1DugsBooks
After cluttering up other sections of LT with Mars Rover Postings I thought I would start a topic here for anyone who would like to comment on the remarkable Curiosity rover on Mars. I can do "wow, look at that" anyone else able to give an informed view please do ;-) Official Mars Curiosity Website.
Don't you hate it when people track up the pretty part of the beach? From the NASA website
"NASA's Mars rover Curiosity cut a wheel scuff mark into a wind-formed ripple at the "Rocknest" site to give researchers a better opportunity to examine the particle-size distribution of the material forming the ripple. The rover's right Navigation camera took this image of the scuff mark on the mission's 57th Martian day, or sol (Oct. 3, 2012), the same sol that a wheel created the mark. For scale, the width of the wheel track is about 16 inches (40 centimeters).
{Image has been moved by NASA & I can't find it so below is a new one}
Don't you hate it when people track up the pretty part of the beach? From the NASA website
"NASA's Mars rover Curiosity cut a wheel scuff mark into a wind-formed ripple at the "Rocknest" site to give researchers a better opportunity to examine the particle-size distribution of the material forming the ripple. The rover's right Navigation camera took this image of the scuff mark on the mission's 57th Martian day, or sol (Oct. 3, 2012), the same sol that a wheel created the mark. For scale, the width of the wheel track is about 16 inches (40 centimeters).
{Image has been moved by NASA & I can't find it so below is a new one}
2daschaich
All I know about Curiosity I learned from Ph.Detours.
3pgmcc
Thank you for posting that photograph, Dug.
My primary degree is in geology and I am fascinated with the sand ridge and the fracture patterns. The analysis of details from this sort of photograph will not only give detail about grain size but also will provide data on the wind speeds that formed the ridges.
I never cease to be amazed by the photographs sent back from space.
My primary degree is in geology and I am fascinated with the sand ridge and the fracture patterns. The analysis of details from this sort of photograph will not only give detail about grain size but also will provide data on the wind speeds that formed the ridges.
I never cease to be amazed by the photographs sent back from space.
4DugsBooks
I actually took several undergraduate courses in geology and one course in oceanography while in school years ago. With that background I can sometimes know enough to successfully look something up! ;-) It is amazing how all those science areas cross over with physics, chemistry etc.
My oceanography prof., in a class of about 18 people, was actually the world's foremost authority on Caribbean geology at that time but I was not aware of that fact nor most people in the class I am sure.
I was interested in the concept of finding oxygen locked up in minerals on mars so they could be "mined" for the O2 at some time in the future. I wonder if the scientists will have to wait for samples to be brought back to speculate on processes to release the O2 or if the rovers will provide enough information to begin that project. I guess the size of the energy source for any future sustained manned Mars mission would be affected by that.
My oceanography prof., in a class of about 18 people, was actually the world's foremost authority on Caribbean geology at that time but I was not aware of that fact nor most people in the class I am sure.
I was interested in the concept of finding oxygen locked up in minerals on mars so they could be "mined" for the O2 at some time in the future. I wonder if the scientists will have to wait for samples to be brought back to speculate on processes to release the O2 or if the rovers will provide enough information to begin that project. I guess the size of the energy source for any future sustained manned Mars mission would be affected by that.
5pgmcc
#4 It is amazing how all those science areas cross over with physics, chemistry etc.
I always said that geology kept one in touch with all the science areas and yet was a very down to earth subject.
Of course, when we did a bit of cosmology I had to highlight the exception.
With that background I can sometimes know enough to successfully look something up!
When people ask me if I still use my geology I tell them I use it to bore people on country walks or at parties.
My oceanography prof., ... was actually the world's foremost authority on Caribbean geology
I believe geology is one of those subjects that has created a very close international community and that it is surprising when you realise just how significant the work of your professors and lecturers has been. We had a palaeontologist who was very active in trying to prove that birds are descended from dinosaurs and he was a leading expert on sponges (that last bit is not as impressive). One of our hard-rock geologists was one of the earliest proponents of convection currents in granite plutons and he formed some of the earliest theories and found field evidence supporting these theories.
I'm getting all nostalgic now. ;-)
Like yourself I will be interested in seeing what the scientists come up with in relation to Martian chemistry and the potential for finding or making life supporting conditions.
I always said that geology kept one in touch with all the science areas and yet was a very down to earth subject.
Of course, when we did a bit of cosmology I had to highlight the exception.
With that background I can sometimes know enough to successfully look something up!
When people ask me if I still use my geology I tell them I use it to bore people on country walks or at parties.
My oceanography prof., ... was actually the world's foremost authority on Caribbean geology
I believe geology is one of those subjects that has created a very close international community and that it is surprising when you realise just how significant the work of your professors and lecturers has been. We had a palaeontologist who was very active in trying to prove that birds are descended from dinosaurs and he was a leading expert on sponges (that last bit is not as impressive). One of our hard-rock geologists was one of the earliest proponents of convection currents in granite plutons and he formed some of the earliest theories and found field evidence supporting these theories.
I'm getting all nostalgic now. ;-)
Like yourself I will be interested in seeing what the scientists come up with in relation to Martian chemistry and the potential for finding or making life supporting conditions.
6DugsBooks
Dithering on about Geology I just read in the local rag that a Geology convention is/was taking place in my home town. A lot of field trips to mountain areas were cancelled because of the storm Sandy.
I thought I would list some of the known properties of Mars here and edit them in as I come across them. I had to do an aggregation of {ripped off!} info because I could not find one site that had all I was looking for. This is mostly for my own edification as others are probably aware of this stuff. I didn't know before looking around that some think massive amounts of water may be under the "soil" of Mars. And of course Wiki seems to fairly up to date on Mars with Curiosity references.
Physical Properties of Mars.
Mars has a diameter of 4,200 mi (6,800 km), just over half the diameter of the earth
The mass of Mars is only 11% of the earth's mass
The mean distance of Mars from the sun is about 141 million mi (228 million km); its period of revolution is about 687 days
The atmosphere of Mars consists of about 95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon and contains traces of oxygen and water.
Mars receives 43% of the amount of sunlight of earth
Martian surface temperatures vary from lows of about −143 °C (−225 °F) (at the winter polar caps) to highs of up to 35 °C (95 °F) (in equatorial summer). The high temperatures are only found within 1 meter of the surface.
I thought I would list some of the known properties of Mars here and edit them in as I come across them. I had to do an aggregation of {ripped off!} info because I could not find one site that had all I was looking for. This is mostly for my own edification as others are probably aware of this stuff. I didn't know before looking around that some think massive amounts of water may be under the "soil" of Mars. And of course Wiki seems to fairly up to date on Mars with Curiosity references.
Physical Properties of Mars.
Mars has a diameter of 4,200 mi (6,800 km), just over half the diameter of the earth
The mass of Mars is only 11% of the earth's mass
The mean distance of Mars from the sun is about 141 million mi (228 million km); its period of revolution is about 687 days
The atmosphere of Mars consists of about 95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon and contains traces of oxygen and water.
Mars receives 43% of the amount of sunlight of earth
Martian surface temperatures vary from lows of about −143 °C (−225 °F) (at the winter polar caps) to highs of up to 35 °C (95 °F) (in equatorial summer). The high temperatures are only found within 1 meter of the surface.
7DugsBooks
Here is some interesting recent data from Curiosity on Mars atmosphere I also found out while web surfing that Mars atmosphere has a higher average molecular weight than earth's because the lighter isotopes rise to the top of the atmosphere and are stripped off by solar winds.
The Five Most Abundant Gases in the Martian Atmosphere
This graph shows the percentage abundance of five gases in the atmosphere of Mars, as measured by the Quadrupole Mass Spectrometer instrument of the Sample Analysis at Mars instrument suite on NASA's Mars rover in October 2012. The season was early spring in Mars' southern hemisphere, and the location was inside Mars' Gale Crater, at 4.49 degrees south latitude, 137.42 degrees east longitude.
The graph uses as logarithmic scale for volume percentage of the atmosphere so that these gases with very different concentrations can all be plotted. By far the predominant gas is carbon dioxide, making up 95.9 percent of the atmosphere's volume. The next four most abundant gases are argon, nitrogen, oxygen and carbon monoxide. Researchers will use SAM repeatedly throughout Curiosity's mission on Mars to check for seasonal changes in atmospheric composition.
The Five Most Abundant Gases in the Martian Atmosphere
This graph shows the percentage abundance of five gases in the atmosphere of Mars, as measured by the Quadrupole Mass Spectrometer instrument of the Sample Analysis at Mars instrument suite on NASA's Mars rover in October 2012. The season was early spring in Mars' southern hemisphere, and the location was inside Mars' Gale Crater, at 4.49 degrees south latitude, 137.42 degrees east longitude.
The graph uses as logarithmic scale for volume percentage of the atmosphere so that these gases with very different concentrations can all be plotted. By far the predominant gas is carbon dioxide, making up 95.9 percent of the atmosphere's volume. The next four most abundant gases are argon, nitrogen, oxygen and carbon monoxide. Researchers will use SAM repeatedly throughout Curiosity's mission on Mars to check for seasonal changes in atmospheric composition.
8DugsBooks
Once again from the NASA Curiosity website an infographic ;
11.02.2012
Volatiles on Mars
This illustration shows the locations and interactions of volatiles on Mars. Volatiles are molecules that readily evaporate, converting to their gaseous form, such as water and carbon dioxide. On Mars, and other planets, these molecules are released from the crust and planetary interior into the atmosphere via volcanic plumes. On Mars, significant amounts of carbon dioxide go back and forth between polar ice caps and the atmosphere depending on the season (when it's colder, this gas freezes into the polar ice caps).
New results from the Sample Analysis at Mars, or SAM, instrument on NASA's Curiosity rover show that the lighter forms of certain volatiles, also called isotopes, have preferentially escaped from the atmosphere, leaving behind a larger proportion of heavy isotopes. Scientists will continue to examine this phenomenon as the mission continues, looking for isotope signatures in rocks. One question they plan to address is: To what degree have atmospheric volatiles been incorporated into rocks in the crust through the action of fluids, perhaps in the distant past?
11.02.2012
Volatiles on Mars
This illustration shows the locations and interactions of volatiles on Mars. Volatiles are molecules that readily evaporate, converting to their gaseous form, such as water and carbon dioxide. On Mars, and other planets, these molecules are released from the crust and planetary interior into the atmosphere via volcanic plumes. On Mars, significant amounts of carbon dioxide go back and forth between polar ice caps and the atmosphere depending on the season (when it's colder, this gas freezes into the polar ice caps).
New results from the Sample Analysis at Mars, or SAM, instrument on NASA's Curiosity rover show that the lighter forms of certain volatiles, also called isotopes, have preferentially escaped from the atmosphere, leaving behind a larger proportion of heavy isotopes. Scientists will continue to examine this phenomenon as the mission continues, looking for isotope signatures in rocks. One question they plan to address is: To what degree have atmospheric volatiles been incorporated into rocks in the crust through the action of fluids, perhaps in the distant past?
9DugsBooks
And here to tie together the two above posts is an infographic corroborating work done on Earth of a suspected Mars meteorite. Italics in the quote are mine.
