Group Read: Beowulf - Seamus Heaney (spoilers)

I know that there were several people interested in doing a group read of Seamus Heaney's Beowulf in 2011, so here we are, a thread for us to discuss it...

Putative start date is January, unless anyone would like to delay that a little bit?

I'll try to do some research and add a post with a little background at some point between Christmas and New Year.

I am in, unless I cannot get the book from the library.

Yay!

(altered from "Woo!" as it sounded a little sarcastic and it wasn't meant to be! ;o))

I'll repeat what I said on the other thread: I'm in and January is good for me. :)

Oh, what a great idea. Count me in!

I loved this story when I read a version of it in High School. I think I'll have to try and jump in on this one.

I started this a couple years ago, and have been looking for the inspiration to get back to it. This may be it!

I'll join in too, I've got both the book and the audiobook and I can see both from where I'm sitting (definite plus in this house).

I'd like to join in! I just requested the Heaney translation, so I should be all set to start in January. I have read Beowulf before, but it's terrific!

Karen O.

This sounds good. I already have the book, thank goodness. NO NEW BOOKS. NO NEW BOOKS.

eta: Oops - I thought I had this book. Oh well, just ordered it from PBS.

I'm in and Jan is good for me as well.

I have this book around here somewhere. If I can find it, I am in!
--BJ

Me too (although it's worrying how many planned group reads I am using as an excuse to buy new books)

>#13 Me too!! At least I'm not the only one.

I was able to pick up a copy at the library today, so I am definitely in!

I read this a year or so ago, but since then I've gotten my hands on the audio book (read by Heaney), so I may pull that out and listen while I sew/knit/craft and then lurk around here...

16>

Ooh, I'm not generally an audiobook person, but this sounds like the sort of thing that would be really great to listen to. Unfortunately the local library's copies have gone AWOL, and since I have (and have previously read) the print version I can't really justify buying it.

Oh! I really like the audio book idea as well. After all, wasn't the story originally meant to be heard?

oh my. An audio read by Heaney would be really interesting. I think I passed on that on PBS - now why did I do that?

Too bad they don't sell "read-along" books for adults. It would great to have an audio and a paper version packaged together so you could read along while he read.

I'm in. Now if I could only find the copy I bought so I don't have to read it from one of my massive text books.

I'm in. I've been wanting a copy of Heaney's translation since I read it last year. I think it'll fit perfectly on the iPad!

16-20 Heaney's audio version is really excellent. In fact its the first audio material I ever heard where the printed version was also available, and it made me realize that some stories really are meant to be heard rather than or in addition to being read.

I've been following this conversation to see if listeners to the audio edition found different things in the text than the readers, so I hope some of you listen to it.

I've read the Heaney translation and admired it, but I don't know where it is now. So I looked for the audio book yesterday at Borders, and it wasn't there. Now Barny Noble won't let me onto his web site; he says that the server is busy. Perhaps I should give up.

Robert

Count me in too. I love Beowulf, and I thought Heaney's version was really good, although it didn't sing for me the last time. Second time lucky?

Hi, I am in as well.

I've just ordered the CD and the Norton Critical Edition, so I hope to join in the discussion. I've taken on a lot for the beginning of the year.

Robert

And a few hours later BN.COM e-mailed to thank me for my order and to tell me that my order will ship on January 20 although each and every item in the order usually "ship within 24 hours." I've queried them on-line; I bet that they respond without answering.

I hope to be in on the discussion, but who knows?

Robert

Question for those of you who listened to the audiobook version: Was it abridged or unabridged? I was just doing a search for it, and I can only find an abridged version, which I normally avoid like the plague. But if that's all that's available ...

#29 My audio is narrated by Seamus Heaney, an original BBC recording - unabridged selections: 2 1/4 hours on 2 CDs.

Thanks for that! The version I was looking at is 2:15 also, but is listed as abridged. How odd. I also saw what looks like the same product listed as "unabridged excerpts" which seems like an oxymoron!

The one I ordered is a two CD abridgment. I wonder if I would have been willing to pay so much if I had noticed that before I ordered.

Robert

"unabridged selections" makes it sound like it's abridged, but the chunks pulled out haven't been reworked or anything. they've just left out large chunks.

I've been meaning to read this for a while now (it's been on my shelf since last Christmas)... I'm in too.

keristars, I think that's a good guess, and it's probably the same as the "unabridged excerpts" version that I spotted. I'm torn between overcoming my bias against abridged recordings to try the audiobook anyway, given the high praise for it in this thread, or just settling for the print version. Decisions, decisions ...

35: If you can get the audio from a library, then you could listen to the parts that are on it and read the parts they left out.

I hadn't noticed it was selections. This might have something to do with why I liked it so much. It seemed very concise and focused, compared to the version I read in college.

That's an excellent idea, aulsmith! I think that's just what I'll do.

Got my copy! When do we plan to start?

I started on Beowulf tonight. I read the 30 page introduction. Has anyone read the Tolkien that Heaney refers to?

Stasia, there is a 7 page excerpt from a book of essays written by Tolkien and hence may not be the complete thing, but couldn't resist searching for whatever I could.

#40: From India!? Thanks, Piyush, but I think the postage would be a killer.

#41 I meant e-mail, though wouldn't mind posting either, but it would be too slow!

#41 I also edited the previous message to add a disclaimer, for me this will do, searching for the book would be too troublesome :)

Ah, OK. Thanks, I would love to be able to read it. My e-mail address is on my profile page.

I started reading this when I realized the Bears were going to get stomped by the Packers this weekend. Only got a few pages in as I was constantly being interrupted by the various Packer and Bear fans in the room complaining/rejoicing as appropriate. So far, the translation is very nice and easy to read.

For those talking about audiobooks, I'd also highly recommend listening to some of the original language stuff just to get a feel of it. This website has some of it available to listen for free: http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/Beowulf.Readings/Beowulf.Readings.html I've not listened myself because I'm at work, but whatever the pronunciation is like it's magical to hear the Anglo-Saxon.

