mrs. Bulstrode to her husband, Mr. Farebrother's fidelity to his small flock, etc.--their sense of the inward life of other people is shown by Eliot to be an ultimate good, and the opposite, in people like Fred Vincy and Rosamond, is condemned as moral stupidity. Fred meets with less censure from Eliot because he is educable and redeemable. Rosamond, on the other hand, is hopeless. Her perfect unknowing unconcern for anyone else's inward life is, as Eliot shows, powerfully destructive. There will be no redemption for Rosamond.

43-Cee-
dec 20, 2010, 9:46 am

I'm finishing today unless the world ends first!

Love the book and all the comments! Spending time reading LT threads is as good as reading books!

Be back to announce the good news later today...

44labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 20, 2010, 10:02 am

Hi Claudia. Nice to see you here.

Book VIII, Chapt. LXXVI

The contrast between Dorothea's reaction to Lydgate's troubles with Rosamond's couldn't be more stark. As we have come to expect from Dorothea, she gives him the benefit of the doubt, what he was hoping from Rosamond and naturally didn't get: "You have never done anything vile. You would not do anything dishonorable" (525). And we learn of the relief that Lydgate feels upon hearing these words, showing how Lydgate is being changed through his misfortunes, his arrogance being worn off: "it was something very new and strange in his life that these few words of trust from a woman should be so much to him" (525).

Dorothea argues for Lydgate staying in Middlemarch and working on the New Hospital that she will fund. Lydgate knows that Rosamond won't abide them remaining in the community.

Dorothea: "But when she saw the good that might come of staying--"

Lydgate: "She would not see it."

Lydgate blames himself for Rosamond's failings, as people living with narcissists so often do: "It is my fault; I ought to be more open" (528). Lydgate finds himself destroyed by his relationship with Rosamond. He no longer believes in himself, and hopelessly he sees "little chance" of doing anything besides leaving Middlemarch.

45phebj
dec 20, 2010, 10:51 am

I'm still plugging along. I finished Book VI last night but I'm planning to come back and read all the comments as I catch up so thanks for continuing to post.

46labwriter
dec 20, 2010, 11:06 am

So Claudia, Pat, --and I think Laura too (#21)--so glad to hear from you all who are like me, plugging along: the "faithful remnant." Heh. If I missed anyone it was completely unintentional. I don't know if I'll finish Book VIII this week, not because it doesn't hold my interest, but rather this is a week with so many other pulls on my time--probably like everyone else. If I don't finish the book this week, then surely I will next, since the week after Christmas is going to be quiet. It should be nice.

Anywho, I hope everyone is having a not-too-stressful Christmas week.

47labwriter
dec 20, 2010, 11:13 am

I just realized I was being very uninclusive in my wishes to all, and I don't mean to be. Whatever you might celebrate this time of year, I hope you enjoy the preparations for it and aren't too stressed out by them.

48alcottacre
dec 20, 2010, 11:28 am

I am still here reading the comments even though I have finished off the book :)

49labwriter
dec 20, 2010, 11:32 am

Thanks, Stasia!

50BookAngel_a
Bewerkt: dec 20, 2010, 11:42 am

I'm still here too, even though I finished. I've gotten so much more out of the book thanks to reading the comments here.

51sibylline
dec 20, 2010, 12:11 pm

I'm here too -- I want to read at least one of the essays in the back just to see. I mailed off all the 'family' gifts today, and I am feeling so unburdened.....

42 - Do you mean Lydgate, not Ladislaw as the second of the 'failed' marriages. (The first being D's first.)

I'm dying for more of you to finish, there are some interesting things in this last book that will be fun to discuss.

52labwriter
dec 20, 2010, 12:18 pm

>51 sibylline:. Yeah, Lydgate.

53labwriter
dec 20, 2010, 2:47 pm

Angela & Lucy, Hi--glad you're here.

54sibylline
dec 20, 2010, 5:52 pm

I'm reading the essay "What Rosy Knew: Language, Learning and Lore in Middlemarch" by Alan Shelston. I love the beginning where he talks about the fact that Minta Doyle in To the Lighthouse leaves Middlemarch, Vol 3 on the train ...... and quotes Minta as saying she 'did not believe that anyone really enjoyed reading Shakespeare." He looks at Woolf's purpose though, to draw parallels and attention and to create a link between her thinking and Eliot's..... There are parallels too between Mr. Ramsay and Casaubon.

Then Shelston moves into analyzing a couple of scenes, showing how cleverly Eliot embeds social commentary right into the way people talk to one another -- in this case the breakfast scene and interaction between Rosy, Fred and Mrs. Vincy. Fred, despite having flunked out, has learned a certain arrogant style, Rosy doesn't know the difference between Homer or slang, but she has the outer trappings of culture in music, poetry and literature without any of the deeper apprehension. the mother is proud of the fact that she can't really understand either of them! He writes: "Everyone has their own register, and each moves within the confines of his or her linguistic boundaries.'

In the latter part of this short essay he notes a couple of instances where the most significant communications take place without words - D and Casaubon's moment holding hands and the moment between Bulstrode and his wife Harriet (and I can think of several others that combine word with gesture, slightly lesser but not unimportant moments) and points out the irony that "this most verbally sophisticated of all English novels should achieve its most convincing human connections through gesture, through touch, and finally through silence."

55labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 20, 2010, 6:44 pm

>54 sibylline:. Good stuff, Sib. My notes say that the feminists don't much like Eliot. Their complaint is that Dorothea doesn't succeed--that none of Eliot's heroines do. What do you think?