11.01.2012
Weighing Molecules on Mars
The plot on the left shows new results from the Sample Analysis at Mars, or SAM, instrument on NASA's Curiosity rover. The instrument measured levels of different gas isotopes in the atmosphere. Isotopes are variations of atoms weighing different amounts. As seen on the plot, SAM detected about 2,000 times as much argon-40 as argon-36, which weighs less. This result is the most precise measurement yet of argon isotope ratios on Mars, and confirms the connection between Mars and Martian meteorites found on Earth, an example of which is shown at the right. The dark blobs in the meteorite are areas where atmospheric gases were trapped when the meteorite was ejected from Mars, and they include argon with the same ratio of argon-40 to argon-36 as SAM has measured in Gale Crater.
The data at left also show peaks for carbon dioxide containing different isotopes of carbon and oxygen. The carbon dioxide at mass 44 contains the most abundant isotopes of both carbon and oxygen, so it has the largest signal, with its peak being higher than the top of the chart shown here.
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/JSC
11.01.2012
Weighing Molecules on Mars
The plot on the left shows new results from the Sample Analysis at Mars, or SAM, instrument on NASA's Curiosity rover. The instrument measured levels of different gas isotopes in the atmosphere. Isotopes are variations of atoms weighing different amounts. As seen on the plot, SAM detected about 2,000 times as much argon-40 as argon-36, which weighs less. This result is the most precise measurement yet of argon isotope ratios on Mars, and confirms the connection between Mars and Martian meteorites found on Earth, an example of which is shown at the right. The dark blobs in the meteorite are areas where atmospheric gases were trapped when the meteorite was ejected from Mars, and they include argon with the same ratio of argon-40 to argon-36 as SAM has measured in Gale Crater.
The data at left also show peaks for carbon dioxide containing different isotopes of carbon and oxygen. The carbon dioxide at mass 44 contains the most abundant isotopes of both carbon and oxygen, so it has the largest signal, with its peak being higher than the top of the chart shown here.
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/JSC
10DugsBooks
I found the abstract at this link interesting {italics mine}. It really reminds me of Wall-E ;-)
The chemical and physical properties of Martian surface materials are reviewed from the perspective of using these resources to support human settlement. The resource potential of Martian sediments and soils can only be inferred from limited analyses performed by the Viking Landers (VL), from information derived from remote sensing, and from analysis of the SNC meteorites thought to be from Mars. Bulk elemental compositions by the VL inorganic chemical (x ray fluorescence) analysis experiments have been interpreted as evidence for clay minerals (possibly smectites) or mineraloids (palagonite) admixed with sulfate and chloride salts. The materials contained minerals bearing Fe, Ti, Al, Mg and Si. Martian surface materials may be used in many ways. Martian soil, with appropriate preconditioning, can probably be used as a plant growth medium, supplying mechanical support, nutrient elements, and water at optimal conditions to the plants. Loose Martian soils could be used to cover structures and provide radiation shielding for surface habitats. Martian soil could be wetted and formed into abode bricks used for construction. Duricrete bricks, with strength comparable to concrete, can probably be formed using compressed muds made from martian soil.
The chemical and physical properties of Martian surface materials are reviewed from the perspective of using these resources to support human settlement. The resource potential of Martian sediments and soils can only be inferred from limited analyses performed by the Viking Landers (VL), from information derived from remote sensing, and from analysis of the SNC meteorites thought to be from Mars. Bulk elemental compositions by the VL inorganic chemical (x ray fluorescence) analysis experiments have been interpreted as evidence for clay minerals (possibly smectites) or mineraloids (palagonite) admixed with sulfate and chloride salts. The materials contained minerals bearing Fe, Ti, Al, Mg and Si. Martian surface materials may be used in many ways. Martian soil, with appropriate preconditioning, can probably be used as a plant growth medium, supplying mechanical support, nutrient elements, and water at optimal conditions to the plants. Loose Martian soils could be used to cover structures and provide radiation shielding for surface habitats. Martian soil could be wetted and formed into abode bricks used for construction. Duricrete bricks, with strength comparable to concrete, can probably be formed using compressed muds made from martian soil.
11stellarexplorer
Keep the good info coming, Dugs!
12guido47
Dear 'dugs',
Do you know if 'curiosity' is explicitly looking for
DNA type molecules?
ETA. Spelling, always bloody spelling!
Do you know if 'curiosity' is explicitly looking for
DNA type molecules?
ETA. Spelling, always bloody spelling!
13DugsBooks
#12 I have not read that Curiosity is looking for DNA or other direct constituents of life on Mars. So far I have read they are looking for methane and other molecules that are "indicators" of life - like what they give off while living etc.. But don't take my word for it!
From a most recent Curiosity log I got this:
"The overall goal of NASA's Mars Science Laboratory mission is to use 10 instruments on Curiosity to assess whether areas inside Gale Crater ever offered a habitable environment for microbes."
"This graphic shows the pattern of winds predicted to be swirling around and inside Gale Crater, which is where NASA's Curiosity rover landed on Mars." The X is Curiosity's current location.
From a most recent Curiosity log I got this:
"The overall goal of NASA's Mars Science Laboratory mission is to use 10 instruments on Curiosity to assess whether areas inside Gale Crater ever offered a habitable environment for microbes."
"This graphic shows the pattern of winds predicted to be swirling around and inside Gale Crater, which is where NASA's Curiosity rover landed on Mars." The X is Curiosity's current location.14DugsBooks
Here ya go Guido, This the abstract to an experiment done on earth in soils similar to those on Mars and published in 2011. It hints at the ability to detect life with the "CheMin instrument" on Curiosity. If you read it and it says something different let me know. ;-)
15guido47
Thanks Dugs,
As I read the article (and not sure if these tests were incorporated in curiosities 'tool kit') they tested for the environment which reflected indications of 'life' on earth. Ie. our type of life.
Thus my initial question in #12. If we found a DNA type molecule, the panspermia hypothesis would become more reasonable.
But I wonder if those tests mentioned in your Article, would find "...life NOT as we know it Jim..."
*grin*
But we have to start somewhere.
Guido.
As I read the article (and not sure if these tests were incorporated in curiosities 'tool kit') they tested for the environment which reflected indications of 'life' on earth. Ie. our type of life.
Thus my initial question in #12. If we found a DNA type molecule, the panspermia hypothesis would become more reasonable.
But I wonder if those tests mentioned in your Article, would find "...life NOT as we know it Jim..."
*grin*
But we have to start somewhere.
Guido.
16DugsBooks
#15 Interesting take on the subject, thanks for bringing that up.
After browsing about a bit I think it would more surprising NOT to find at least some DNA or at least RNA type traces on Mars. An article in Astrobiology magazine describes searching the stratosphere of earth, which is similar to Mars, for microorganisms and finding them. The article states that as it now stands it appears all the critters were flung there by winds etc. and are "just enduring" the stressful location instead of thriving there.
A quote from the article mentions a technique that will probably be used to analyze Mars dirt eventually "Instead of trying to grow organisms in a petri dish, Smith and his colleagues extract DNA that they can match to a genomic library containing 60,000 microbial taxa. Preliminary results have shown microbes from every major domain of life can be found in the upper troposphere. "
After browsing about a bit I think it would more surprising NOT to find at least some DNA or at least RNA type traces on Mars. An article in Astrobiology magazine describes searching the stratosphere of earth, which is similar to Mars, for microorganisms and finding them. The article states that as it now stands it appears all the critters were flung there by winds etc. and are "just enduring" the stressful location instead of thriving there.
A quote from the article mentions a technique that will probably be used to analyze Mars dirt eventually "Instead of trying to grow organisms in a petri dish, Smith and his colleagues extract DNA that they can match to a genomic library containing 60,000 microbial taxa. Preliminary results have shown microbes from every major domain of life can be found in the upper troposphere. "
17guido47
Yes...but...but...but...
Unless we find DNA/RNA type molecules on...Say Mars. And I do love my "Extromophiles" here on earth, I am not convinced.
Unless we find DNA/RNA type molecules on...Say Mars. And I do love my "Extromophiles" here on earth, I am not convinced.
19guido47
Dear "Duke",
I can hardly hold my breath.
If this turns out to be 'really' BIG
I will have to keep thanking you (or at least mentioning you) for the rest of my life!
G.
I can hardly hold my breath.
If this turns out to be 'really' BIG
I will have to keep thanking you (or at least mentioning you) for the rest of my life!
G.
20DugsBooks
Looks like Elon Musk is trying to trump the BIG announcement, he has proclaimed a project to put 80,000 people on Mars. This article at Space.com gives some of the numbers - it is a projected ticket price of $500,000 per person.
At the Economic Times an article worries about contamination of Mars by Earth microbes. Kind of a nod to the Red Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson. If any of the participants start arguing using those horrid extended philosophical topics expounded upon in the books I am sure they will be thrown out of the nearest air lock. Long live peace of mind for Martians!
And at The Guardian in the UK more quotes from Musk on the Mars topic with some bio material on SpaceX and Musk.
Hmmm, I think the way to play this is to start selling really large piggy banks- $500,000 !!!!
At the Economic Times an article worries about contamination of Mars by Earth microbes. Kind of a nod to the Red Mars series by Kim Stanley Robinson. If any of the participants start arguing using those horrid extended philosophical topics expounded upon in the books I am sure they will be thrown out of the nearest air lock. Long live peace of mind for Martians!
And at The Guardian in the UK more quotes from Musk on the Mars topic with some bio material on SpaceX and Musk.
Hmmm, I think the way to play this is to start selling really large piggy banks- $500,000 !!!!
22pgmcc
#20 an article worries about contamination of Mars by Earth microbes.
That will just be a continuation of the resistance to the Martian invasion of Earth in War of the Worlds. I say we strike them at home. Hit them before they can regroup for another attack on Earth.
Joking aside, I have a son-in-law who would, if he had the money, be in the queue to become one of the 80,000. His wife, my daughter, has already said she'd go with him. :-(
That will just be a continuation of the resistance to the Martian invasion of Earth in War of the Worlds. I say we strike them at home. Hit them before they can regroup for another attack on Earth.
Joking aside, I have a son-in-law who would, if he had the money, be in the queue to become one of the 80,000. His wife, my daughter, has already said she'd go with him. :-(
23dukedom_enough
guido47 >19 guido47:,
Well, you have to remember that people often devote the majority of a career to a single big project like Curiosity. Sometimes they lose a little perspective when they have a good result. So it probably isn't as big as all that. A result's importance gets blown up further when the NASA or university PR people get ahold of it, too.
Well, you have to remember that people often devote the majority of a career to a single big project like Curiosity. Sometimes they lose a little perspective when they have a good result. So it probably isn't as big as all that. A result's importance gets blown up further when the NASA or university PR people get ahold of it, too.
24guido47
Nope, #23.
I'm hoping for life (with a 3 Standard Deviation error)
I have also, in the past, been called a "PollyAnna".
ETA. Though I didn't really expect the Higgs Boson that soon. Or even at all :-)
I'm hoping for life (with a 3 Standard Deviation error)
I have also, in the past, been called a "PollyAnna".
ETA. Though I didn't really expect the Higgs Boson that soon. Or even at all :-)
25stellarexplorer
>20 DugsBooks: Those philosophical expositions and wacky tangents are what makes KSR great.
Robinson fan here, in case you hadn't noticed.
Robinson fan here, in case you hadn't noticed.