Last year I went to an original language reading of the first part of Beowulf by Benjamin Bagby at the British Library with Heaney's subtitles and it was amazing. After a very short while I stopped needing the subtitles altogether because he was so expressive that everything made sense. I'm pretty sure there's a DVD available of the performance which I'd definitely recommend.

Edit: Yes, there is a DVD http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beowulf-DVD-Region-US-NTSC/dp/B000KJTG10/ref=sr_1_1?ie=U...

Hi all, sorry for going off radar for a while, which also means I haven't put any background up and I'm not going to have much opportunity to over the next couple of weeks either. Bad Fliss. I can only state STILL no internet and a surprisingly busy holidays as my excuse...

#43 PC, I don't suppose you could email me a copy too if I PM my address on your page?

I'll start reading tonight.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a structure for discussion/reading (clearly I'm not very good at organising this kind of thing)? It's fairly short, isn't it?

#46 Ygraine, thanks, for the DVD recommendation - sounds fantastic for those of us who aren't very good at reading poetry (me)...

I've read the introduction and thought it was fascinating: there's a lot of interesting stuff in there from Heaney about the way he did the translation, and I was very intrigued by his decision to use occasional words from Ulster dialect.

I'm just getting started on the poem and I'm also finding it very easy to read.

#46 Ygraine, that reading at the BL sounds wonderful. Thanks for posting the link to the excerpts.

I started reading this last Fall and stopped, so this is my chance to try again. I also had the Kevin Crossley Holland edition and found that there were passages that I liked better in his and others that I liked better in the Heaney edition. I will see if the library has the audio book of it...

It is quite short; I guess the main question we should iron out is whether we want to talk about the introduction as part of the group read (I thought it was very interesting, myself, when I read it previously) or just leap right into the poem?

I am also very tempted to start the discussion with asking about people's thoughts on Heaney's translation of "Hwaet!" as "So" rather than "Listen" (which is what the Chickering translation, the other one I've read, used) or something similar, which seems to be a standard jumping-off point. It's very different in tone; how does starting a story with "So" rather than "Listen" (or "Hey" or "Yo!" which I've seen suggested, perhaps only half-seriously, as colloquial modern translations) change the feel?

I'm in and I have the book. I'm starting today. I think since there is also a scholarly aspect of this book that discussing the intro would be a good thing.

I have the book, and I've read the dedication already (hehe, I just glanced at the format of the book). I'm planning to read the intro, and I think it would be great to discuss what Heaney has to say.

Karen O.

I just noticed this group read. Count me in. I see that borders has an ebook version for $1.89, so I will probably order and download from there.

Just checked again, the $1.89 version is a different translation. I'll probably order a used copy through Amazon.

My copy arrived in the mail today. Whew! and re >50 lorax:, my father always started his stories and jokes with 'So'. Once, he hadn't gotten to the next word before my mother and I were collapsed with laughter - just with the pleasure of anticipation.

My copy of the Heaney has still not arrived, but I'd be glad to discuss the intro, as well as the poem, once I've had a chance to read it. I do have a different translation meanwhile (Crossley Holland).

Hwaet! must be one of the trickier words to translate. It's an attention grabber and it literally means 'What', which clearly won't work. What contemporary words do the trick for us, in a culture not used to oral story telling? 'So' has perhaps rather the feeling of someone about to launch into a long anecdote in the pub. I think its informality works better than some of the other options: 'Hear me!' 'Listen!' 'Attend'.

I think "So" is near perfect. And I loved his story of how he imagined his family starting a story that way. I think Beowulf was meant to be heard and it's a great reminder of that!

Also, I never realized how close we were to not having this poem. One manuscript and that nearlylst in a fire?! Makes me wonder what we did lose.

#56: One manuscript and that nearlylst in a fire?! Makes me wonder what we did lose.

Unfortunately for humanity, we lose and have lost far too much. One of the tragedies of the war in Yugoslavia as well as in the Middle East is that the fighting forces do not care about and in some cases, intentionally destroy, works of art and literature going back thousands of years.

56>

Makes me wonder what we did lose.

A truly depressing amount. Most of Sophocles and Euripides, two plays by Shakespeare, the list goes on.

(A book on the subject that was much less interesting than I hoped was The Book of Lost Books. The title was a bit of bait-and-switch; lots of the volumes mentioned were in fact just never written at all.)

I like the informality of "So!" as well. It definitely needs something that's more in the tone of 'listen up, lads and lasses' than of a formal announcement.

ETA missing letters

I've only read the first part of the discussion so far, but it certainly whetted my appetite - the quotes are so visual!

#50/55 Hwaet/What/So/Hear me etc - how interesting!

...and it's funny you mention this because half way through part one of the introduction, I just had to skip ahead to skim the first page before forcing myself to hold off and finish it - and the thing that grabbed me completely about that first page was the "So." I really liked it as an opener and was wondering whether or not to bring up something so small here when I get to the actual poem.

To me "So" in this context carries a context of "let me tell you my story" anyway... I agree with you Caty, I love the informality of it and, as Jim says, it's a great reminder that the tale is something that would probably be recited.

#56 - 58 The Great Library of Alexandria also...

One the Hwaet/So business: it seems to me that most cultures/languages have some way to start oral tales, and sometimes various ways to start stories, depending on the kind of story it's going to be. Think "once upon a time..." Any actual individual meaning loses its importance, and they become more like markers, indicators that "hey, simmer down and listen up - I'm starting my tale now". Just a thought.

NB: Of course, this whole idea wasn't there for the ancient Greeks and Romans, who started their epic poems with a bang; you had to be paying attention from the very first word, because generally that first word was very important to the point of the whole poem - a mini thesis statement, if you will.

I love the line "Behavior that's admired is the path to power among people everywhere." It is still true today!

#61 Yes, I was thinking about things like 'One upon a time...' when I posted earlier. Another one which used to be familiar in the UK, from a children's radio programme called 'Listen with mother' in the late 60s, was 'Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin...'. 'So' does the same kind of thing with greater brevity and informality. I think it works well.