I've been working all day getting ready for our low-key Christmas celebration later in the week, so now I'm going to sit down with a glass of mulled wine from one of our good Missouri vineyards and read another chapter of MM.

Chapt. LXXVII

Wherein Rosy sets off in her "pretty bonnet" to mail a letter to Ladislaw. Lots of high language from Eliot about Dorothea's nature. Dorothea sets off to visit Mrs. Lydgate where she finds Rosamond sitting, in tears, talking with Will Ladislaw. Ooops. Dorothea leaves a letter for Ladislaw and rushes out like her hair is on fire, going to find Celia at Freshitt Hall.

56sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 20, 2010, 7:43 pm

Oooo I like that, 'hair on fire' -- what I like about D is that she does experience 'normal' emotions and reactions - and then gropes her way towards actions that fit with her views (or philosophy or whatever).

Oh, for my part I think the feminists are being unreasonable. I think Eliot was describing her 'reality' -- what she thought was possible/likely for the time she was living in. I have no patience with people who don't know enough about the context within which a book was written without any grip on where on the spectrum that person's ideas fit into their own world. Few of us are truly visionary -- I'm sure I'm blind to a host of things that a hundred years from now people would shake their heads and declare me sadly bigoted and limited about. Even though, I think for my time, I'm pretty with it and thoughtful. Eliot was seriously with it for her day beyond the average aware of what might one day be possible for women if she pushed things as far as she could. She described -- made what WAS so clear, that is the first step always for change, to truly understand what IS. AND she held on also to something big that radical (not ordinary, like me) feminists like to sweep under the rug, the continuing overarching importance of compassion. Not as a 'woman's' special thing (Fred learns, Caleb has it, Lydgate learns etc) but as THE thing. She pushed her life farther than her fiction -- that is a significant clue too, I think that she thought further than she felt she could write. Now I have to go finish cooking dinner. HA HA

57tloeffler
dec 20, 2010, 8:54 pm

I am still reading, although I didn't read any of it last week when I was being Grandma, so I'm a "book" behind and had to just scroll through most of this thread to avoid spoilers. I really am enjoying it, although my problem with long books is that I get itchy to read something different. Ah, well. I should finish before the end of the year!

58-Cee-
dec 20, 2010, 9:59 pm

I FINISHED!!!! I finished, I finished... oh yeah, I finished!
**happy dance**
What a great, great book. I loved it.
I'm sorry I was always a bit behind and didn't contribute all that much. But I relished all your comments which made this a very memorable read. I always get so much more out of a book when others are involved. Especially great thinkers/observers like this group!

Just so happy I get to add this to my finished list. :D
It was long, but the story and the end was satisfying!
Did I mention I finished it????

59alcottacre
dec 21, 2010, 8:29 am

#58: Congratulations, Claudia!

60-Cee-
dec 21, 2010, 8:39 am

Thanks, Stasia! This group-read proves that LTers are a bunch of independents - to each their own speed - with a lot of thought provoking, hand-holding companionship. With all the holiday commotion (and the need to sneak in other books) even my slow progress was heartily encouraged. The book is amazing - the group is amazing! Special thanks to Becky and Lucy - the pair that beats a full house! :)

61labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 8:49 am

Hi Terri. Congrats, Claudia.

Chapt. LXXVIII

The scene with Will and Rosamond, after Dorothea leaves: "he had a horrible inclination to stay and shatter Rosamond with his anger" (536). Lydgate comes home and finds her ill.

Chapt. LXXIX

Dorothea's letter to Lydgate. Ladislaw meets Lydgate at his home. Will constrasts his behavior of turning down Bulstrode's money with Ladislaw's. Both imagine a future of "insipid misdoing and shabby achievement" (540).

Chapt LXXX.

Elliot has Dorothea "earnestly" interacting with the Middlemarchers, including dining at Mr. Farebrother's. Ladislaw is mentioned in glowing terms by Henrietta Noble, and Dorothea is forced to suddenly quit the Farebrothers, saying she is "overtired." At home she lay on the floor and sobbed, realizing "Oh, I did love him!" (542). At this point, I'm as out of patience with Dorothea as I was at the beginning of the book when she was over the moon about Mr. Casaubon.

Then the next morning, because it's Dorothea, we get the "dominant spirit of justice within her" overcoming the tumult of seeing Will and Rosamond together (544). She resolves to be "more helpful" to the union of Rosamond and Lydgate, and thus she sets off towards Middlemarch, determined to "save" Rosamond. Oh Lord.

62-Cee-
dec 21, 2010, 8:56 am

"thus she sets off towards Middlemarch, determined to "save" Rosamond. Oh Lord."

I know.
Spending the night weeping on a cold floor for love was perfect. But the very next day getting past all that to reach out to Rosamond?
Paahlleeeze! I loved every bit of Dorothea (St Theresa) - but this was a bit over the top even for a saint - n'est pas?

63labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 9:33 am

Chapt. LXXXI

Dorothea shows up at Lydgate's door. Lydgate tells Dorothea he has consented to her plan for the New Hospital; the check from Mr. Bulstrode for the loan of one thousand pounds is returned.

Dorothea's reason for the visit is quite different from what Rosamond had imagined: "your husband has warm friends who have not left off believing in his high character" (547).

Rosamond's reaction convinces Dorothea that "there might still be time to rescue {Rosamond} from the misery of false incompatible bonds" (549). Although, if we remember from a few chapters ago, Eliot tells us that it isn't the person she's married to that is Rosamond's problem, but rather her problem is with "the conditions of marriage itself" (post #42, Chapt. LXXV). For some reason, good people often believe they can rescue narcissists from their misery, but it never works.