28DugsBooks
And big is shrinking more:
"11.29.2012
Source: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Update Set In San Francisco About Curiosity Mars Rover
PASADENA, Calif. -- The next news conference about the NASA Mars rover Curiosity will be held at 9 a.m. Monday, Dec. 3, in San Francisco at the Fall Meeting of the American Geophysical Union (AGU).
Rumors and speculation that there are major new findings from the mission at this early stage are incorrect. The news conference will be an update about first use of the rover's full array of analytical instruments to investigate a drift of sandy soil. One class of substances Curiosity is checking for is organic compounds -- carbon-containing chemicals that can be ingredients for life. At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics."
"11.29.2012
Source: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Update Set In San Francisco About Curiosity Mars Rover
PASADENA, Calif. -- The next news conference about the NASA Mars rover Curiosity will be held at 9 a.m. Monday, Dec. 3, in San Francisco at the Fall Meeting of the American Geophysical Union (AGU).
Rumors and speculation that there are major new findings from the mission at this early stage are incorrect. The news conference will be an update about first use of the rover's full array of analytical instruments to investigate a drift of sandy soil. One class of substances Curiosity is checking for is organic compounds -- carbon-containing chemicals that can be ingredients for life. At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics."
29richardbsmith
It wasn't a rumor or speculation. It was a NASA spokesman who created the expectations.
31richardbsmith
I was hoping for the Bugs Bunny Martian guy.
32guido47
But, #31, he comes to earth to collect an Earth specimen
Oh, I see...
Guido.
PS. Re. #24 and #27 et. al. I will now even accept "A Methane FART" :-)
Oh, I see...
Guido.
PS. Re. #24 and #27 et. al. I will now even accept "A Methane FART" :-)
33DugsBooks
Major announcement postponed, carbon results in dirt sample missing along with several shiny gold reflective screens!!
Nasa scientists were flummoxed today at having to report the sample anaylsis that caused so much excited anticipation is missing. "Two hubcaps are also missing and the coin on the rover is nearly pried off", reported one scientist after describing what they found after Curiosity woke up from being shut down overnight during the weekend. She went on to explain all they had were" photos of these footprints near the rover but little other evidence. "
Actually the scientists reported finding some carbon, as quoted below, for the full article click on link.
"SAM tentatively identified the oxygen and chlorine compound perchlorate. This is a reactive chemical previously found in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix Lander. Reactions with other chemicals heated in SAM formed chlorinated methane compounds -- one-carbon organics that were detected by the instrument. The chlorine is of Martian origin, but it is possible the carbon may be of Earth origin, carried by Curiosity and detected by SAM's high sensitivity design."
Aha, It appears the samples are heated and as the temperature rises gases are given off{and analyzed/identified} depending on boiling/ gasification point of the "host compound" - similar to a still separating alcohol from water so that when you get to the boiling temperature of water you know most of the alcohol {with a lower boiling point} is gone. My, possibly embarrassing to every chemistry instructor I ever had, interpretation of course. The video linked below starts hitting on this at about 30 - 35 minutes in.
A link to the Dec. 3rd presentation of the information, this has more detail than anywhere else and is just over 1 hour long: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/27478475
First presentation I have looked at, it appears these are the best source for information if you have the time to watch - the rest of the posts are just condensed summations.
Nasa scientists were flummoxed today at having to report the sample anaylsis that caused so much excited anticipation is missing. "Two hubcaps are also missing and the coin on the rover is nearly pried off", reported one scientist after describing what they found after Curiosity woke up from being shut down overnight during the weekend. She went on to explain all they had were" photos of these footprints near the rover but little other evidence. "
Actually the scientists reported finding some carbon, as quoted below, for the full article click on link.
"SAM tentatively identified the oxygen and chlorine compound perchlorate. This is a reactive chemical previously found in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix Lander. Reactions with other chemicals heated in SAM formed chlorinated methane compounds -- one-carbon organics that were detected by the instrument. The chlorine is of Martian origin, but it is possible the carbon may be of Earth origin, carried by Curiosity and detected by SAM's high sensitivity design."
Aha, It appears the samples are heated and as the temperature rises gases are given off{and analyzed/identified} depending on boiling/ gasification point of the "host compound" - similar to a still separating alcohol from water so that when you get to the boiling temperature of water you know most of the alcohol {with a lower boiling point} is gone. My, possibly embarrassing to every chemistry instructor I ever had, interpretation of course. The video linked below starts hitting on this at about 30 - 35 minutes in.
A link to the Dec. 3rd presentation of the information, this has more detail than anywhere else and is just over 1 hour long: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/27478475
First presentation I have looked at, it appears these are the best source for information if you have the time to watch - the rest of the posts are just condensed summations.
34DugsBooks
I finally got to view the Dec. 3rd presentation linked above by streaming thru you tube to my TV. Not a good resolution copy on utube however. It was interesting and the carbon found is expected to be that "stripped away" from CO2 in the atmosphere possibly or maybe from the soil heated up.
It was explained that if the carbon was derived from complex long chained organics they would expect a "wide spectrum or a lot of different types" of carbon containing molecules to be cooked off when heated to near 800 degrees centigrade {if I remember correctly} but the compounds were all simple. Another interesting note was that the scientists are also trying to determine if any carbon found is derived from Mars or meteorites. Evidently space derived carbon has some signatures that they did not go into great detail about.
The testing instruments are phenomenal pieces of technology and the scientists explained they cheer every time they work - that the only reliable info is that from repeated tests of the same type samples. I believe they also explained there are frequent calibration runs .
As Spock would say, "Fascinating" ;-)
::edited some bad grammar but probably not all of it!::
It was explained that if the carbon was derived from complex long chained organics they would expect a "wide spectrum or a lot of different types" of carbon containing molecules to be cooked off when heated to near 800 degrees centigrade {if I remember correctly} but the compounds were all simple. Another interesting note was that the scientists are also trying to determine if any carbon found is derived from Mars or meteorites. Evidently space derived carbon has some signatures that they did not go into great detail about.
The testing instruments are phenomenal pieces of technology and the scientists explained they cheer every time they work - that the only reliable info is that from repeated tests of the same type samples. I believe they also explained there are frequent calibration runs .
As Spock would say, "Fascinating" ;-)
::edited some bad grammar but probably not all of it!::
35DugsBooks
I like this explanation of one of the instruments on Curiosity, this is a cut & paste from:
http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov/Instruments/CheMin/
Makes it seem a little less like "magic"- but not much! {a lot of the math is unfamiliar territory ;-) }
I added some links to the text as I did not recognize the terminology - anyone with actual expertise feel free to correct me at anytime.
In operation, a collimated X-ray beam from the X-ray tube is directed through a transmission sample cell containing powdered material prepared and delivered by the SA/SPaH system. An X-ray sensitive CCD imager is positioned on the opposite side of the sample from the source and directly detects X-rays diffracted or fluoresced by the sample. The CCD detector is operated in single-photon counting mode (the detector is read out at a frequency that ensures that the vast majority of pixels contain charge from either zero or one photon). The CCD detector is exposed to the X-ray flux, read out and erased a large number of times for each analysis (1000 or more exposures). When operated in this manner, the CCD can be used to measure the charge generated by each photon (and hence its energy). Diffracted X-rays strike the detector and are identified by their energy, producing a two-dimensional image that constitutes the diffraction pattern. All of the X-rays detected by the CCD are summed into a histogram of number of photons vs. photon energy that constitutes an energy-dispersive
X-ray histogram of the sample. A cartoon of the CheMin geometry is shown in the figure below. At incremental radii the two-dimensional pattern is summed circumferentially about the central undiffracted beam (ground processing) to yield a one-dimensional 2-theta plot comparable to conventional diffractometer data. Quantitative mineralogical results are obtained from XRD data by Rietveld refinent, FULLPAT and other full-pattern fitting techniques. Both crystalline and amorphous materials can be analyzed in this fashion.
Ok I have a question after another review, I don't understand how the "energy level" is measured - that would be the 0 through 8 Kev part of the XRF chart. I see the " X-ray flux, read out and erased a large number of times for each analysis " but I don't understand how that would measure the " the charge generated by each photon". ....Later, ok I read about CCD's at Wiki and now I realize it works kind of like magic. ;-)
{much later!}Aha ,like I was guessing, this quote from another wiki area:
In general, X-rays have a wavelength of between 10 and 0.01 nanometers. That's between 10-8 and 10-11 meters. Remember that a shorter wavelength means a higher frequency, and, therefore, higher energy.
So I am thinking how the sample components alter the x-ray frequency give a clue as to what it is and the CCD signal magnitude is controlled by the frequency of the x-ray. Now feel free to quash my delusions of understanding!
http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov/Instruments/CheMin/
Makes it seem a little less like "magic"- but not much! {a lot of the math is unfamiliar territory ;-) }
I added some links to the text as I did not recognize the terminology - anyone with actual expertise feel free to correct me at anytime.
In operation, a collimated X-ray beam from the X-ray tube is directed through a transmission sample cell containing powdered material prepared and delivered by the SA/SPaH system. An X-ray sensitive CCD imager is positioned on the opposite side of the sample from the source and directly detects X-rays diffracted or fluoresced by the sample. The CCD detector is operated in single-photon counting mode (the detector is read out at a frequency that ensures that the vast majority of pixels contain charge from either zero or one photon). The CCD detector is exposed to the X-ray flux, read out and erased a large number of times for each analysis (1000 or more exposures). When operated in this manner, the CCD can be used to measure the charge generated by each photon (and hence its energy). Diffracted X-rays strike the detector and are identified by their energy, producing a two-dimensional image that constitutes the diffraction pattern. All of the X-rays detected by the CCD are summed into a histogram of number of photons vs. photon energy that constitutes an energy-dispersive
X-ray histogram of the sample. A cartoon of the CheMin geometry is shown in the figure below. At incremental radii the two-dimensional pattern is summed circumferentially about the central undiffracted beam (ground processing) to yield a one-dimensional 2-theta plot comparable to conventional diffractometer data. Quantitative mineralogical results are obtained from XRD data by Rietveld refinent, FULLPAT and other full-pattern fitting techniques. Both crystalline and amorphous materials can be analyzed in this fashion.
Ok I have a question after another review, I don't understand how the "energy level" is measured - that would be the 0 through 8 Kev part of the XRF chart. I see the " X-ray flux, read out and erased a large number of times for each analysis " but I don't understand how that would measure the " the charge generated by each photon". ....Later, ok I read about CCD's at Wiki and now I realize it works kind of like magic. ;-)
{much later!}Aha ,like I was guessing, this quote from another wiki area:
In general, X-rays have a wavelength of between 10 and 0.01 nanometers. That's between 10-8 and 10-11 meters. Remember that a shorter wavelength means a higher frequency, and, therefore, higher energy.
So I am thinking how the sample components alter the x-ray frequency give a clue as to what it is and the CCD signal magnitude is controlled by the frequency of the x-ray. Now feel free to quash my delusions of understanding!
36DugsBooks
And still explaining to myself; X-ray fluorescence (XRF) In the chart refers to inner shell electrons which have been knocked out of their orbitals by the high energy x-rays and the "fluorescence" is as wiki in the link says: "The removal of an electron in this way renders the electronic structure of the atom unstable, and electrons in higher orbitals "fall" into the lower orbital to fill the hole left behind. In falling, energy is released in the form of a photon, the energy of which is equal to the energy difference of the two orbitals involved. Thus, the material emits radiation, which has energy characteristic of the atoms present."