Is there a syncpoint for our reading and discussion? I don't see chapters, so it might be line numbers.

ffortsa, I think line numbers are the only way to go for syncing. (Though since we're all reading the same translation, page numbers should be fine as well.)

'So' as a translation of 'Hwaet':

The question is not "Is it a standardized way of starting oral tales" -- of course it is, and every translation of the word reflects that -- but "What does the choice of 'So' as a translation of 'Hwaet' imply?"

To me, it's a very low-key choice. It's the start of a tale told round a campfire, when everyone's already listening, just to let people know that now a story is starting. "Listen!" for "Hwaet" is equally formulaic, but to me it suggests a rowdy mead-hall, with the storyteller shouting out to get people's attention before starting. Halfway along the continuum between "So" and "Sit down and shut up!", as it were. While I don't dislike "So", the "Are you sitting comfortably" connotations, as gennyt puts it, don't seem to fit with the original context of the poem for me.

Anyway, that's enough on one word.

alcottacre, that's certainly true; it's just that behavior that's admired is far from the same everywhere!

I've read Beowulf before, in another translation, and partially through in this translation, so my choices of what to talk about might be different from that of people who've never read it at all; how many people are reading it for the first time? One of the things I like about this translation, though it did take a little getting used to, is that Heaney translated names when they would have meant something in Old English; so instead of Healfdene, we have Halfdane; the original hearers would have understood the meaning of the name, and I think it's a nice touch to make it equally transparent to modern readers.

I'm at the point where Beowulf has just landed (sorry, the book's not with me, so no line numbers), and one of the things that struck me is how perfunctory the Christianity is; it almost seems like later interjections. The poem will be going on about the monsters or something, and then interject moralization about how good it is to have faith in God, and then it's back to mead and monsters.

By the way, someone upthread mentioned Tolkien's The Monsters and the Critics; it's available online here. I'm not sure of the legality of the online version, but for a minor work written in 1936, where the author has been dead for more than thirty years and the estate certainly isn't lacking for money, I'm not too concerned about it, either.

#64 I like your comments on the location and context of where "So" would be more appropriate. I had not yet imagined trying to get a hall full of rowdy people to pay attention. "So" probably wouldn't quite cut it. It now brings to mind the phrase "Hear ye, Hear ye..."

Two essays by Tolkien, "Beowulf: The Monster and the Critics" and "On Translating Beowulf," are available in a collection of his essays entitled The Monster and the Critics and Other Essays, (HarperCollins, 1997, ISBN 026110263X) which AmazonUK lists as being in print.

'So', to me, sounds like 'Let us begin'. The story is expected, the dinner is over, people have been waiting for the bard to start. He doesn't have to call the group to order so much as let them know the story is beginning. I rather like it.

#65: Actually, it seems to me that it *is* a question of how oral tales start, because that *does* reflect how one translates it, or rather, that it doesn't really matter how one translates it to a certain extent, since such phrases are essentially empty of specific meaning.

70>

What I was trying to get at was something like this: several people said they liked "So" because it was a formulaic story-beginning, and I was suggesting that any translation of "Hwaet" was a formulaic story-beginning, and that if we wanted to talk about it, it should be whether it's a good formulaic story-beginning. Obviously you don't think that's an interesting question, which is a perfectly normal response. Probably more so than obsessing over it. :-)

#71: I think we're talking across each other here, so I'm simply stopping now, other than to say that no one's ever accused me of judging questions as uninteresting before (a clue that we're not understanding each other, I think). :)

72>

Fair enough. I thought that "it really doesn't matter how one translates it" was saying "the question of whether such-and-such is a good translation isn't an interesting one"; I apologize for offending you.

Anyway. Is there anything after the first word anyone wants to talk about?

#73: None taken. And yes, let's please do move on, at least to word 2!

I shall be reading Beowulf for the first time. I think it was lorax who wondered how many of us would be doing so. And I like "So" as a call to attention..... it's the way I'm used to people often beginning to talk about something they think will be interesting to those present.

I shall be perfectly content to read the comments of those who have read and/or studied Beowulf before. I'm sure I'll be enlightened.

"tholed" (line 14) gave me pause, but the meaning became clear as I read on; I'm assuming it means something like "endured" or "suffered".

I've just read the intro which was fascinating and hope to get past the first few lines of the text itself later today. I've listened to the audio a few times, and have to say that that 'So', sure perks up my listening antennae.
Still, if it's an oral telling all this would be accompanied with hand gestures, facial expression and probably movement and pacing, all to add effect. I can't 'see' Beowulf as just words on a page.

I've already requested the Tolkien essay, The Monsters and the Critics, from my library.

#75 Yes, 'tholed' means suffered. I think Heaney mentions it in his introduction as a word that is still, or was recently, used in some dialect forms of English.

This will be my first time reading the Heaney translation, though I've had a copy for quite a few years. I studied Old English at college (long before that translation came out), and we had to translate some passages as part of my course. I must have read one or more versions in translation and a couple more simplified retellings, but I certainly never managed to read the whole thing in the original, and my Old English is now pretty rusty. Once my copy of the bilingual edition arrives, I'm looking forward to re-reading (glancing at the original but mainly reading the modern translation) it in the company of those reading for the first time, as well as those who already know it well.

On my wall at home I have a poster with an extract from the original manuscript, alongside Heaney's translation of that passage (lines 86-92). This is part of a wonderful series of posters called 'Poems on the Underground' which are displayed alongside the adverts from time to time in London's underground Tube trains. I've loved coming across these on my occasional visits to London - for compulsive readers it's great to have something interesting or inspiring to stare at while squashed in alongside all those other commuters. Seeing Beowulf there was especially satisfying, and I had to get myself a copy of the poster!

#75, 77 Heaney mentions 'thole' being in use in Ulster - he comments that he recalled his aunt using the word - and in various Scots-Irish traditions.