Rosamond tells Dorothea that she has "been thinking something that is not true" about herself and Will Ladislaw (550).--"He has never had any love for me. . . . He said yesterday that no other woman existed for him but you" (550).

So has Rosamond been "converted"? Is she now a new and improved version of herself, "saved" by Dorothea? Probably not.

"With her usual tendency to overestimate the good in others, she felt a great outgoing of her heart towards Rosamond for the generous effort which had redeemed her from suffering, not counting that the effort was a reflex of her own energy" (551).

"Lydgate had accepted his narrowed lot with sad resignation. He had chosen this fragile creature, and had taken the burthen of her life upon his arms. He must walk as he could, carrying that burthen pitifully" (552). Lydgate can try for forty years to make this woman happy, but it will never happen. His is a life sentence.

64sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 10:09 am

You've certainly called it, B -- the key words being "...a reflex of her own energy" . Rosamond is literally pulled out of her usual self by the power of Dorothea's emotional field -- a fascinating moment. She is indeed a hollow person, incapable of movement on her own, but just as she can interpret music with guidance, at this moment, guided by Dorothea she rises above herself. Just the one time, GE makes it clear. R does a good thing, but I'm not sure she even fully recognizes why she did it, what inner urge possessed her. A moment that I think GE prepared us for for a long time, wanted us to see and is part of her 'philosophy' of human nature -- that it includes people who can help you rise above yourself -- the whole point, I guess, of the Theresa biz? Of course, it is a pretty small act, but one can assume Dorothea has that effect in small ways on the people around her for the rest of her life -- and that she is probably oblivious to it too.

Yah, I thought she was almost unbelievably quick in coming to terms with her disappointment, and yet, she's had practice.



65labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 10:19 am

Well, my take on it is that while the effect of what Rosamond did might have been to "do a good thing," her reason for doing it was typically Rosamond: she believes that Will thought ill of her--"he hates me because--because you mistook him yesterday," she says to Dorothea. So Rosamond tells Dorothea how Will really feels about her, and in so doing, Rosamond feels that Will "cannot reproach me anymore" (550). So despite what little good she might have done here, Rosamond's selfishness remains intact.

66Donna828
dec 21, 2010, 10:46 am

Happy Dancing with Claudia...and others who have finished MM. High fives and fist bumps all around!

And yes, Becky, I believe that Rosamond will always be looking out for No. One. This quote (Page 633 in my edition) exemplifies Rosamond through and through:

...there was but one person in Rosamond's world whom she did not regard as blameworthy, and that was the graceful creature with blond plaits and with little hands crossed before her, who had never expressed herself unbecomingly, and had always acted for the best--the best naturally being what she best liked.

67sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 11:02 am

Then what does GE mean by this?: "Dorothea's face had become animated, and as it beamed on Rosamond very close to her, she felt something like a bashful timidity before a superior, in the presence of this self-forgetful ardour. She said, with blushing embarrassment, 'Thank you you are very kind.'"

T...and this strange unexpected manifestation of feeling in a woman whom she had approached with a shrinking aversion and dread, as one who must necessarily have jealous hatred toward her, made her soul totter all the more with a sense that she had been walking in an unknown world which had just broken in upon her."

"What was the use of thinking about behaviour after this crying?"

"Rosamond, taken hold of by an emotion stronger than her own -- hurried along in a new movement which gave all things some new, awful, undefined aspect-could find no words, but involuntarily she put her lips to Dorothea's forehead whcih was very near her, and then for a minute the two women clasped each other as if they had been in a shipwreck."

Then she tells D. the truth of it "You are thinking what is not true," said Rosamond, in an eager half-whisper, while she was still feeling Dorothea's arms round her-urged by a mysterious necessity to free herself from something that oppressed her as if it were blood-guiltiness."

THAT is the key moment -- Rosamond has no understanding of it -- but moved by Dorothea in ways she is incapable of understanding she actually does say what needs to be said -- to her own amazement.

WITHIN SECONDS of this moment Rosamond begins to reconstruct her defenses and rationales, finding that it feels pretty darned good to 'punish' Will by repudiating him, and by the end of the interview, she is indeed her indefensible narcissistic self, albeit very fatigued and unusually shaken up, like a person waking from a very intense dream they can't quite remember. I can't think what else GE would have been
trying to do, how else she could show Dorothea's immense power for goodness than to have extracted this moment from Rosy, one of the most utterly self-centered creatures ever devised in literature?

68LizzieD
dec 21, 2010, 11:02 am

Happy Dancing for Completers! Courage Dancing for Perseverers!
And, Becky and Donna, I read the Rosy generosity exactly the same way. Dorothea's emotion probably helped spur her on, but the bottom line is to make herself look right to Will. And I think that "looking right" is the key, the in-all and be-all for Rosamond. She never tumbles to the fact that appearance is not reality.

69sibylline
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 11:09 am

I'm thinking this is very interesting -- most of you are a good deal more religiously inclined than I am -- and yet I see this as a very clear demonstration of a redemptive moment and of the power of a 'saintly' individual to pull a person toward the 'good' however briefly. Truly, none of you see this? It's meant to show the immensity of Dorothea's potential. Rosy justifies the action later, the only way she can, in her usual self-serving terms, but not while she is doing it, while she is speaking she is in the grip of something else.

70labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 11:14 am

>67 sibylline:. It may be the "key moment" for Dorothea, but I don't see how it's the key moment for Rosamond, if she has no understanding of it.

I think you're looking at it from Dorothea's point of view--yes, Dorothea's goodness extracted this "moment" from Rosamond. I'm looking at it from Rosamond's point of view--what's the point of a transient conversion experience? As you say, within seconds of this "moment," Rosamond is rationalizing her sad, selfish self. Rosamond isn't changed, and Dorothea has again overestimated the good in someone. And I'm not necessarily criticizing Dorothea for that--it's not always a bad thing to think better of someone than they deserve, although in the case of Casaubon, for example, Dorothea would have been in a world of hurt had the man lived.

71labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 11:19 am

>69 sibylline:. I think we cross-posted, Sib.

Well, here's what I think. Dorothea is deluded if she thinks she can change a person like Rosamond, although she may try. So how long does she continue to try? How many times does Dorothea go for the briefly redemptive moment in a person like Rosamond before she realizes that on some level she's wasting her life--wasting her goodness that could be better used elsewhere? How much of her life should she give to Rosamond-like lost causes before her own life begins to look to have little value?

72phebj
dec 21, 2010, 11:28 am

I just logged on to LT to see 13 new posts on this thread. I skimmed most of them because I'm not done but I'm very eager to finish up so I can read all your comments.

Congratulations on finishing, Claudia. Can't wait to join you!

73sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 11:30 am

It's neither of their view, it's Eliot's as their creator with purposes of her own in creating them and having them go through what they go through. I think it's meant to be HUGE that Dorothea could affect even someone as impossible as Rosamond, the implication being that this might be the one time in her life that R, acts 'naturally' not thinking of how she looks, but simply moved to do what is right.

Here's a question or two? If this moment had caused Rosamond to literally save someone's life in a concrete physical way would you feel differently? Would that be redemptive? She does, by her act, 'save' Dorothea's love for Will from dying and D. from a great deal of misery. I think GE would happily discuss the question of whether a moral act only counts if all the motives for it are understood by the actor and have deeper meaning.

I've found this to be a constant theme in this novel, appearance over depth - and the difficulty knowing where the one begins and the other ends, in terms of what motivates people -- but maybe no one else has?

I think I am coming at this from the angle of asking what is GE's PURPOSE, what is the point of this scene. What does she want us to take away from it? It's too near the end, too worked for, not to have a great deal of significance to the overall themes and purpose of the novel.

74labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 11:36 am

Just another thought about Dorothea, along the same lines as my other posts. If Dorothea can't learn to discern the worthy causes from the lost causes, then her imaginative ideal towards "the good" is going to have little effect. And isn't this Dorothea's flaw, at least up to this point in the novel: her idealistic and abstract vision of the world? She's generous and altruistic and sympathetic; she desires the good--but she doesn't know what it is. She's backing Lydgate, thinking he's worthy of her backing, but does she really "know" that he's all that he says he is? She has faith that he's a good man, but he could just as easily have been in cahoots with Bulstrode--and how would she have known the difference?

Anywho, I have about 25 pages to go in my edition. I need to move on with my morning, but this is a good discussion. Thanks, Sib.

75labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 11:41 am

>73 sibylline:. We cross-posted again.

I think I am coming at this from the angle of asking what is GE's PURPOSE, what is the point of this scene. What does she want us to take away from it?

OK, this is snarky. I know it's snarky. But I have to say it, just the same, with perfect love in my heart for you, Sib. So now you're trying to discern the author's INTENT? Haha.

76sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 11:43 am

True, she doesn't know, any more than any of us 'know' anyone -- although she has had a few experiences with Lydgate, from the time of Casaubon's illness up to his outpouring to her that I think would give credence to her belief in him. Yes, he could be lying, but it is very unlikely. You have to also assume that in the context of their life in Middlemarch, they see and hear and observe each other more than just the encounters that we see..... another angle is that she has, for example, Farebrother's high opinion of Lydgate to back up her own opinion and observations and experience.

Now I really really need to stop this and go DO SOMETHING!!! Except isn't doing this exactly right when reading as significant a book as this is!

77sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 11:53 am

Sure! I can't think of a single serious writer who doesn't put their purpose, what drives them, front and center -- it's embedded in every aspect of what they write, every choice they make of what to include from words to events. It can be as slight a purpose as entertainment all the way up to illuminating the human soul. GE certainly is a writer striving toward the latter and as such I have a perfect right, even an obligation to try to understand her purpose. Even if I am wrong, I should try. Has someone told you that is off-limits? I'm utterly baffled.

78labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 12:39 pm

>77 sibylline:. No, I think I'm the one who's utterly baffled. We had a discussion about "authorial intent" back on the second thread of our MM group read. You were responding in post #173 to something I'd said about what I thought Eliot was doing with the character of Dorothea (#163, thread 2).

#173, thread 2. Lucy: Authorial intent, that's another biggie. I've read bits and pieces of the letters and stuff in the back of my book but I couldn't possibly say what Eliot's intent is (my emphasis). I can only speculate based on various clues in the text."

#174, thread 2. Becky: (and this is where I accused you, Lucy, of jerking my chain). "Of course we can only speculate on what Eliot is doing. I don't have a crystal ball hooked up to a time machine, and neither do you. But if you're not even going to speculate on what Eliot's doing, then, I will say again, why bother reading Eliot? Of course, you can speculate and come up with X; I can speculate and come up with Y. We may not agree on our conclusions, but neither one of us is necessarily right or wrong. Although, the other thing we can do is go to the text and say, "Well, Lucy, here is where I find Eliot doing such-and-such, and that's why I conclude what I do. But you know this--and so do I. Having a little bit of fun with me tonight, aren't you sibyx?"