I still vaguely remember trying to work out single crystal lattice diffraction problems with a {broken} slide rule - hurts my head to think about it!
I still vaguely remember trying to work out single crystal lattice diffraction problems with a {broken} slide rule - hurts my head to think about it!
37pgmcc
Dug, you're taking me back to my college days in the 70s when I used an XRF to analyse my granite samples from my geological survey area.
38DugsBooks
#37, wow - you had neat stuff to work with. I remember stomping through the woods in the same time period staring at a topographic map and hitting rocks with a hammer for samples to make a map for labs - my professor refused to ridicule the "contact zone" I discovered which was encouraging. The same professor complained about "making thin slice slides ruining his eyes!" and how lucky we were not to do that. He also made a great beer however. Ironically, crafted beer is where the money is in this area now {many years later}, breweries are springing up all over the place and costing premium sums for brews.
39pgmcc
In my experience beer very often goes hand-in-hand with geology, although there are exceptions.
Our external examiner was the professor (head of department) of Geology in one of the universities in Glasgow. He was a tea-totaller, as was the professor of Geology in the other Glasgow university (Clydeside).
Glasgow was to host an international geology conference and the majority of visiting geologists were looking forward to a big booze-up at the Glasgow conference.
:-) They were disappointed. Alcohol was not available at any of the conference events or venues.
Our external examiner was the professor (head of department) of Geology in one of the universities in Glasgow. He was a tea-totaller, as was the professor of Geology in the other Glasgow university (Clydeside).
Glasgow was to host an international geology conference and the majority of visiting geologists were looking forward to a big booze-up at the Glasgow conference.
:-) They were disappointed. Alcohol was not available at any of the conference events or venues.
40pgmcc
about "making thin slice slides ruining his eyes!"
I loved viewing the thin sections through the polarising microscope. Working mostly in granites I found the patterns and colours fantastic. They always made me think of cool album covers for LPs.
I loved viewing the thin sections through the polarising microscope. Working mostly in granites I found the patterns and colours fantastic. They always made me think of cool album covers for LPs.
41DugsBooks
"Could have been life on Mars" says NASA & Curiosity scientists! I missed the video conference call which must have been more informative but will post a link to it when I can find it.
Quotes from the above link to official NASA release:
NASA Rover Finds Conditions Once Suited for Ancient Life on Mars
WASHINGTON -- An analysis of a rock sample collected by NASA's Curiosity rover shows ancient Mars could have supported living microbes.
Scientists identified sulfur, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and carbon -- some of the key chemical ingredients for life -- in the powder Curiosity drilled out of a sedimentary rock near an ancient stream bed in Gale Crater on the Red Planet last month.
"A fundamental question for this mission is whether Mars could have supported a habitable environment," said Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program at the agency's headquarters in Washington. "From what we know now, the answer is yes."
Two Different Aqueous Environments
This set of images compares rocks seen by NASA's Opportunity rover and Curiosity rover at two different parts of Mars.
Link to a restatement with images above: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&New...
Quotes from the above link to official NASA release:
NASA Rover Finds Conditions Once Suited for Ancient Life on Mars
WASHINGTON -- An analysis of a rock sample collected by NASA's Curiosity rover shows ancient Mars could have supported living microbes.
Scientists identified sulfur, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and carbon -- some of the key chemical ingredients for life -- in the powder Curiosity drilled out of a sedimentary rock near an ancient stream bed in Gale Crater on the Red Planet last month.
"A fundamental question for this mission is whether Mars could have supported a habitable environment," said Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program at the agency's headquarters in Washington. "From what we know now, the answer is yes."
Two Different Aqueous Environments
This set of images compares rocks seen by NASA's Opportunity rover and Curiosity rover at two different parts of Mars.
Link to a restatement with images above: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&New...
42DugsBooks
I just read Buzz Aldrin Mission To Mars and thought it was very interesting. Buzz was the second guy out of the moon lander behind Neil Armstrong to walk on the moon {I like a bit of caution!}. His Aldrin Cycler has an interplanetary vehicle{s} orbiting both Earth and Mars. These are used for transport to and from Mars. Wiki has some more technical information on the concept along with the periods of time it takes to travel the distance for various permutations of a "cycler" orbit.
My bet is when & if we go in a big way to Mars, this is the way we will do it. I think making the cycler ship be able to create gravity by rotating would be a must since we know the effects of weightlessness for long periods of time.
I find it difficult to believe Dennis Tito is planning to fly a husband wife team to Mars and back. But there are people volunteering for it. I would have thought the failed Russian attempt to bring back samples from one of the Mars moons would be tried again with better engineering.
My bet is when & if we go in a big way to Mars, this is the way we will do it. I think making the cycler ship be able to create gravity by rotating would be a must since we know the effects of weightlessness for long periods of time.
I find it difficult to believe Dennis Tito is planning to fly a husband wife team to Mars and back. But there are people volunteering for it. I would have thought the failed Russian attempt to bring back samples from one of the Mars moons would be tried again with better engineering.
43DugsBooks
A new article on the Curiosity site that has information obtained by the rover about radiation and space travel. Data From NASA Rover's Voyage To Mars Aids Planning
Some excerpts from the article:
{Referring to travel to Mars.}
"The findings, which are published in the May 31 edition of the journal Science, indicate radiation exposure for human explorers could exceed NASA's career limit for astronauts if current propulsion systems are used."
"Two forms of radiation pose potential health risks to astronauts in deep space. One is galactic cosmic rays (GCRs), particles caused by supernova explosions and other high-energy events outside the solar system. The other is solar energetic particles (SEPs) associated with solar flares and coronal mass ejections from the sun."
"Current spacecraft shield much more effectively against SEPs than GCRs. To protect against the comparatively low energy of typical SEPs, astronauts might need to move into havens with extra shielding on a spacecraft or on the Martian surface, or employ other countermeasures. GCRs tend to be highly energetic, highly penetrating particles that are not stopped by the modest shielding provided by a typical spacecraft."
Here is a photo of the Radiation Assessment Detector instrument that does the measuring evidently and a link to the page if interested:
Some excerpts from the article:
{Referring to travel to Mars.}
"The findings, which are published in the May 31 edition of the journal Science, indicate radiation exposure for human explorers could exceed NASA's career limit for astronauts if current propulsion systems are used."
"Two forms of radiation pose potential health risks to astronauts in deep space. One is galactic cosmic rays (GCRs), particles caused by supernova explosions and other high-energy events outside the solar system. The other is solar energetic particles (SEPs) associated with solar flares and coronal mass ejections from the sun."
"Current spacecraft shield much more effectively against SEPs than GCRs. To protect against the comparatively low energy of typical SEPs, astronauts might need to move into havens with extra shielding on a spacecraft or on the Martian surface, or employ other countermeasures. GCRs tend to be highly energetic, highly penetrating particles that are not stopped by the modest shielding provided by a typical spacecraft."
Here is a photo of the Radiation Assessment Detector instrument that does the measuring evidently and a link to the page if interested:
44pgmcc
Dug, radiation exposure is probably one of the most difficult aspects of prolonged space flight for humans and I think it is often ignored in fiction because of its purvasive nature and the difficulties of providing sheilding for it.n
45guido47
Dear Peter, #44,
Since SF can ignore Einsteins' and many other laws of Physics (eg. Anti inertia, and anti gravity) I can't see why they can't shrug off such a minor matter as high energy particles :-)
If you are talking about "hard" SF, often written by Phycists, such as Brin , Benford and even Arthur C. Clark I suspect it depends on when they wrote their tales. ie. Did they know of the dangers then? Did you ever read A fall of Moondust written well be for Apollo. Wrong now, but...
I still like SF, but do expect my modern authors to keep abreast of current science.
Which many do, incorporating such ideas as "The Holographic Universe", "String theory - used imaginativly" and "Hard AI - which Penrose still dislikes".
Guido.
PS. Somewhere I have a SF story (probably written in the '30's) where "MEN land on an electron".
That (hack) author was surely ridiculous in his own time.
ETA. Elaboration and typos.
Since SF can ignore Einsteins' and many other laws of Physics (eg. Anti inertia, and anti gravity) I can't see why they can't shrug off such a minor matter as high energy particles :-)
If you are talking about "hard" SF, often written by Phycists, such as Brin , Benford and even Arthur C. Clark I suspect it depends on when they wrote their tales. ie. Did they know of the dangers then? Did you ever read A fall of Moondust written well be for Apollo. Wrong now, but...
I still like SF, but do expect my modern authors to keep abreast of current science.
Which many do, incorporating such ideas as "The Holographic Universe", "String theory - used imaginativly" and "Hard AI - which Penrose still dislikes".
Guido.
PS. Somewhere I have a SF story (probably written in the '30's) where "MEN land on an electron".
That (hack) author was surely ridiculous in his own time.
ETA. Elaboration and typos.
46pgmcc
#47 Hi, Guido.
I can't see why they can't shrug off such a minor matter as high energy particles
Agreed. I H.G. Wells can have time travel...
I tend to read SF for their treatment of social issues rather than their scientific accuracy. When they get it totally wrong, however, that distracts from the substance of the story.
Charles Stross is an author who tries to make the science in his stories accurate, even in relation to space flight. Saturn's Children is a case in point.
I attended a lecture by Penrose called, "Fact, Fiction and Fantasy in Physics". I can't remember what he highlighted as Fact and Fiction but I do remember he had String Theory as the Fantasy element. :-) Stephen Hawking attended the lecture too. I suppose he was supporting his supervisor. (Yes, that was a bit of gratuitous name dropping.)
I can't see why they can't shrug off such a minor matter as high energy particles
Agreed. I H.G. Wells can have time travel...
I tend to read SF for their treatment of social issues rather than their scientific accuracy. When they get it totally wrong, however, that distracts from the substance of the story.
Charles Stross is an author who tries to make the science in his stories accurate, even in relation to space flight. Saturn's Children is a case in point.
I attended a lecture by Penrose called, "Fact, Fiction and Fantasy in Physics". I can't remember what he highlighted as Fact and Fiction but I do remember he had String Theory as the Fantasy element. :-) Stephen Hawking attended the lecture too. I suppose he was supporting his supervisor. (Yes, that was a bit of gratuitous name dropping.)
47guido47
Please DO drop some more names, #46.
When I lasted talked to 'Albert'... ;-) it was only in my head!
When I lasted talked to 'Albert'... ;-) it was only in my head!
48DugsBooks
#44, Yep it seems radiation dangers are pushed to the background on a lot of speculative space trips both in real life and fiction. I thought the post on the radiation count was important because it implies that now we have hard data to realistically assess the dangers/challenges. I am guessing the radiation amount is not too far from what was calculated before or it would have made a bigger splash. I am a bit curious to know a little more detail on how they determine the "direction" of the incoming particles and I look forward to the further assessment of radiation on the surface of Mars by Curiosity.
Doesn't String theory depend on more dimensions - up to 11 or so? Seems I remember reading that somewhere.
Doesn't String theory depend on more dimensions - up to 11 or so? Seems I remember reading that somewhere.
49drneutron
If you make stacks of detectors, you can track the path of a particle and measure its energy. Almost all radiation detectors in space are of this type.