I'm reading it for the first time. I'm up to line 1420, and one of the things that is surprising me is how fast I am reading it. I am used to poetry taking me a long time to read, but this flows very quickly.

I'm really enjoying the read so far, although I'm only to the point where Beowulf is brought up to the Hall. This is my second time through Beowulf, although this is my first time with this translation. I really like the Heaney translation, and the way that both the Old English and the English are provided. I can *try* to read the Old English by comparing it with the translation.

I have requested the book of essays by Tolkien(ILL), and I am looking forward to using them to extract maybe even a little more "juice" from the poem.

I'm struck this time through with how oral the poem seems to be. A few years ago, I saw a one-man dramatic presentation of the poem by one Charlie Bethel, and it was fascinating. Even though we were in a room of the library, we seemed to be gathered around a campfire, listening to a storyteller spin the tale. Very cool.

I'm not usually this wordy! so, my apologies. I'm really enjoying the read, and the great comments and discussions.

Karen O.

Can someone explain to me exactly what a 'thane' is when used in the context of this poem? (see p. 27 "a thane, they declared, with the strength of thirty in the grip of each hand.") My confusion arises from the fact that I thought the men with Beowulf were the thanes, not Beowulf himself as seems to be implied here.

80>

That's actually a very good question! There's a wikipedia article about the etymology of the word here; at various times it meant everything from "soldier" to "retainer" to sort of a mid-rank nobleman; however, "thane" isn't actually the word used in the OE, so Heaney may be attempting to invoke a meaning more familiar to modern readers (which makes me think of Macbeth, where thanes are fairly high-ranking.)

I'm at line 1070, but it sounds like most people aren't quite so far along, so I'll talk about something from earlier in the poem that struck me.

When Beowulf first arrives at Heorot, he's challenged by Unferth (starting line 499); we're told by authorial fiat that Unferth is jealous, but Beowulf's response strikes me as extremely disproportional. Basically, Unferth said "I heard you once lost a swimming contest, and you're going to lose to Grendel"; Beowulf responds "Actually, I won that contest, and you're a kinslayer" (line 587) -- and Unferth doesn't respond at all to the insult! Clearly there's something more to Unferth's statement that I'm not getting, to provoke Beowulf's nuclear response, but even so it seems very strange that Unferth doesn't have anything to say to that accusation.

#81: Clearly there's something more to Unferth's statement that I'm not getting, to provoke Beowulf's nuclear response, but even so it seems very strange that Unferth doesn't have anything to say to that accusation.

I guess there is also the possibility that Unferth's reply is simply not recorded for us.

Thanks for the help on the 'thane' issue.

It surprised me that Unferth was out on the edge of the land and no mention was made of any concern for Grendel. I suppose, therefore, that Grendel is only attacking Heorot.

I'm up to about line 750. So far, a nice, clear story. It sounds like we are not to put too much trust in Unferth.

SPOILERS AHEAD

Well, I'm up to line 990 and was completely swept up in that huge fight in Heorot. I'm just enjoying the story. Certainly not taking anything too literally.

>83 ffortsa: ffortsa..... I definitely have the impression that it was only Heorot itself that was under attack. I imagine that Heorot perhaps just represents the power of Hrothgar and his clan which was under attack.

81 lorax..... I think the narrator might simply have needed an excuse to expand upon Beowulf's prowess and that Unferth's jealous sniping was just that excuse.

I can't get the image of that rather large and scaley piece of Grendel with its "brutal, blood-caked claw" hanging high in
Heorot out of my mind. (Yes, I know I said I wasn't taking the story literally.)

Well, I'm only just up to line 115 (having been reading the second half of the intro in my lunch break), so I don't have a lot to comment on the poem itself so far, but one thing that did catch my eye was the description of:

"how the Almighty had made the earth
a gleaming plain girdled with waters;"

I'd completely forgotten that this was written in a time when it was thought that the Earth was flat.

Just a quick comment about the "So" again - actually, I don't think of it as a generic opener - to me, it's quite a forceful opening - a means to get attention - I imagined someone almost shouting it over a general hubub ;o)

The second half of the intro was, to me, very interesting - particularly in Heaney finding the rhythm and sense of his familiar old-fashioned Gaelic words in the original Old English. But it also seemed to me that this means that where he has modernised the text, if he felt that a colloquial Gaelic form sounded better, he has gone with that - this made me feel that I should maybe get one of my Irish mates to read it to me as it may have more flow with a that accent! As I say, I've not yet got very far in and I have nothing to compare it to, but I would be interesting to see how different translations compare in this respect.

...oh and count me as one of the first time readers (and one not very good at reading poetry at that)!

Did I miss something in Heaney's introduction? I vaguely recall being taught that the Christian elements in Beowulf were likely caused by a later author/poet/storyteller/someone injecting them in order to make the epic more acceptable to the ruling people, and so allow it to continue to be retold. But I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, and I didn't see any commentary on it in the introduction, unless it was a paragraph I inadvertently skipped when reading before bed.

(Or, wasn't something like that done with Icelandic tales and mythology? I may be mixing it up, if so. I started reading the Prose Edda last year and didn't get much through the introduction before having to put it away because of school commitments.)

85> I'd completely forgotten that this was written in a time when it was thought that the Earth was flat.

Was it ever thought the Earth was flat? Surely as seafaring people, they saw the curvature of the earth and how villages or ships or whatever would disappear over the rim and not shrink when moving away? (Thus, at that distance, they'd be going over an "edge", not just getting further away, but if you went out to the same distance, you'd see that there is no "edge" to go over.)

>86 keristars: I think you're right about the flat/round controversy, at least for sailers. The argument in the Rennaisance wasn't so much that the Earth was round as that the Church wanted to maintain that it was the center of the universe. But the image is lovely, isn't it? 'girdled with waters'. And indeed, the continents are so girdled, aren't they? It makes the contract of island and continent rather arbitrary.