So now you come back in #77 in high dudgeon about "your perfect right, even an obligation to try to understand her purpose."

And I was having a little bit of fun with you for being inconsistent about authorial intent. That's all. I think we actually pretty much agree.

79-Cee-
dec 21, 2010, 1:11 pm

Well! If I were to go as deeply into the book as you ladies have done, I'd have to read it again and again... and would probably change my rating from 4.5 to 5 stars.
I have to admit I only took it down a notch cuz of the politics which distracted me a little too much from all the rest of Eliot's rich offerings in this book.

Lucy & Becky, I think Eliot is chuckling in her grave - quite satisfied that in 2010 her book is still discussed with ardor and making such an impact. No matter which way you interpret it... it's good stuff!

80LizzieD
dec 21, 2010, 2:08 pm

Authorial intent! I'm having real trouble, St. Theresa or not, with understanding GE to use Dorothea as a redeemer in a religious sense. D. certainly goes into her talk with R. with the intention of untangling the relationships (which she doesn't understand) among the R, TL, WL triangle. Having read the passage again, she seems to me to be saying to Rosy that no matter how hard it is, she should let WL go because she knows that perfoming her duty is right and doing right makes for a better life in the long run. That's a far cry from seeking to change R from a selfish little dink into a mensch. D. doesn't know R, so she gives her far more credit as a rational being than she deserves. (St. Theresa, btw, would probably say that even the lowest of the low is worthy of conversion, and only conversion has the power to change a person's fundamentals.) Rosamond is moved by D's emotion, but if she has a pure motive to ease D's mind, it's only for a moment. Her second sentence is, "And now I think he hates me, ...." It's all about the Rose, just as it's always been about the Rose.

81sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 2:25 pm

*she wants to crawl under the bed and suck her thumb and stare at cobwebs and dustbunnies* . Me and my big mouth! OK so I've been hoisted by my own petard. Will someone tell me what the point of all the St. Therea stuff is???? Anyhow I'm not arguing about the Rose -- I am just trying to figure out what the point of that scene, which, you all have to admit gets a lot of play, might be. Maybe it has no point? Dorothea is certainly caught up there in her own high-flown rhetoric (what we call in this house, being in love with the sound of your own voice, and something that does happen to, ahem, yours truly upon occasion) and certainly is clueless about the real Rosy. I just find that moment where Rosy kisses Dorothea impulsively and they cling to one another to be one of the core 'explosions' of the novel. Maybe it was just a nothing, a plot turn, nothing more. It is certainly human to try to give meaning to meaninglessness! So forgive me all.

82labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 3:28 pm

Well, if you don't mind, I'd like to wait until I finish the book before I say more about this. Maybe when I get to the end I'll feel differently about Dorothea and Eliot.

>81 sibylline:. Oh Sib, you make me laugh. I thought sure in #75 you would remember what I was referring to and we would both have a chuckle about it and that would be the end of it. But I guess it made more of an impression on me that it did on you. Heh. I was going to just let it go, but then you came back at me in #77 like Emily Litella (one of my all-time favorites)--so I just had to find the quote.

83sibylline
dec 21, 2010, 5:01 pm

Yep, that's me!

84labwriter
dec 21, 2010, 6:29 pm

I loved Gilda. She wrote a memoir before she died, It's Always Something that I really enjoyed.

85BookAngel_a
dec 21, 2010, 7:28 pm

I was thinking about how someone said Dorothea is always overestimating the good in other people. It's true. Now that I think of it, she really does.

But...is that a bad thing? I'm asking tentatively because I do that from time to time myself...

When you believe in the good of others, you are opening yourself up to being hurt or used. So that's the downside - it comes with a risk. But I believe at times that attitude can encourage good qualities in others. I think Eliot mentioned at the end of the book that Dorothea didn't change the world...but she had a very positive impact on those around her.

I admire that. I would like to be like that. And I'd rather be known for that than the alternative - underestimating the good in others!

86-Cee-
Bewerkt: dec 21, 2010, 7:42 pm

>81 sibylline: "Maybe it has no point"

Ha! :)
I got in BEEEG trouble when I said that to one of my English teachers in high school once (only once). Ah, yes! I was soooo tired of her beating a dead horse (wish I could remember the book now).
When she asked me what the point of something was... I said... (see above).
It wasn't one of my better choices that day. :(

87labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 8:45 am

I hope to finish this book today, but who knows? So far it's been a h.e.l.l. of a morning.

I'm the kind of person, probably like most people here, who takes reasonably good care of their books. This is my Norton edition of Middlemarch, read twice now. This book is a sad mess, and it's my main complaint about these Norton editions--they don't hold up. Oh well. It's a well-loved book, at any rate.

88sibylline
dec 22, 2010, 8:59 am

I LOVE that picture! I'm a notorious spine-breaker, despite having a library degree. (I also specialize in over-due books, but apparently that is a librarian specialty -- why we go into the biz!)

Lovely comment Angela!

Oh boy, Claudia! Memorable moment indeed!

89labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 9:46 am

I guess I'll continue to post what weakly pass for summaries of these chapters. I don't know if anyone finds them useful or not. I do, so that's why I continue to do it. I will try to keep the summaries brief, since, like others here, I would also like to "pat myself on the back" for finishing this thing.