The problem of cosmic radiation has been known for a long time. The hard part is understanding how the radiation environment changes as the particles interact with an atmosphere or a structure like a space vehicle. NASA's main work over the last while is in this area and in understanding the biological effects of radiation and the risks associated with exposure.
The idea of magnetic shielding has also been studied for some time. Most people consider it impractical for real structures since the power needed to generate the magnetic fields around big things is very high - and power's at a premium in space. It's easier to put stuff you need anyway between you and the radiation like water, etc.
The problem of cosmic radiation has been known for a long time. The hard part is understanding how the radiation environment changes as the particles interact with an atmosphere or a structure like a space vehicle. NASA's main work over the last while is in this area and in understanding the biological effects of radiation and the risks associated with exposure.
The idea of magnetic shielding has also been studied for some time. Most people consider it impractical for real structures since the power needed to generate the magnetic fields around big things is very high - and power's at a premium in space. It's easier to put stuff you need anyway between you and the radiation like water, etc.
50DugsBooks
Thanks for the info drneutron. Will you be using radiation detectors on the Solar Probe Plus you are involved with and mentioned some time back in the LT Science section? Seems like your mission near the Sun might be kind of overwhelming for one. SpaceX is going like gangbusters with the trips to the Space Station and all, so it looks like your ride is good.
I watched NOVA's Secrets of the Sun video the other day on Netflix. I found it interesting as I had not been exposed to a lot of the information before , like the Sun's magnetic poles flipping every 11 years etc. It also mentioned some information on solar storms - some of which I might have snored through ;-) I found the explanation of how a " coronal mass ejection" is different from a "solar wind" or whatever enlightening as I had never heard of the former.
::edit correction:: Ack! I had heard of coronal mass ejections, see post 43, but only knew them by context of use to be "stuff coming off the sun" The NOVA flick provided a lot of detail about huge magnetic loops on the sun's surface twisting and slamming into themselves, exploding the top of the loop and the very energetic particles in it off in space.
Is your mission timed to be in one of the "slow periods" of the 11 year cycle? The flick said 2013 is supposed to be an active time of sunspot activity.
I watched NOVA's Secrets of the Sun video the other day on Netflix. I found it interesting as I had not been exposed to a lot of the information before , like the Sun's magnetic poles flipping every 11 years etc. It also mentioned some information on solar storms - some of which I might have snored through ;-) I found the explanation of how a " coronal mass ejection" is different from a "solar wind" or whatever enlightening as I had never heard of the former.
::edit correction:: Ack! I had heard of coronal mass ejections, see post 43, but only knew them by context of use to be "stuff coming off the sun" The NOVA flick provided a lot of detail about huge magnetic loops on the sun's surface twisting and slamming into themselves, exploding the top of the loop and the very energetic particles in it off in space.
Is your mission timed to be in one of the "slow periods" of the 11 year cycle? The flick said 2013 is supposed to be an active time of sunspot activity.
51drneutron
We do have energetic particle detectors on SPP to measure the high energy proton and heavy ion production of the Sun. These are a combination of time-of-flight detectors (measuring mass and time of flight across a known distance gives energy) and detector stacks called telescopes. Ultimately we'll get number of particles of various types as a function of energy at different times and locations across most of a solar cycle, beginning at the next solar minimum and ending at roughly the solar maximum peak (assuming the cycle predictions are right).
52guido47
Dear Dugs, #48, re. your:
Doesn't String theory depend on more dimensions - up to 11 or so? Seems I remember reading that somewhere..
Well, I have started to read Out of this world Colliding Seems OK, and worth a look.
Doesn't String theory depend on more dimensions - up to 11 or so? Seems I remember reading that somewhere..
Well, I have started to read Out of this world Colliding Seems OK, and worth a look.
53DugsBooks
Thanks for the reccomendation guido, I will keep the book in mind when I want a break.
The "One Way" group {to Mars} is meeting this weekend according to this article at Space.com. Applicants for One-Way Mars Trip to Descend on Washington
It states that over 78,000 people have applied to be the first people to colonize Mars via a one way trip there and a landing date in 2023.
::Later edit:: Anyone think they might be tired of hearing jokes about " To Serve Man"? ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLVsY6mChIg
The "One Way" group {to Mars} is meeting this weekend according to this article at Space.com. Applicants for One-Way Mars Trip to Descend on Washington
It states that over 78,000 people have applied to be the first people to colonize Mars via a one way trip there and a landing date in 2023.
::Later edit:: Anyone think they might be tired of hearing jokes about " To Serve Man"? ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLVsY6mChIg
54DugsBooks
The One Year Celebration of Curiosity's landing on Mars has/is being celebrated. Here is a link for a one hour special at the NASA Curiosity site for a review of expedition so far. I gave it a listen while browsing on the net and found it worthwhile, there is a 5 minute compilation of Curiosity's trek on Mars at the end. http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/1stbday/?go=20130806tv
A few LT'ers were watching live at the landing and blogged here in the SF on LT section: http://www.librarything.com/topic/138772#3526642
Once again this is a link to the home page of the Curiosity mission: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/
Curiosity Sol 343 Vista With 'Twin Cairns' on Route to Mount Sharp
Quote from the website describing the photo. "This scene combines seven images from the telephoto-lens camera on the right side of the Mast Camera (Mastcam) instrument on NASA's Mars rover Curiosity. The component images were taken between 11:39 and 11:43 a.m., local solar time, on 343rd Martian day, or sol, of the rover's work on Mars (July 24, 2013). That was shortly before Curiosity's Sol 343 drive of 111 feet (33.7 meters). The rover had driven 205 feet (62.4 meters) on Sol 342 to arrive at the location providing this vista. The center of the scene is toward the southwest.
A rise topped by two gray rocks near the center of the scene is informally named "Twin Cairns Island." It is about 100 feet (30 meters) from Curiosity's position. The two gray rocks, combined, are about 10 feet (3 meters) wide, as seen from this angle.
This mosaic has been white-balanced to show what the scene would look like under Earth lighting conditions, which is helpful in distinguishing and recognizing materials in the rocks and soil. "
A few LT'ers were watching live at the landing and blogged here in the SF on LT section: http://www.librarything.com/topic/138772#3526642
Once again this is a link to the home page of the Curiosity mission: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/
Curiosity Sol 343 Vista With 'Twin Cairns' on Route to Mount Sharp
Quote from the website describing the photo. "This scene combines seven images from the telephoto-lens camera on the right side of the Mast Camera (Mastcam) instrument on NASA's Mars rover Curiosity. The component images were taken between 11:39 and 11:43 a.m., local solar time, on 343rd Martian day, or sol, of the rover's work on Mars (July 24, 2013). That was shortly before Curiosity's Sol 343 drive of 111 feet (33.7 meters). The rover had driven 205 feet (62.4 meters) on Sol 342 to arrive at the location providing this vista. The center of the scene is toward the southwest.
A rise topped by two gray rocks near the center of the scene is informally named "Twin Cairns Island." It is about 100 feet (30 meters) from Curiosity's position. The two gray rocks, combined, are about 10 feet (3 meters) wide, as seen from this angle.
This mosaic has been white-balanced to show what the scene would look like under Earth lighting conditions, which is helpful in distinguishing and recognizing materials in the rocks and soil. "
55DugsBooks
Aha! Curiosity now has an official 1st birthday site at http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/1stbday/ It appears there are several short videos of interest.
56DugsBooks
I got involved in a short discussion about robotic machines controlled remotely {earth to moon} elsewhere on the net and thought I would find out more about how the Mars rovers do that. Here is some stuff from the Curiosity website.:
"How Fast and How Much Data the Rovers Can Send Back
The data rate direct-to-Earth varies from about 12,000 bits per second to 3,500 bits per second (roughly a third as fast as a standard home modem). The data rate to the orbiters is a constant 128,000 bits per second (4 times faster than a home modem). An orbiter passes over the rover and is in the vicinity of the sky to communicate with the rovers for about eight minutes at a time, per sol. In that time, about 60 megabits of data (about 1/100 of a CD) can be transmitted to an orbiter. That same 60 megabits would take between 1.5 and 5 hours to transmit direct to Earth. The rovers can only transmit direct-to-Earth for at most three hours a day due to power and thermal limitations, even though Earth may be in view much longer.
Mars is rotating on its own axis so Mars often "turns its back" to Earth, taking the rover with it. The rover is turned out of the field of view of Earth and goes "dark", just like nighttime on Earth, when the sun goes out of the field of view of Earth at a certain location when the Earth turns its "back" to the sun. The orbiters can see Earth for about 2/3 of each orbit, or about 16 hours a day. They can send much more data direct-to-Earth than the rovers, not only because they can see Earth longer, but because they can operate their radio for much longer since their solar panels get light most of the time, and they have bigger antennas than the rovers."
Link to the above quote & more info titled Communications with Earth: The NASA Deep Space Network (DSN)
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/mission/communications.html
"How Fast and How Much Data the Rovers Can Send Back
The data rate direct-to-Earth varies from about 12,000 bits per second to 3,500 bits per second (roughly a third as fast as a standard home modem). The data rate to the orbiters is a constant 128,000 bits per second (4 times faster than a home modem). An orbiter passes over the rover and is in the vicinity of the sky to communicate with the rovers for about eight minutes at a time, per sol. In that time, about 60 megabits of data (about 1/100 of a CD) can be transmitted to an orbiter. That same 60 megabits would take between 1.5 and 5 hours to transmit direct to Earth. The rovers can only transmit direct-to-Earth for at most three hours a day due to power and thermal limitations, even though Earth may be in view much longer.
Mars is rotating on its own axis so Mars often "turns its back" to Earth, taking the rover with it. The rover is turned out of the field of view of Earth and goes "dark", just like nighttime on Earth, when the sun goes out of the field of view of Earth at a certain location when the Earth turns its "back" to the sun. The orbiters can see Earth for about 2/3 of each orbit, or about 16 hours a day. They can send much more data direct-to-Earth than the rovers, not only because they can see Earth longer, but because they can operate their radio for much longer since their solar panels get light most of the time, and they have bigger antennas than the rovers."
Link to the above quote & more info titled Communications with Earth: The NASA Deep Space Network (DSN)
http://marsrover.nasa.gov/mission/communications.html
57DugsBooks
NASA Curiosity Rover Detects No Methane On Mars
Reads the headline on this article from NASA's Curiosity site. Introductory paragraphs as quoted below.
"PASADENA, Calif. -- Data from NASA's Curiosity rover has revealed the Martian environment lacks methane. This is a surprise to researchers because previous data reported by U.S. and international scientists indicated positive detections.
The roving laboratory performed extensive tests to search for traces of Martian methane. Whether the Martian atmosphere contains traces of the gas has been a question of high interest for years because methane could be a potential sign of life, although it also can be produced without biology.
"This important result will help direct our efforts to examine the possibility of life on Mars," said Michael Meyer, NASA's lead scientist for Mars exploration. "It reduces the probability of current methane-producing Martian microbes, but this addresses only one type of microbial metabolism. As we know, there are many types of terrestrial microbes that don't generate methane.""
This picture shows a lab demonstration of the measurement chamber inside the Tunable Laser Spectrometer, an instrument that is part of the Sample Analysis at Mars investigation on NASA's Curiosity rover. This demonstration uses visible lasers – rather than the infrared ones on the actual spectrometer – to show how the lasers bounce between the mirrors in the measurement chamber.