I don't think you missed anything, Keri. From memory (from elsewhere) I think the Christian elements were original, but it dates to a time when Christianity was fairly new in Anglo-Saxon England (from two to ten generations, depending on when/where the original was actually composed). Pagan ideas were still pretty strong within popular/folk culture, and people were conscious of the paganism of their immediate ancestors. The characters in the poem, being from a previous generation, would have been pagan. So you get a hybrid.

Anyone able to confirm/correct that? Genny? Ygraine?

I'm finally getting caught up. I must admit that the intro had me running for my dictionary at times but I loved the new words. I find that I like to read the old english as well the modern, in the old english version there was another Beowulf who was a descendant of Hrothgar.

I also loved Beowulf's put down of Unferth, basically calling him a nothing.
"Well, friend Unferth, you have had your say about Breca and me. But it was mostly beer that was doing the talking."

Another thought that I had was that I actually feel kind of sorry for Grendel. I remember after my youngest was born we had a "party" house of students down the street who would always play music during the 3 hours of sleep I got a night. I felt like I could cheerfully maul them myself Here's Grendel minding his own business when all of a sudden this Hall is built in his earshot and all the noise, noise, noise, noise. And when he's trying to get away from Beowulf, he just seems like a frightened animal and not so much a demon.

88> Thanks! I saw a line about the Christian elements, but it didn't seem to jive with what I (fuzzily) remember being taught, and it was something that I found really interesting about the authorship/provenance of the epic when I first read it all these years ago - it must be 10 years now. (I wouldn't be surprised if that was a large influence on my interest in myth and folklore and how they change according to influence from other cultural groups.)

 

I've taken my time starting to read it, because of doing other things, but I started the actual poem now, and I do like his translation. It is very readable. :) I'm so glad, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, that he changed many of the compound names to modern equivalents. The version I read in high school didn't do that, and I don't think we got glosses about the meaning.

#86,88,90 From my dim and distant memory of lectures on Beowulf and the articles I had to read at the time, I think that the question of the Christian aspects of the poem are one of the things scholars have argued about a lot - one thesis being that it would originally have been a 'pure' tale from the heroic age without any Christian influences, but as it was handed down in oral culture the poem would have been adapted/added to, as Keri was saying - either to reflect the own beliefs of the later poets or to make it more culturally acceptable in the new climate when Christianity had been adopted. But then other scholars - perhaps especially those who tend to place the authorship of the poem toward the later end of the time frame - would argue that the Christian elements are integral to the poem not later additions.

I am trying to recall whether/how much Tolkien addresses this question in his essay 'The Monsters and the Critics' to which several of you have referred. Again it is years since I read this, but I do recall that his general argument is about taking the poem as a whole seriously, not pulling it apart to try to discover underlying 'authentic' traditions. I think it was mainly that the critics of his era did not take very seriously the main story line about monsters and dragons, but it may be that they were also objecting what they believed to be later Christian interpolations. Do comment, anyone who has managed to track down the essay. Scholarship will have moved on a lot more since then so that won't be the final word of course.

It's the sort of thing that is impossible to prove - unless someone were suddenly to unearth another manuscript with an obviously earlier version without Christian references. It's not unheard of for fragments at least of Anglo Saxon manuscripts to turn up even now - often they were re-used as binding strips in later medieval books, and come to light when those are being conserved or rebound. But it would be pretty amazing to find a proto-Beowulf! As someone else commented further up, it's a miracle that the poem has survived as it is, in one single manuscript that was nearly destroyed by fire...

Ah. So Keri and are both 'right', we've just been listening to different people. :)

Thanks, Genny.

It's interesting to hear from people who have actually studied this saga. I haven't, and am simply enjoying the poem.

I'm up to Line 1420 now, having become slightly confused at lines 1170-1180 where I wasn't entirely certain who was adopting whom.

Amongst all this mayhem and monstering it's curious to see the all-too-human responses of people..... Like the Danes ice-bound in Friesland over winter becoming bored stiff and deciding to pick another fight just to pass the time apparently.

I'm loving the poetry, and regarding the Christian elements: They seem like interpolations to me, but who actually knows? I certainly don't.

I'm now about a third of the way through--Grendel's mother has just attacked Heorot.

I started Tolkien's essay last night, and it's hilarious how he starts out, listing the different ways that "The Beowulf" had been analyzed--in such an assortment of ways, and with sometimes contrary views from the same critic!

I haven't gotten far in the essay, and I think I want to finish the poem before going farther in the essay (to have a clear recollection of the poem).

This is a great group read!

Karen O.

>94 klobrien2: Karen... You and I are at about the same point in the story. Grendel's mother is quite something isn't she? Dr.Who has much to answer for: I can't help picturing 'the Grendels' as being akin to some of the monsters (especially the airborne ones) which infest that show.

By the way, >89 yolana: yolana, I do think the Grendels' reaction to their noisy neighbours just a tad over the top, although I sympathise with your sentiment!

I didn't really care for Beowulf; the poem was to digressive for my taste, but there were several parts that I liked. Beowulf's interactions with Unferth, the slaying of Grendel, the hunt for Grendel's mother, and the entire dragon episode were quite good. And lines 2208-2210 are some of my favorite of any poem: "He ruled it well/for fifty winters, grew old and wise/as warden of the land." You'd think that fifty years of rule would get more than just three lines!

I finished Beowulf last night, and now I'll follow up with the Tolkien essay and a book of essays called The Beowulf Poet. The Tolkien essay The Monsters and the Critics seems really dense at the beginning, or maybe it's just me. (hehe) I think I'll kind of dip into the other book, just see if I can gather any insights.

I really enjoyed Beowulf, especially this translation. It was very moving and very dramatic to me.

Karen O.

Here are three quotes from Beowulf that really grabbed me:

(The gulf between those without and those with faith of the Christian variety):

"Oh, cursed is he who in time of trouble has to thrust his soul in the fire's embrace, forfeiting help; he has nowhere to turn. But blessed is he who after death can approach the Lord and find friendship in the Father's embrace." (p.15)

(Beowulf, about his father):

"In his day, my father was a famous man, a noble warrior-lord named Ecgtheow. He outlasted many a long winter and went on his way. All over the world men wise in counsel continue to remember him." (p.19)

(The ending of winter, the melting of the ice, another Christian reference):

"...as ice melts when the Father eases the fetter off the frost and unravels the water-ropes. He who wields power over time and tide: He is the true Lord." (p.111)

The wintery references struck me especially hard in the middle of this cold, snowy Minnesota winter.