Chapt. LXXXII

This chapter is all about Will Ladislaw. I guess at this point I can say this: I think Ladislaw is a weak character with very little about him to admire, and the fact that Eliot pairs him with Dorothea here weakens the ending, IMO. I have to admit to feeling very little interest or curiosity about his character or anything that he's doing at this point, which may be one reason why I'm finding myself slogging through this last part. I know what's coming, and I just don't care. Having said that, I will note that most critics of Middlemarch do not share my point of view.

Then we have this quotation, which I think also goes to what Sib and Peggy have posted about, above. Just what is the deal with Dorothea and the St. Theresa thing? It seems in the earlier chapter that Eliot wanted to give her a scene with Rosamond, showing Dorothea "redeeming" her; and now there's this quote towards the end of the chapter: "But it is given to us sometimes even in our everyday life to witness the saving influence of a noble nature, the divine efficacy of rescue that may lie in a self-subduing act of fellowship" (554).

I think to help understand what Eliot's doing here, we have to look at Positivitism, the secular "religion" developed by Compte that emphasized reason and logic. It was his belief that religious passion could be converted into a (secular) social form. Eliot believed in the usefulness of literature--that it could be used to teach us about becoming better people, and she often inserts messages in her novels about the brotherhood of man and the perfectibility of relationships. I think much of what this novel is "about" is Eliot exploring Positivism's ideals. Compte assumed that human behavior must obey certain laws--laws just as strict as those found in the natural world, like Newton's gravity, for example. If we could only discover those laws, then human beings could eliminate moral evils. One of these central moral laws is the concept altruism and "duty," which of course we see is a great preoccupation of Dorothea's.

I hate to bring this in here, because it involves looking outside the novel for an answer to what Eliot is "doing," and maybe most people would rather not do that. However, I'm just not sure it's possible to understand parts of this thing unless we also look at the Victorian world and what was preoccupying Eliot's mind.

We're left at the end of the chapter with a forshadowing of a future meeting between Will and Dorothea, which we always knew was coming. Bleh.

90BookAngel_a
Bewerkt: dec 22, 2010, 9:59 am

I always find your comments useful. They help me to glean more from my reading, even if I've already finished the book. The reading is still fresh in my mind.

It seems that you don't like these characters very much - or at least not the main ones.

91labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 10:07 am

Auguste Compte and Positivism, by John Stuart Mill. This was published in 1866. Middlemarch was first published in 1871. Unfortunately none of my anthologies have anything about Positivism by Mill, but even better, this is available online at Project Gutenberg.

I've given this issue just a very superficial gloss here. It would be so easy to spend an entire semester on Eliot and her influences. I think this is why it's so hard in places to "get" what Eliot was doing. She was wise and broad-minded, and interested in exploring these big ideas--and she used her fiction to do that.

Anywho, on to the next Chapter.

92labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 10:10 am

>90 BookAngel_a:. You're right, Angela. I don't much like Dorothea, I don't like Will, and I sure don't like Rosamond. I think I would be bored out of my mind if I had to spend a day with Dorothea. I wouldn't mind spending time with Lydgate, however. I think he's an interesting character. Even Casaubon was interesting, in his own limited way. Dorothea and Will, as a couple, leave me cold.

93BookAngel_a
Bewerkt: dec 22, 2010, 10:17 am

Once you mentioned it, I realized that the readers are not given much reason to respect Will Ladislaw. We only get to know him through Dorothea's thoughts and from his passion for her. We never get to see if he is truly worthy.

What we were shown was not much, but it was enough for me, being a romantic at heart and a bit too willing to trust in the good of others. I can easily see where their characters would fall flat for others, though.

Rosamund? Yuck. Bulstrode was not utterly repulsive to me, which surprises me. I disliked him, but I found the peek into his thought processes interesting.

94labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 22, 2010, 10:55 am

Chapt. LXXXIII

At long last, THE BIG MEETING between Dorothea and Will.

Dorothea is angry at herself for her "childish restlessness" which tends to manifest itself in long walks (555). She finds "nothing" that needs doing in the village. So she sits down in her library to read books on how to spend money on her neighbors in order to do them the most good.

Is it just me, or does Dorothea's largesse about the "little people" of the village come across as just a bit condescending?

But, not to worry, Dorothea can't keep her mind on her books either. I know that Eliot highly approves of Dorothea, but does it seem to anyone else that in this first long paragraph of the chapter that Eliot is humorously mocking her? --maybe "the geography of Asia Minor" was just the thing to calm her restless mind?

Oh good, Miss Noble interrupts with an announcement (now where did she come from, with her beaver-like noises and inarticulate sounds?): little Miss Noble announces Will Ladislaw, who fears he has offended and begs for an interview. How could she possibly say "No" to little Miss Noble.

Will is grateful for the interview; Dorothea is fervid. There is "something like a sob" that escapes from him when he kisses Dorothea's hand.

Dorothea speaks of "how the trees are tossed." The interview lags. Will asks for them to speak to each other "without disguise."--Cue the vivid flash of lightening! Dorothea darts from the window! Will seizes her hand spasmodically!

Will: "There is no hope!"

Dorothea's lips tremble, as do Will's. Which lips were the first to move towards the other? It is never known.

The rain dashes; the wind swoops. Thoughts are full.

Will discovers his life maimed; he finds Dorothea cruel. Unkind misery! His love is no trifle. Dorothea trembles. Will is bitter: I can only sell myself as a mere pen and a mouthpiece!

Dorothea's heart is possessed by difficult thoughts.