The TLS shoots laser beams into a type of measurement chamber that can be filled with Mars air. By measuring the absorption of light at specific wavelengths, the tool can measure concentrations of methane, carbon dioxide and water vapor in the Martian atmosphere and different isotopes of those gases.
Reads the headline on this article from NASA's Curiosity site. Introductory paragraphs as quoted below.
"PASADENA, Calif. -- Data from NASA's Curiosity rover has revealed the Martian environment lacks methane. This is a surprise to researchers because previous data reported by U.S. and international scientists indicated positive detections.
The roving laboratory performed extensive tests to search for traces of Martian methane. Whether the Martian atmosphere contains traces of the gas has been a question of high interest for years because methane could be a potential sign of life, although it also can be produced without biology.
"This important result will help direct our efforts to examine the possibility of life on Mars," said Michael Meyer, NASA's lead scientist for Mars exploration. "It reduces the probability of current methane-producing Martian microbes, but this addresses only one type of microbial metabolism. As we know, there are many types of terrestrial microbes that don't generate methane.""
This picture shows a lab demonstration of the measurement chamber inside the Tunable Laser Spectrometer, an instrument that is part of the Sample Analysis at Mars investigation on NASA's Curiosity rover. This demonstration uses visible lasers – rather than the infrared ones on the actual spectrometer – to show how the lasers bounce between the mirrors in the measurement chamber.
The TLS shoots laser beams into a type of measurement chamber that can be filled with Mars air. By measuring the absorption of light at specific wavelengths, the tool can measure concentrations of methane, carbon dioxide and water vapor in the Martian atmosphere and different isotopes of those gases.
58DugsBooks
Here is a link to an article "Science Gains From Diverse Landing Area of Curiosity" at the Curiosity site which a summation of sorts of discoveries made by Curiosity. It is of special interest to me because of the statement:
"A key finding is that water molecules are bound to fine-grained soil particles, accounting for about 2 percent of the particles' weight at Gale Crater where Curiosity landed. This result has global implications, because these materials are likely distributed around the Red Planet."
Maybe that 2% is a harvestable amount under some circumstances. The article is getting buried in other news so I thought I would link to it.
::edit:: At the bottom of the article there are links to the formal published papers - but I think there is a paywall for some.
The photo below is labeled "Target: Jake Matijevic Rock" as NASA still tries to cover up the discovery of the very tip of a buried, million years+ old pyramid.
"A key finding is that water molecules are bound to fine-grained soil particles, accounting for about 2 percent of the particles' weight at Gale Crater where Curiosity landed. This result has global implications, because these materials are likely distributed around the Red Planet."
Maybe that 2% is a harvestable amount under some circumstances. The article is getting buried in other news so I thought I would link to it.
::edit:: At the bottom of the article there are links to the formal published papers - but I think there is a paywall for some.
The photo below is labeled "Target: Jake Matijevic Rock" as NASA still tries to cover up the discovery of the very tip of a buried, million years+ old pyramid.
59pgmcc
That's not the tip of a buried million years+ pyramid. It's simply a block of stone that fell off some old building or other. Just pan to the right or the left and we can all see the ruins of the building.
Doh!
Doh!
60DugsBooks
I'm sorry to have to point this out, but if you put on your archaeologist hat and examine the works closely you will notice those structures are built by a vastly inferior culture and from the rubble of the pyramids {which were of course constructed by Martians at their zenith}. ;-)
61DugsBooks
#52 guido47 Said In reply to a post stating: "Doesn't String theory depend on more dimensions - up to 11 or so? Seems I remember reading that somewhere.& replied below with:
"Well, I have started to read Out of this world Colliding Seems OK, and worth a look."
A bit off topic but anyway here is Prof. Michio Kaku giving a broad, non detailed, 4 minute, explanation for the 11 dimensions. {link below}
http://video.answers.com/dr-michio-kaku-on-why-the-universe-has-11-dimensions-51...
"Well, I have started to read Out of this world Colliding Seems OK, and worth a look."
A bit off topic but anyway here is Prof. Michio Kaku giving a broad, non detailed, 4 minute, explanation for the 11 dimensions. {link below}
http://video.answers.com/dr-michio-kaku-on-why-the-universe-has-11-dimensions-51...
62DugsBooks
Several new visitors headed to Mars from various countries.
The USA's and NASA's Maven, Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN, satellite is due for launch on Monday Nov. 18th
Mangalyaan, India's Mars probe is on its way to Mars, looking for Methane so they say. ::edit:: link to official site http://www.isro.org/mars/home.aspx
In orbit around Mars and functioning are NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter launched in 2005 and Mars Odyssey was launched in 2001
The European Space Agency's Mars Express Mission launched in 2003 is still orbiting Mars, making the red planet an international exploratory effort. Graphic below from the site.
For the past decade, ESA's Mars Express orbiter has been observing atmospheric structure on the Red Planet. Among its discoveries is the presence of three separate ozone layers, each with its own characteristics. A new comparison of spacecraft data with computer models explains how global atmospheric circulation creates a layer of ozone above the planet's southern winter pole.
The USA's and NASA's Maven, Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN, satellite is due for launch on Monday Nov. 18th
Mangalyaan, India's Mars probe is on its way to Mars, looking for Methane so they say. ::edit:: link to official site http://www.isro.org/mars/home.aspx
In orbit around Mars and functioning are NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter launched in 2005 and Mars Odyssey was launched in 2001
The European Space Agency's Mars Express Mission launched in 2003 is still orbiting Mars, making the red planet an international exploratory effort. Graphic below from the site.
For the past decade, ESA's Mars Express orbiter has been observing atmospheric structure on the Red Planet. Among its discoveries is the presence of three separate ozone layers, each with its own characteristics. A new comparison of spacecraft data with computer models explains how global atmospheric circulation creates a layer of ozone above the planet's southern winter pole.
63DugsBooks
Comet Siding Spring will have a close encounter with Mars on October 19th 2014 according to the NASA article. So close that the satellites orbiting Mars are planning evasive maneuvers for the event. Great graphics at the link.
Meanwhile Curiosity keeps on trucking as it "4 wheels" through some sand dunes as displayed below.
"ASA's Curiosity Mars rover used the Navigation Camera (Navcam) on its mast to catch this look-back eastward at wheel tracks from driving through and past "Dingo Gap" inside Gale Crater. The gap, spanned by a 3-foot-tall (1-meter-tall) dune, is at the right-hand side of the horizon in this scene. Curiosity crossed the dune on the 535th Martian day, or sol, of the rover's work on Mars (Feb. 6). On Sol 538 (Feb. 9), it drove 135 feet (41.1 meters) farther westward. This image was taken on Sol 539 (Feb. 10) from the location reached by the previous sol's drive. For scale, the distance between the parallel wheel tracks is about 9 feet (2.7 meters)."
Meanwhile Curiosity keeps on trucking as it "4 wheels" through some sand dunes as displayed below.
"ASA's Curiosity Mars rover used the Navigation Camera (Navcam) on its mast to catch this look-back eastward at wheel tracks from driving through and past "Dingo Gap" inside Gale Crater. The gap, spanned by a 3-foot-tall (1-meter-tall) dune, is at the right-hand side of the horizon in this scene. Curiosity crossed the dune on the 535th Martian day, or sol, of the rover's work on Mars (Feb. 6). On Sol 538 (Feb. 9), it drove 135 feet (41.1 meters) farther westward. This image was taken on Sol 539 (Feb. 10) from the location reached by the previous sol's drive. For scale, the distance between the parallel wheel tracks is about 9 feet (2.7 meters)."
64DugsBooks
A news release today on the status of the European Space Agencys Mars effort, to launch a rover to the planet in 2018. Evidently they have a giant sand box for the prototype rovers to play in & developers to experiment with.
Their objectives as stated on the website:
"The 2016 mission includes a Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) and an Entry, Descent and Landing Demonstrator Module (EDM). The Orbiter will carry scientific instruments to detect and study atmospheric trace gases, such as methane. The EDM will contain sensors to evaluate the lander’s performance as it descends, and additional sensors to study the environment at the landing site. The 2018 mission includes a rover that will carry a drill and a suite of instruments dedicated to exobiology and geochemistry research."
Link to article with photos below:
Their objectives as stated on the website:
"The 2016 mission includes a Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) and an Entry, Descent and Landing Demonstrator Module (EDM). The Orbiter will carry scientific instruments to detect and study atmospheric trace gases, such as methane. The EDM will contain sensors to evaluate the lander’s performance as it descends, and additional sensors to study the environment at the landing site. The 2018 mission includes a rover that will carry a drill and a suite of instruments dedicated to exobiology and geochemistry research."
Link to article with photos below:
65DugsBooks
Curiosity Finds Iron Meteorite on Mars Neat photo. These guys will probably be very valuable to the first people/robots to fabricate things on Mars. Curiosity recently celebrated its one Martian year anniversary on the planet. This is a large chunk of metal, the link says over 2 meters for the one pictured and there are several of them in the area.
66DugsBooks
It appears Curiosity has finished the easy stuff and is now about to scale a mountain - Mt. Sharp on Mars. This is the original mission plan for Curiosity and I look forward to the new photo vistas that will be provided. Here is a link to a short 1.25 minute video presentation by the Mars Curiosity staff of the journey ahead.
The wheels of Curiosity are showing wear and hopefully it will not have to drive over any more damaging bones like the one below ;-)
http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/images/?ImageID=6538
The wheels of Curiosity are showing wear and hopefully it will not have to drive over any more damaging bones like the one below ;-)
http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/images/?ImageID=6538
67DugsBooks
India has joined an exclusive club {USA, European Space agency, Russia } by putting a satellite in orbit around Mars. A huge media event, as I understand it the success is unique in that it is the only time this has been done on the first try. A link to the home webpage of Indian Space Research Organization {ISRO} .
http://www.isro.org/mars/home.aspx
::edit:: I think I ripped the "exclusive club" term from an article - probably space.com
One of the first images of Mars by the spacecraft.
http://www.isro.org/mars/home.aspx
::edit:: I think I ripped the "exclusive club" term from an article - probably space.com
One of the first images of Mars by the spacecraft.
68dukedom_enough
Yes, very cool. It's good to see countries beyond the usual suspects exploring the planets. And they did it so inexpensively.
69DugsBooks
Link to NASA's photos of Siding Spring below. The photos from satellites and rovers are still being developed/processed at this time as I understand it.
http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/mro/mars-orbiter-image-shows-comet-nucleus-is-small/inde...
http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/mro/mars-orbiter-image-shows-comet-nucleus-is-small/inde...
70DugsBooks
Europe & Russia's ExoMars mission will try to land a research station{Schiaparelli lander} on Mars tomorrow 10/19/16 Wednesday. Space.com has a link to observe the event at:
http://www.space.com/34437-exomars-2016-mars-landing-complete-coverage.html?utm_...
The ESA website has probably a better link and you can poke around there at the link below. I will be pushing a bolder up a hill somewhere and not be able to watch, I hope they get some good video of the landing.
http://www.esa.int/ESA
http://www.space.com/34437-exomars-2016-mars-landing-complete-coverage.html?utm_...
The ESA website has probably a better link and you can poke around there at the link below. I will be pushing a bolder up a hill somewhere and not be able to watch, I hope they get some good video of the landing.
http://www.esa.int/ESA
71DugsBooks
Well it looks like the ESA has their Trace Gas Orbiter satellite in place orbiting Mars but the Schiaparelli lander has evidently made another shiny crater on Mars.