Karen O.

Wait, how is melting ice a Christian reference? Isn't that just a "we live somewhere cold, and the end of winter is a good thing" reference? I mean, there are plenty of explicit Christian references, but I'm not buying that one.

this cold, snowy Minnesota winter.

Yeah, well, all the Minnesotans were originally from Scandinavia anyway. They know all about cold there too. :-)

As for The Monsters and the Critics (which I started, and then decided the poem was way more interesting), I was looking at my other translation (Chickering), to check something, and flipped past one of the essays at the back, where the author is discussing disagreement among critics about what the dragon symbolizes. I felt like throwing Tolkien at him and shouting "What do you mean, what the dragon symbolizes? It's a DRAGON, it symbolizes, oh, maybe dragon-ness?"

Yeah, well, all the Minnesotans were originally from Scandinavia anyway. They know all about cold there too. :-)

Well, I SHOULD not have differentiated between Minnesota and everywhere else in the world when I talked about the cold winter. Everybody's been hit this year, it seems.

Thanks for the feedback, lorax, you made me laugh. I don't know how far I'll get in the Tolkien essay or The Beowulf Poet. I really enjoyed Beowulf, and don't want to wreck it!

Karen O.

99> Lorax, I think the Christian reference is supposed to be "the Father" and "the Lord". There are a lot of mentions of "lord" and "god" that are ambiguous, though. At least, to me they could be.

My Beowulfs which won't ship until January 20 arrived today. I hope to be able to join you within a week. Hurray!

Robert

Anybody besides me surprised by the fact that beginning with the line at 2200 all of a sudden 50 years has passed? I mean, I knew it was coming, but there is like no transition, no explanation of what happened in the mean time.

I have always assumed that not much of anything worth talking about happened. Much like when you come home from work and someone asks what you did today and the standard reply is "Oh. Nothing much." Well, you did something, it just isn't worth having a conversation about. Although 50 years of that does seem like quite a long time.

I thought the 50 year gap was weird too. Even if there weren't any great battles or anything, you'd think the poet could at least have added that there was peace and prosperity throughout the land or something similar.

#86 "Was it ever thought the Earth was flat?" - yes it was, but actually, after reading the various comments afterwards, I went and looked it up a bit and you're all quite right, they wouldn't have thought so by this point in time, what with the seafaring and all... Chalk that up to another history myth from junior school and a misinterpretation of the line ;o)

As I'm reading this only at lunch times at work, I'm making rather slower progress than most of you (although I'll probably finish it at the weekend and then make a start on the Tolkein essay), so I've only just finished the saga of Hildeburh and Finn, but I'm enjoying it very much so far.

One of my reasons for suggesting this as a group read was that reading Virgil's Aeneid last year as a group was really helpful to me as a non classicist and Beowulf is a poem I've always wanted to read (having read Rosemary Sutcliffe's story version when I was small), so I'm finding this discussion fascinating.

I also find myself making comparisons with the Aeneid a lot, as it wasn't that long ago that I finished it - Beowulf feels more my kind of thing than the Aeneid, but I'm struggling to pin down why this is. The two poems are completely different animals in most senses, but it's interesting to me where the images overlap (in the battle prizes and celebrations for instance). I also have found it quite amusing that in Beowulf, the heros are all big, strong warriors, but in the Aeneid, they also all seemed to be beautiful...

There are some great lines in this though, aren't there? I thought the description of Grendel when he appears was wonderful - brief and to the point, but very evocative:

In off the moors, down through the mist-bands
God-cursed Grendel came greedily loping.

...and instantly you have a picture - that whole section is incredibly visual.

I also thought the following lines were interesting, in that they depict completely different mores to the present day:

...and the forthright Unferth,
admired by all for his mind and courage
although under a cloud for killing his brothers,
reclined near the king.

...just under a cloud?!

Yes, I caught that. Is there a story of his life in the saga? I'm about half-way through (book is at home at the moment, and I'm not). I hope we learn something of that catastrophe.

104> I have always assumed that not much of anything worth talking about happened.

You know, it reminds me a bit of the gospels which start when Jesus is either already doing his Jesus-thing, or start with his birth, then skip to the peripatetic hippy part. Except for...Luke, I think? that has that one story of adolescent Jesus.

I'm sure there are other examples of such time skips, but this is the first that came to mind.

Just up to line 1676 - after Beowulf's underwater battle with Grendel's mother. As it happens I've finished Ian Rankin's crime-fiction novel The Falls today towards the end of which Inspector Rebus also has a brief watery encounter with an evil-one.
Two heroes grappling with the forces of darkness. Some eternal themes here.

I finished Beowulf on Friday night, finding it both more and less than I anticipated. I hadn't read the entire poem before, so the dragon episode was new to me, although foreshadowed in John Gardner's excellent little book Grendel, which tells the story from Grendel's side.

The portrait of a culture was very interesting - valor, deeds and gold, the meaning of gifts, and constant threat of incursion all very well delineated. I expected more tropes, a la Homer, and was surprised at the end that Beowulf left no natural heirs.

The 50 year gap didn't bother me - it just pointed out that this is a story of deeds, of heroism, and the 50 years mentioned indicate an unusual stability, but nothing otherwise worth mentioning.

Does the Tolkien essay add anything material to the reading?

I remember someone telling me at uni that there is more criticism published on Beowulf than on any other English work. Don't know if this is still true, but if you do feel inclined to read around Beowulf, I'd definitely read the Tolkien essay because he does take a very straightforward approach to it.

Looking forward to starting it - just got to find the right box in the loft :-)

Finished it on Saturday. The "nothing interesting happened for fifty years" didn't bother me either; the poet wanted to tell about Beowulf's great deeds, not his life.