Will: "Goodbye!"
Dorothea: "Oh, I cannot bear it! I hate my wealth!"

Dorothea, great tears rising in flood of young passion, with large, tear-filled eyes.

Dorothea: "I want so little. I will learn what everything costs."

Hilarious, and also embarrassing. It's little wonder that critics of Eliot cringe at the ending of her masterpiece.

Bulwer-Lytton comes to mind: "It was a dark and stormy night." Do you know the Bulwer-Lytton contest, for the worst first line in literature? Hilarious.

95phebj
dec 22, 2010, 11:16 am

Even though I haven't finished and so am not reading comments on the chapters I haven't gotten to yet, I am very much looking forward to coming back and reading all these posts once I catch up.

Becky, I loved the picture of your copy of Middlemarch--very well loved, indeed!

96Donna828
dec 22, 2010, 11:18 am

>92 labwriter:: Thank you, Becky, for having the guts to say what I've been thinking...

I think I would be bored out of my mind if I had to spend a day with Dorothea.

I loved this book as a whole, but could not bring myself to rate it 5 stars because of Dorothea's feeble desire "to do good." Just do it, Woman, and don't talk about it! Not only did she come across as condescending and a "goody-two-shoes" character, she was weak in fulfilling her lofty and nebulous desires. I like my women strong...and interesting. Give me Mary Garth or even Mrs. Cadwallader any day!

97labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 11:29 am

Chapt. LXXXIV

Mrs. Cadwallader and Celia set the first scene for this chapter, all together at Freshitt Hall, home of Sir James.

Mr. Brooke announces to all that Dorothea is to be married again. At the announcement of the news, Celia is frightened; Sir James is white with anger. "Merciful heavens," says Mrs. Cadwallader. Sir James thinks it would have been better if he had called out Ladislaw and shot him.

Eliot has the foolish Mr. Brooke saying that Ladislaw is a "remarkable fellow." I'm not quite sure what we're supposed to make of that. Sir James thinks that Dorothea is "degrading" herself for marrying Ladislaw--he takes her out of her "proper rank." He's a man of little principle and light character, says Sir James.

Oh dear, Dorothea and Ladislaw will have to learn to live on 700 a year (remembering that Fred Vincy and Mary will live on 80).

Celia decides to go to Lowick to try to influence her sister against the marriage. Celia tells Dodo that she has disappointed everyone. What Celia has to say falls on deaf ears.

98LizzieD
dec 22, 2010, 11:32 am

Good stuff, Becky! (Do I ever know It was a Dark and Stormy Night! I have at least 3 of their year's best collections and have always wanted to enter the contest.)
I've been trying to think about what St. Theresa would have meant to GE. Paging quickly through my Gordon Haight bio of GE (which I may be forced to read now, damn it. I had no plans to look at this anytime soon.), I find that she had an early period of belief among "General Baptists" but that she let this go. (Haven't pursued this.) By the time she was writing Mill on the Floss (which shows "little sign of Positivism"), she was friends with Richard and Maria Congreve, who were followers of Comte. I'll quote the little passage, "The extent of George Eliot's concern with Positivism has been greatly exaggerated. Most of her references to it occur in her letters to Mrs. Congreve, which must be read in the light of the strong emotional involvement between them. To her feelings the Religion of Humanity appealed strongly; but she could never bring her reason to unqualified acceptance of it: 'I cannot submit my intelligence or my soul to the guidance of Comte.'" and later --- "W.M. Simon, who has made the most thorough study of the subject, finds in all her works only a handful of brief passages that will bear any sort of Positivist interpretation, the principal one being the poem, 'O May I Join the Choir Invisible'." So much for Haight, editor of her letters for Yale.
On the other hand, it seems to this reader in her ignorance that a more general religion of humanity obtains in this work than something specifically Christian. And I still think that as St. Theresa was known best for her mysticism (although she also was tireless in founding convents), so Dorothea is praised for her greatness of soul and caring in herself as opposed to her influence on other people. I don't feel any intended condescension in either D's or GE's part as D seeks to spend her money for the poor, but I wouldn't fight about it.
Anyway, I have been greatly enlivened by this conversation, and now I really do fear I have to read this Penguin small-print-for-565 pages biography. Thanks a lot!
Oh! And I see in the index that Casaubon is to be pronounced "Ca SAW bon" - not what I have been saying in my mind!

99labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 12:08 pm

Chapt. LXXXV

Bulstrode "withers" under preparations to leave Middlemarch. His wife, a good woman, stands by him. Bulstrode decides that sometime, perhaps when he is dying, he will tell her all.

Has anyone else ever had that fantasy--what would I (or wouldn't I!) say on my deathbed? I have, although from what I know of deathbed scenes, it doesn't happen often that the people dying are very talkative. I don't mean to be glib about it--but just to say, maybe it's not the best strategy to wait until death to say what we have to say.

Bulstrode has the grace to feel "deep distress" at his wife's suffering. Bulstrode asks her to tell him--anything--if there's something he wishes her to do. She would like to help Lydgate, and she grieves that Lydgate will not accept help from them, sending back the 1,000 pound check. Bulstrode suggests that she give the management of Stone Court to her nephew Fred Vincy. It must come from her, he says, since Caleb Garth will have nothing to do with him.

Chapt. LXXXVI

This chapter begins with Caleb Garth and his daughter Mary. She tells her father that her feelings haven't changed about Fred, even thought they must wait for each other a long while before they can marry.