Ironically the news video of the ESA's explanation of the Schiaparelli lander results also has issues link below:
http://www.esa.int/spaceinvideos/Videos/2016/10/ExoMars_press_briefing_20_Octobe...
72stellarexplorer
>71 DugsBooks: Nice picture nonetheless!
73DugsBooks
While reading an article on the ExoMars event "Zooniverse" was mentioned and is new to me. It is an interesting site where you can participate in different research projects {anyone else ever run a program in the background of their computer looking for evidence of aliens in raw data?}. I have just glanced at the site but hope to have time to poke around it later.
https://www.zooniverse.org/projects
"Planet Four" is a "Zoon" site where you can "Help planetary scientists characterize surfaces on Mars by examining images taken with the Context Camera". https://www.planetfour.org/
https://www.zooniverse.org/projects
"Planet Four" is a "Zoon" site where you can "Help planetary scientists characterize surfaces on Mars by examining images taken with the Context Camera". https://www.planetfour.org/
74stellarexplorer
Very cool - I had not known about this.
75DugsBooks
New photo of the Schiaparelli module crater on Mars & link to ESA site with photo:
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Detailed_images_of_Schia...
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/Detailed_images_of_Schia...
77DugsBooks
Some seemingly contradictory news items from Mars:
The most recent is the discovery of a huge water trove on Mars; Mars Ice Deposit Holds as Much Water as Lake Superior
Earlier in the year another article described how very little water there is on Mars, as is observed by the rate of oxidation of Martian metallic meteorites {see >65 DugsBooks:}
"This chemical weathering process depends on the presence of water. It takes at least 10 and possibly up to 10,000 times longer on Mars to reach the same levels of rust formation than in the driest deserts on Earth and points to the present-day extreme aridity that has persisted on Mars for millions of years" is the conclusion of University of Stirling led research team.
http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=...
The most recent metal meteorite discovered by Curiosity, Looks like it would make a nice "worry" stone - to rub while fretting.
The most recent is the discovery of a huge water trove on Mars; Mars Ice Deposit Holds as Much Water as Lake Superior
Earlier in the year another article described how very little water there is on Mars, as is observed by the rate of oxidation of Martian metallic meteorites {see >65 DugsBooks:}
"This chemical weathering process depends on the presence of water. It takes at least 10 and possibly up to 10,000 times longer on Mars to reach the same levels of rust formation than in the driest deserts on Earth and points to the present-day extreme aridity that has persisted on Mars for millions of years" is the conclusion of University of Stirling led research team.
http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=...
The most recent metal meteorite discovered by Curiosity, Looks like it would make a nice "worry" stone - to rub while fretting.
78pgmcc
Great picture.
Is there any conjecture about the veining in the rock? It appears to be softer than the host rock so is not likely to be quartz, an hypothesis supported by the chalk-like whiteness of the veins.
By the way, thank you for your posts on Mars. I may not comment much but I am lurking here and I do appreciate your posts.
Is there any conjecture about the veining in the rock? It appears to be softer than the host rock so is not likely to be quartz, an hypothesis supported by the chalk-like whiteness of the veins.
By the way, thank you for your posts on Mars. I may not comment much but I am lurking here and I do appreciate your posts.
79DugsBooks
>78 pgmcc: Yep, that's a Betty Grable pin up photo for a geologist isn't it? ;-)
I read where Curiosity had analyzed the material to some extent and there is an explanation of the formation of the veins and their composition but I did not bookmark it and have forgotten details. I will poke around the site and see if can locate that at a later time.
I read where Curiosity had analyzed the material to some extent and there is an explanation of the formation of the veins and their composition but I did not bookmark it and have forgotten details. I will poke around the site and see if can locate that at a later time.
80DugsBooks
Aha, did a search for "veins" at the Curiosity site: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/search/?q=veins&x=0&y=0
A quote from the article at the top of the list: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&New...
"Curiosity examined bright and dark mineral veins in March 2015 at a site called "Garden City," where some veins protrude as high as two finger widths above the eroding bedrock in which they formed.
“The diverse composition of the crisscrossing veins points to multiple episodes of water moving through fractures in the bedrock when it was buried. During some wet periods, water carried different dissolved substances than during other wet periods. When conditions dried, fluids left clues behind that scientists are now analyzing for insights into how ancient environmental conditions changed over time"
I am not sure that the veins near the meteorite are of the same composition but they look like their formation was of the same sort as speculated for "Garden City"
Edit: Those veins in >77 DugsBooks: look indented, ::edit:: as pgmcc notes, whereas those in the Garden City photo are protruding hmmm, differences in the vein - bedrock composition make them more or less susceptible to erosion? and what type of erosion, water or other?
A quote from the article at the top of the list: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&New...
"Curiosity examined bright and dark mineral veins in March 2015 at a site called "Garden City," where some veins protrude as high as two finger widths above the eroding bedrock in which they formed.
“The diverse composition of the crisscrossing veins points to multiple episodes of water moving through fractures in the bedrock when it was buried. During some wet periods, water carried different dissolved substances than during other wet periods. When conditions dried, fluids left clues behind that scientists are now analyzing for insights into how ancient environmental conditions changed over time"
I am not sure that the veins near the meteorite are of the same composition but they look like their formation was of the same sort as speculated for "Garden City"
Edit: Those veins in >77 DugsBooks: look indented, ::edit:: as pgmcc notes, whereas those in the Garden City photo are protruding hmmm, differences in the vein - bedrock composition make them more or less susceptible to erosion? and what type of erosion, water or other?
81DugsBooks
>78 pgmcc: How about Calcium Sulfate? This article & short film {good!} about the importance of the discovery of Boron on Mars seems to show an analysis of similar veins and both were in a "former lakebed" at one time or another I believe.
http://www.space.com/35018-mars-support-life-millions-years-curiosity-rover.html
http://www.space.com/35018-mars-support-life-millions-years-curiosity-rover.html
83pgmcc
>80 DugsBooks: The type of veins I would have found on Earth would generally be either quartz or calcite. The former is very hard and would tend to stand up to weathering more than any softer host rock in which it was located. The picture in the article where the veins are shown to stand out from the host rock would indicate the veins would be hard like quartz. The weathering of the host rock looks like it could be due to wind erosion.
Of course, having not studied Martian geology I could be totally off base.
Of course, having not studied Martian geology I could be totally off base.
84pgmcc
>79 DugsBooks: Yep, that's a Betty Grable pin up photo for a geologist isn't it? ;-)
Agreed!
I am trying to persuade my wife to let me print it off and pin it to our bedroom wall. ;-)
Agreed!
I am trying to persuade my wife to let me print it off and pin it to our bedroom wall. ;-)
85DugsBooks
https://phys.org/news/2017-03-nasa-magnetic-shield-mars-atmosphere.html
Above link is to an article describing an idea floated by NASA "by positioning a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1 Lagrange Point, an artificial magnetosphere could be formed that would encompass the entire planet, thus shielding it from solar wind and radiation." very interesting article with a lot of detail but not completely overwhelming. The anticipated result is quite startling - returning a liquid water capable atmospheric density to the planet of Mars! Sounds like a Kim Stanley Robinson novel. Illustration below ripped from article site.
Above link is to an article describing an idea floated by NASA "by positioning a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1 Lagrange Point, an artificial magnetosphere could be formed that would encompass the entire planet, thus shielding it from solar wind and radiation." very interesting article with a lot of detail but not completely overwhelming. The anticipated result is quite startling - returning a liquid water capable atmospheric density to the planet of Mars! Sounds like a Kim Stanley Robinson novel. Illustration below ripped from article site.
86stellarexplorer
Now there's an idea!
87jjwilson61
>85 DugsBooks: The article doesn't say how it would be powered? Would a small nuclear power plant be necessary?
88DugsBooks
>87 jjwilson61: Not sure, not an expert here. I glanced over another article about the same and I think there was a question about a power source there also. Have to search out the official NASA statement or discussion I guess.
89drneutron
>87 jjwilson61: I'm guessing more than a *small* nuclear power plant. That's a lot of energy.
90DugsBooks
I still have the same question as >87 jjwilson61: about how the artificial "magnetosphere" would be powered and after re reading the articles it gives the strength in Tesla the sphere needs to be and the distance from Mars of the L1 point but not the size the magnetosphere would need to be as far as I can tell.
The only idea I can come up with using my weak math skills would be a right angle cone with the diameter of Mars as the circular base and the vertex the surface of the sun with the diameter of the the circular conic section of the cone at the L1 Lagrange point distance being an approximate size the magnetosphere needs to be?{illustration below}
I have however during the course of my wine driven online research discovered that it takes a field strength of 16 Tesla to levitate/suspend a live frog, a fact which must figure into the equation somewhere I am sure. Perhaps in piloting the satellite ? ;-)
By Lijnis Nelemans - English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1004796
::edit:: Aha, I found an article that actually links to one of the papers published on the magnetosphere {not frog!} topic.
Paper at this link : https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf
Article that gave link; http://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-wants-to-launch-a-giant-magnetic-shield-to-make...
The only idea I can come up with using my weak math skills would be a right angle cone with the diameter of Mars as the circular base and the vertex the surface of the sun with the diameter of the the circular conic section of the cone at the L1 Lagrange point distance being an approximate size the magnetosphere needs to be?{illustration below}
I have however during the course of my wine driven online research discovered that it takes a field strength of 16 Tesla to levitate/suspend a live frog, a fact which must figure into the equation somewhere I am sure. Perhaps in piloting the satellite ? ;-)
By Lijnis Nelemans - English Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1004796
::edit:: Aha, I found an article that actually links to one of the papers published on the magnetosphere {not frog!} topic.
Paper at this link : https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf
Article that gave link; http://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-wants-to-launch-a-giant-magnetic-shield-to-make...
91pgmcc
Hmmm! So, while we measure the power of car engines in horse-power we shall be measuring the power of solar wind shields in frog-power.
That would be quite a technological leap.
I like it.
That would be quite a technological leap.
I like it.
92MaureenRoy
The next generation of US Mars rover will be ready for launch in May 2018. This SCIAM article has the latest details:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nasa-rsquo-s-next-mars-lander-zooms-t...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nasa-rsquo-s-next-mars-lander-zooms-t...
93DugsBooks
Beagle
2: How We Found Our Lost Mars Lander After a Decade (And What's Next)
Link to an interesting article on the lost European Mars lander Beagle and thoughts of the author of events to come.
2: How We Found Our Lost Mars Lander After a Decade (And What's Next)
Link to an interesting article on the lost European Mars lander Beagle and thoughts of the author of events to come.
94stellarexplorer
Cool article. I had missed (or forgotten!) that the remains had been located. The future rovers are exciting, as is the possibility of specimen retrieval. I’m also excited at the eventual Titan mission. It would be great to get some answers in my lifetime to the question of how much prebiotic chemistry has developed in these places!