The 50 years irked me because the poet basically just repeated himself in the middle of the thing by having Beowulf recount his adventures abroad and then just glossed over a really long period of time. Surely a dozen or so lines about an uneventful 50 year reign would be less boring then rehashing what just happened?

OK, I'm finished and I enjoyed it very much - and, given that I read very little poetry, I found it incredibly readable and very evocative. I wonder how much of this is down to Seamus Heaney's translation - I may have to compare it with an alternative translation at some point (any recommendations those of you who have read the poem before?).

I made all sorts of notes as I was finishing off the second half, but I was clearly rather tired when I wrote them, because I now can't read most of the comments! I'll try to decipher:

pg43 (1294-5)

"The hell-dam was in panic, desperate to get out,
in mortal terror the moment she was found."

Did anyone else just feel incredibly sad for poor Grendel's mother at this point? Her son has returned, missing an arm and dying, so she rushes out to avenge him (as, it must be added, these warriors would be expected to do if anyone harmed their own families) and she's doing it even though she's absolutely terrified. These two lines genuinely brought tears to my eyes.

Re the 50 years gap, I didn't mind this at all - and, in fact, once we've mentally skipped the 50 years, the narrator actually does briefly recap what has happened in the interim - how Beowulf came to lead his people rather than his cousins. The two (main) monsters bookend his life really. I suppose you could sum up the feeling of the poem in the line "this too shall pass" (someone remind me where this comes from?).

I also actually quite liked Beowulf's gossipy retelling of his adventures in Denmark - it brings his character to life in many ways. I love his description of the night of his arrival in Denmark:

"I have never seen mead enjoyed more
in any hall on earth..."
(pg64; 2015-6)

Does anyone else feel that, despite his victories, he's actually quite a self-effacing hero? He wishes that he'd actually killed Grendel then and there rather than allowing him to go off to die. In fighting Grendel's mother he "barely survived the battle under water" and "barely managed to escape with my life"... That said, the last thing he wants to see before he dies is gold, which I find a bit disappointing in him!

The parts that I found more difficult were the momentary digressions - such as the description of "Great Queen Modthryth {who} perpetrated terrible wrongs." It's such a short opus that it doesn't disrupt the pace, but it does seem a little out of place. Maybe I'll see the point on a re-read (and I will reread this, whereas I probably won't reread the whole Aeneid. Maybe the underworld bits.)

Above all, there are some wonderfully succinct, but visual descriptions - the quote I write above; the arrival of Grendel through the mist (I quoted it in Msg106); the moment the dragon awakes (upon Beowulf's arrival):

He rippled down the rock, writhing with anger..."
(pg73; 2288)

I agree, some of the visual images were so immediate, especially that one you quote of the dragon.

I am reading v e  r   y slowly and have only just broken 1000 lines today (well, not that I read slowly, but that I don't stop to read enough - when I do read, I get several hundred lines down in a go), and I wanted to point out that I really liked what Heaney did around line 880 where he switched to the more literal form for the brief story about Sigemund, and again at line 1070 with the poet's song about the one dude's death. He could have just set those parts off with italics to show that they're stories within the story, but the use of the caesura and stress changes was stylistically cool.

I finished the Tolkien essay Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics and thought I'd post my write-up here.

This small book is the print version of a lecture that Tolkien gave back in 1936, on the Old English poem, Beowulf. This essay was mentioned in the notes to the Seamus Heaney translation that we read for our group read this month.

The essay was well worth the read. Questions had come up during the reading, and I found a few answers here.

1. Why monsters? "The monsters are not an inexplicable blunder of taste; they are essential, fundamentally allied to the underlying ideas of the poem, which give it its lofty tone and high seriousness." (p. 19) "It is just because the main foes in Beowulf are inhuman that the story is larger and more significant...." (p.35)

2. Any differences or similarities in the point of view of Beowulf and, say, a poem like Virgil's Aeneid? In the "southern" mythologies, existence is men against the gods and the monsters. In the "northern" view (e.g., in Beowulf), existence is God and man aligned against the monsters. (pp. 23-26ish)

3. Is Beowulf a pagan tale, with Christianity tacked on, or really Christian at base? "It is a poem by a learned man writing of old times,...he brought probably first to his task a knowledge of Christian poetry...secondly, to his task the poet brought a considerable learning in native lays and traditions." (p.27)

4. Why the big 50-year gap in the poem? "We must dismiss...the notion that Beowulf is a 'narrative poem,' that it tells a tale or intends to tell a tale sequentially...the poem was not meant to advance...It is essentially a balance, an opposition of ends and beginnings." (p.29) "Beowulf is not an 'epic,' not even a magnified 'lay'....if we must have a term, we should choose rather 'elegy.' (p.33)

The essay took some work for me to get through, and Tolkien's use of Old English and other non-Modern English languages are not translated (he assumed his audience would be able to do their own translation). But it was a good read. The author's passion and humor come through, and my reading experience was improved.

#117> Thanks for the thoughts on the Tolkien essay!
--BJ

Hi! I'm getting a new project started to get together great recommendations for books by themes. I've called it Books By Themes (BBT) and your suggestions are most welcome! Here's the link.

Ah, I have just finished the poem. I find it interesting that in the three major fights (plus the swimming contest) Beowulf takes, he doesn't have an easy win - in fact, he has to have help with the last one. I would say that it's interesting that he isn't perfectly strong or anything, but when I think on it, Odysseus had his faults, too, and messed up (or wasn't able to do things perfectly).

So I wonder where the idea of the hero being, well, heroic and never failing came from? I seem to have this idea that heroes don't need help in their great deeds, and everything they attempt comes off perfectly and easily, but that's clearly not the case, and even brief recollection of the heroic tales I've read make me doubt that it is ever the case.