Caleb tells Mary about her aunt's wanting to do a good thing for Fred--that Fred will go to live at Stone Court and manage the land. Caleb tells Mary she knows she can keep Fred "in order" once they are married.

Mary tells Fred the good news.

Finale

Fred and Mary achieve a solid mutual happiness. Eliot sums up their life together very sweetly.

Lydgate's hair "never became white," since he died in his fifties. He always regarded himself as a failure; he had not done what he had meant to do. Rosamond never left off being Rosamond.

Dorothea is always to feel that there was always something better than she might have done, if only she had known better. Will became an "ardent public man," so theirs was a match made in heaven, although Eliot wouldn't put it that way. When Dorothea has a son, Sir James relents, and the sisters are reconciled: "Where women love each other, men learn to smother their mutual dislike."

Mr. Brooke lived to a good old age; his estate was inherited by Dorothea's son.

Eliot ends the book by letting her readers know that the "growing good of the world" is dependent on people like Dorothea and their unhistoric acts.

Hooray--Basta!

100labwriter
dec 22, 2010, 12:13 pm

>98 LizzieD:. Oh, Peggy--wonderful stuff about Eliot and Positivism. And I agree with you, I'm sure Dorothea didn't intend condescension.

I wish you well with the Penguin (what else?) small-print biog of Eliot. I have two Eliot biogs on my shelf, both unread. Sigh.

101sibylline
dec 22, 2010, 3:09 pm

So beautifully done! A wonderful job in concluding your read Becky and also Peggy. What fascinating stuff about the Positivism aspect of things. I think the person I'd like to spend time with is Mrs. Cadwallader! I definitely definitely want to read a bio of Eliot now, but not quite this minute. Luckily I do not own one.....!!!! When I buy one I will make sure of decent print, you can bet on that.

102labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 22, 2010, 3:19 pm

Hi Sib. Yes, wouldn't Mrs. Cadwallader be fun to sit down with to tea?

And Peggy, when I said "what else," I meant--what else would a Penguin book be but small print. Yikes, I used to dive right into those without a second thought, but now I find them quite daunting.

Also, Peggy, thanks for the link. I have that book as well. I absolutely love it for times when I need a good laugh. I'm sure as a teacher you understands the value in the assignment to "write badly." Love it.

103BookAngel_a
dec 22, 2010, 5:02 pm

At first I thought Mrs. Cadwallader was mean/intimidating. Later I realized she was actually quite funny - and she doesn't seem to be mean, just truthful.
It would definitely be fun to take tea with her.

104labwriter
Bewerkt: dec 22, 2010, 7:22 pm

The two biogs on my shelf of Eliot are:

George Eliot A Life by Rosemary Ashton. I think this is the Penguin edition that Peggy referred to. It was published in 1996.

The second one is George Eliot: The Emergent Self, by Ruby V. Redinger, 1975.

I'm sorry to say I can't recommend them because I haven't read either one, but just skimming through each one, I would say they both look pretty good.

Eliot was born in 1819, around the same time as Mary Todd Lincoln and Harriet Beecher Stowe--to put her in context a little bit.

105LizzieD
dec 22, 2010, 11:40 pm

Actually, Becky, I wish I had the Ashton, but my Penguin is George Eliot: A Biography by Gordon Haight. The two reviews praise it highly as the best of the scholarly bios. It was published in 1968 or '9, and I haven't started it yet. We'll see.....

106labwriter
dec 23, 2010, 9:12 am

Well, Peggy, that's another resource then. Thanks!

107sibylline
dec 23, 2010, 11:20 am

I'll polk around to see which one suits me best -- I like a mix of personal and I guess 'critical' some lean too much one way or the other and I like a balance.

108souloftherose
dec 26, 2010, 12:10 pm

#54-56 Some good thoughts ladies. Lucy, where did you get your essays from? Are they in your edition of MM?

#85 I think that's my view of D too Angela.

#89 I also found Ladislaw a surprisingly weak character given he's sort of the main love interest for D.

#104 Rosemary Ashton wrote the introduction and notes for my edition of MM (Penguin Classics) so I'm hoping to get her biography of GE out of the library at some point. What I'm still trying to decide is whether I should read GE's other major works before reading a biography or read the biography first so I understand the context.

109labwriter
dec 26, 2010, 10:19 pm

>108 souloftherose:. I think the Ashton sounds like a good choice.

I've read The Mill on the Floss and enjoyed it very much. That would be one I would read again.

110phebj
Bewerkt: feb 24, 2011, 11:38 am

I want to recommend an article by Rebecca Mead called Middlemarch and Me: What George Eliot teaches us in the Feb 14th/21st 2011 Anniversary Issue of The New Yorker. Unfortunately, it looks like you need a subscription to view the article online.

Here are a couple of quotes that I liked from it:
In her journals, which were not published in their entirety until twelve years ago, Eliot writes with anguish about her limited accomplishment, and a sense of too often falling short of her capacities.

Once, when she was asked which real-life person had been the inspiration for Causabon--a man whose "soul was sensitive without being enthusiastic; it was too languid to thrill out of self-consiousness into passionate delight; it went on fluttering in the swampy ground where it was hatched, thinking of its wings and never flying"--she tapped her own breast.

In "Middlemarch," when the newly wed (and newly disappointed) Dorothea defends Causabon's sterile intellectual efforts by declaring, "Failure after long perserverance is much grander than never to have a striving good enough to be called a failure," she is expressing a notion that is at the center of much of Eliot's work: that individuals must make their best efforts toward a worthy end, but it is the effort toward a goal, rather than the achievement of it, that makes us who we are.