Heroes usually win (until that last time, of course), but the nature of heroic effort is that it is hard, and sometimes involves leading and inspiring others. Except in comic books where Superman almost always has an easy time of it, human heroes are defined by their struggles, imo. So Beowulf's end can be seen as a sort of passing the torch to another such hero, willing to struggle to achieve great things.

I finished reading this late yesterday. It was my first time reading Beowulf, although I had seen the recent movie. The movie version was different. I kept waiting for Grendel's mother to seduce Beowulf with promises of fame and fortune, and a strange golden horn.
I thought the author - and translator- were very descriptive and poetic whenever a monster (Grendel, his mother, the dragon), monster parts (Grendel's talon, the dragon's scales) or grief/grieving were the topics. In between those parts I got bored with the stories that were basically the same- we went here, we did this, they gave us this loot.
I love poetry.I really wanted to like this book more than I did. I'll collect my thoughts and have a proper review in a few days.

I finished Beowulf the other day. I'd read it once before, along with Gardner's Grendel, in high school. I don't remember any details of the other translation (Burton Raffel's), but I enjoyed it more this time around. Of course, I don't know if it's because of the translation or if it's just because I'm not going to be tested on it in a week or two :) I do think Heaney's version flowed very well.

I also enjoyed puzzling out some of the Old English. I've been picking it up off and on since I finished to reread a passage or two just to do that.

edited for typos

I've just finished Beowulf. Would this have been fairly typical of the tales told in those days (7th-10th centuries)? I hadn't read this saga before and am glad to have done so now. It has piqued my curiosity about the everyday lives of people living in England and Europe in the centuries during which Beowulf was written and listened to.

#124: I believe Beowulf is one of the few works that have survived from that region at that time, but I do remember studying a much shorter poem called The Wanderer from that era that has the same melancholy to it that the very end of Beowulf has, so it's probably not atypical.

#124 Although Beowulf is by far the oldest, there's a fair amount of shorter Old English poetry that's survived and it's definitely worth reading. I always loved The Wanderer (although our lecturer was always informing us that The Seafarer was a better poem).

A major theme running through Old English poetry is the relationship between the leader and his men, whether it's mutual protectiveness, friendship or patronage, and both of these poems deal with the loneliness and worry caused when that relationship is gone.

Fate also tends to put in an appearance every now and again, usually as the cause for whatever disaster has fallen. The Ruin is a wonderful elegy on the broken down walls of a old town, "the work of giants" (possibly Roman remains) but destroyed by Fate.

Another one, The Dream of the Rood, imagines Christ as a warrior lord and the rood (i.e. the cross) having to support the battle being faced.

If you fancy more epics, then go for The Battle of Maldon or The Battle of Bruanburh.

I'd also have a read at the Norse sagas and the Eddas. They were written down much later, but look back to stories told from the same period. Grettir's saga has links with Beowulf, involving strong heroes and monsters and treasure.

It's a fascinating period to study, a real historical crossroads, with Franks and Picts and Anglo-Saxons and Britons and Vikings, although I'd rewind two or three centuries as well just so I could add on the end of the Roman Empire and all the events it sparked off. And it's all the more fascinating because there are so few historical records, so anyone wanting to know more about it has got to look at all the evidence available, be it from literature or archaeology or mythology or place-names or art.

I'm only just over halfway through and will finish it later today. Finally caught up with the discussion here which I've been staying away from till I got further into the poem. Fascinating insights and thanks Karen for posting (#117) those answers from the Tolkien essay, I especially liked the differences between southern and northern mythologies.

During the readathon earlier this week I was looking for other editions of Beowulf in a chitchat with Ellie and came across these wonderful illustrations by Lynd Ward from a 1939 edition of Beowulf. Has anyone come across any other artwork worth a look?

My edition of Beowulf is illustrated with photos of artifacts, armour, scenery etc depicting what was common in those days. It's quite a visual treat and makes the story feel more like a history.

>125 amanda4242: and 126

Thanks for those suggestions for further reading.

#127: Gorgeous pictures! Thanks for posting!

Karen O.

#127 Wow, the Lynd Ward illustrations are real stoaters! I love the underwater dive to Grendel's cave.

I finished Beowulf tonight. I listened and read for the first half and found that very little was left off the audio version, and would presume the same could be said for the second half.

My book has an afterword by John Niles on Visualising Beowulf and comments on why the illustrated edition I read has used photos of artifacts or scenery rather than an illustrator's interpretation of the story and why particular items were chosen. I will read this later along with some discussion notes I've found for the poem.

Finished Beowulf and I was very impressed with the translation...most of the time. The wording seemed to reflect images of the time, in a way that I could understand. My biggest complaint is there were times that the translation seemed to become out of rhythm and struggled to be paced correctly. This really slowed me down in a few parts. Overall, it was well worth the read.

I finished it last night and started on the commentary in the Norton Critical Edition. Tolkien's essay is next. Beowulf must have been a very strong man. It is fortunate that he was also a good man.

Robert

A friend has just posted this link on Facebook - anyone else come across Beowulf-themed accessories?! The comment about the child picking up on the usage of 'Hwaet' was amusing, I thought. Still have not finished my re-read - I will come back to comment properly when I have.

The link was great! If I was a little more talented in the knitting department, I'd give it a try!

Karen O.

That makes four times in 24 hours I've seen the link to those socks; unfortunately my knitting backlog is very long, so I won't be getting to them anytime soon.

From Grendel, the last two thirds of which I read last night, I got a couple of points of consideration.

A dragon, perhaps the dragon, but I don't know how the transportation would have worked, teaches Grendel some lessons. Among them he causes the monster to wonder what importance the aristocrats would have if they didn't have a monster eating them.

There is also the the obvious but important notion that there is usually another viewpoint.

Robert

#137> Loved the comment about what importance aristocrats would have if they didn't have a monster eating them. :)
--BJ

Do you think it says anything about Beowulf's judgement that his chosen crew all ran away bar one when they were supposed to stand and fight?

Definitely suggests that they were highly intelligent men to me, but what would his contemporaries have thought? Would they have seen it as a failure in Beowulf or just his men?