95DugsBooks
Here is a link to the Insight, Mars mission which is mentioned in >92 MaureenRoy: Should be an exciting event this May? of 2018.
https://insight.jpl.nasa.gov/home.cfm
>94 stellarexplorer: Europa will be interesting also....
edit in::::
And I just saw this story on an advance in the Titan mission:
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/nasa-may-send-dragonfly-drone-alien-world-n...
https://insight.jpl.nasa.gov/home.cfm
>94 stellarexplorer: Europa will be interesting also....
edit in::::
And I just saw this story on an advance in the Titan mission:
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/nasa-may-send-dragonfly-drone-alien-world-n...
96stellarexplorer
And this one with more textual info:
https://www.space.com/39168-nasa-comet-sample-titan-quadcopter-missions.html
https://www.space.com/39168-nasa-comet-sample-titan-quadcopter-missions.html
97DugsBooks
Steep Slopes on Mars Reveal Structure of Buried Ice
The above link to a NASA article about the finding of water on Mars with more certainty than before {>77 DugsBooks: } . I would have thought this discovery would make a bigger splash in the news but I read mostly about political foibles also ;-)
A couple of quotes from the article:
"There is shallow ground ice under roughly a third of the Martian surface, which records the recent history of Mars," said the study's lead author, Colin Dundas of the U.S. Geological Survey's Astrogeology Science Center in Flagstaff, Arizona. "What we've seen here are cross-sections through the ice that give us a 3-D view with more detail than ever before."
"Astronauts could essentially just go there with a bucket and a shovel and get all the water they need," Byrne said.
Pointed to this article by an extremetech piece on the subject.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/261930-nasa-finds-vast-deposits-ice-just-mar...
98DugsBooks
May 5th is the day set for the new InSight lander launch to Mars. At a billion dollars I hope all goes well. Drilling cores in the surface of Mars will drastically increase the knowledge base of the planet.
Inside the Cleanroom Where NASA’s New Mars Lander Waits to Launch Is an interesting Wired article about visiting the lander while under construction.
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/ is a link to an official InSight NASA web site and it has links you can use to watch the "west coast" launch live on May 5th
Great link to NASA showing instrumentation on InSight. https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/mission/lander/
Inside the Cleanroom Where NASA’s New Mars Lander Waits to Launch Is an interesting Wired article about visiting the lander while under construction.
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/ is a link to an official InSight NASA web site and it has links you can use to watch the "west coast" launch live on May 5th
Great link to NASA showing instrumentation on InSight. https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/mission/lander/
99pgmcc
Thank you, again, for posting these items. I missed >97 DugsBooks: until today. Like you I am amazed it has not had a higher profile on the media.
The new lander looks exciting.
The new lander looks exciting.
100DugsBooks
>99 pgmcc: No problem, I like putting stuff where I can find it again. "Buckets of water on Mars" takes me back to early SF stories with water canals on Mars .
NASA's Mars Cubesats 'Wall-E' and 'Eva' Will Be First at Another Planet Is an interesting article on 2 "cubesats" that will be accompanying the InSight lander. I hope they play out well, carry a few cubesats for other countries and we could subsidize our Mars missions.
NASA's Mars Cubesats 'Wall-E' and 'Eva' Will Be First at Another Planet Is an interesting article on 2 "cubesats" that will be accompanying the InSight lander. I hope they play out well, carry a few cubesats for other countries and we could subsidize our Mars missions.
101DugsBooks
There was a "Humans to Mars" discussion event on May 10th, I missed it {got to pay mortgage!} but at this link the event is available for streaming:
https://livestream.com/viewnow/HumanstoMars2018
Here is a quote from the site explaining the event:
Humans to Mars 2018
Tue, May 8 at 8:30am - Thu, May 10 at 1:30pm EDT Science & Technology
The Humans To Mars Summit (H2M) embodies the core mission of Explore Mars, Inc., which is to advance humanity to the Martian surface by the 2030s. H2M provides an unparalleled platform to industry, government, and the scientific, entertainment, and academic communities, to present developing hardware and other innovations, to collaborate and to foster partnerships, to affect space policy, and to encourage students to pursue STEAM careers. H2M is an important part of Explore Mars' educational mission to communicate and to inspire and to convey to the general public the importance of the human exploration of Mars to our future.
https://livestream.com/viewnow/HumanstoMars2018
Here is a quote from the site explaining the event:
Humans to Mars 2018
Tue, May 8 at 8:30am - Thu, May 10 at 1:30pm EDT Science & Technology
The Humans To Mars Summit (H2M) embodies the core mission of Explore Mars, Inc., which is to advance humanity to the Martian surface by the 2030s. H2M provides an unparalleled platform to industry, government, and the scientific, entertainment, and academic communities, to present developing hardware and other innovations, to collaborate and to foster partnerships, to affect space policy, and to encourage students to pursue STEAM careers. H2M is an important part of Explore Mars' educational mission to communicate and to inspire and to convey to the general public the importance of the human exploration of Mars to our future.
102DugsBooks
Late getting this posted but NASA is promoting a live discussion on new Rover findings which are touted as exciting, Quote :
"The media and public are invited to ask questions during a live discussion at 11 a.m. PDT (2 p.m. EDT) Thursday, June 7, on new science results from NASA's Mars Curiosity rover. The results are embargoed by the journal Science until then.
The event will air live on NASA Television and the agency's website."
Link: https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
"The media and public are invited to ask questions during a live discussion at 11 a.m. PDT (2 p.m. EDT) Thursday, June 7, on new science results from NASA's Mars Curiosity rover. The results are embargoed by the journal Science until then.
The event will air live on NASA Television and the agency's website."
Link: https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
103stellarexplorer
Please do summarize for those of us sadly distracted by the need to pay the mortgage! :)
104DugsBooks
>103 stellarexplorer: hmmmm.... sounds like work! Here is what others who had the time {not me!} to listen in said:
"Yesterday (June 7), Curiosity mission scientists hit the world with an astrobiological one-two punch. The rover, they announced, had spotted organic molecules in ancient Red Planet rocks and identified a seasonal cycle in the concentration of atmospheric methane, suggesting that the gas is leaking from underground reservoirs.
https://www.space.com/40831-future-mars-rovers-search-alien-life.html?utm_source...
"Yesterday (June 7), Curiosity mission scientists hit the world with an astrobiological one-two punch. The rover, they announced, had spotted organic molecules in ancient Red Planet rocks and identified a seasonal cycle in the concentration of atmospheric methane, suggesting that the gas is leaking from underground reservoirs.
https://www.space.com/40831-future-mars-rovers-search-alien-life.html?utm_source...
105DugsBooks
Really great less than 2 minute video put together by NASA showing a Mars vista with the journey of the curiosity rover highlighted over it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=113&v=U5nrrnAukwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=113&v=U5nrrnAukwI
106stellarexplorer
Seasonal methane concentration variations. Interesting. Leading hypotheses about the seasonality?
107DugsBooks
I just skimmed over a couple of articles who of course were most concerned with the origin of the methane - organic or geologic. Just guessing temperature fluctuations might be a major factor in how much methane leaks out and of course the Mars Lifer people might postulate a higher bacterial metabolic activity with higher temperatures?
108DugsBooks
Big dust storm on Mars that now covers the entire planet. Both Curiosity and Opportunity rovers have their windshield wipers on I guess.
An article at Space.com that describes the event with NASA photos.
https://www.space.com/40952-mars-dust-storm-2018-covers-entire-planet.html?utm_s...
An article at Space.com that describes the event with NASA photos.
https://www.space.com/40952-mars-dust-storm-2018-covers-entire-planet.html?utm_s...
109stellarexplorer
So cool to be getting relevant updates about conditions on other planets that affect our efforts!
110DugsBooks
More water on Mars? - "Radar evidence of subglacial liquid water on Mars"
Excerpt from report "Radar profiles collected between May 2012 and December 2015 contain evidence of liquid water trapped below the ice of the South Polar Layered Deposits. "
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/07/24/science.aar7268?utm_campa...
Excerpt from report "Radar profiles collected between May 2012 and December 2015 contain evidence of liquid water trapped below the ice of the South Polar Layered Deposits. "
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/07/24/science.aar7268?utm_campa...
111stellarexplorer
The plot thickens!
112DugsBooks
NASA has an update on InSight, the latest Mars lander, as the satellite reaches the half way point on its trip to Mars.
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8361/nasas-insight-passes-halfway-to-mars-instruments...
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8361/nasas-insight-passes-halfway-to-mars-instruments...
113stellarexplorer
Great! Thanks for keeping us updated!
114pgmcc
>112 DugsBooks: I second stellarexplorer's thanks in post #113.
115DugsBooks
Just noticed that Mars is pretty vivid this evening, the rain has let up and we have clear skies for a change. It is very noticeably red/pink and about a hands width with your arm extended out from the moon. I think it is in a very close cycle to Earth.
I use the app Skyguide to confirm that.
I use the app Skyguide to confirm that.
116DugsBooks
Ack double posted for some reason. Deleted by author.
Will make use of this space, from NASA:
In 2018, Mars will appear brightest from July 27 to July 30
Mars Close Approach is July 31, 2018
That is the point in Mars' orbit when it comes closest to Earth. Mars will be at a distance of 35.8 million miles (57.6 million kilometers). Mars reaches its highest point around midnight -- about 35 degrees above the southern horizon, or one third of the distance between the horizon and overhead. Mars will be visible for much of the night.
By mid-August, Mars will become fainter as Mars and Earth travel farther away from each other in their orbits around the Sun.
Miss seeing Mars Close Approach in 2018? The next Mars Close Approach is Oct. 6, 2020.
Will make use of this space, from NASA:
In 2018, Mars will appear brightest from July 27 to July 30
Mars Close Approach is July 31, 2018
That is the point in Mars' orbit when it comes closest to Earth. Mars will be at a distance of 35.8 million miles (57.6 million kilometers). Mars reaches its highest point around midnight -- about 35 degrees above the southern horizon, or one third of the distance between the horizon and overhead. Mars will be visible for much of the night.
By mid-August, Mars will become fainter as Mars and Earth travel farther away from each other in their orbits around the Sun.
Miss seeing Mars Close Approach in 2018? The next Mars Close Approach is Oct. 6, 2020.
117stellarexplorer
I’m on vacation so less distracted than usual. Been noticing its brightness and relation to the moon the last several nights. Pretty spectacular
118DugsBooks
The dust storm on Mars continues to plague the rover Opportunity . Around the Internet there are some contentious articles about NASA's consideration of stopping trying to communicate with the rover. Opportunity is powered by solar as was Spirit the predecessor rover {which died due to becoming immobile I believe} and the dust has caused shut downs. Curiosity, the newest rover on Mars, is powered by a nuke engine and keeps on trucking defying the dust storm. *
Quote from the NASA site below: https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/mission/status_opportunityAll.html#sols-5190
" No signal from Opportunity has been heard since Sol 5111 (June 10, 2018), though NASA has approved a strategy for listening for the rover through January of 2019.
It is expected that Opportunity has experienced a low-power fault and perhaps, a mission clock fault and then an up-loss timer fault. The science team continues to listen for the rover either during the expected fault communication windows or listening over a broader range of times using the Deep Space Network Radio Science Receiver."
*"What powers Curiosity Rover?
The Curiosity Rover, which is as big as a large car, is also significantly larger and ten times heavier than previous Martian rovers. Enter the Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator, or MMRTP, an energy source that relies on the heat generated by decaying plutonium dioxide to run Curiosity.Aug 7, 2012"
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/428751/nuclear-generator-powers-curiosity-mar...
Fun fact:
"When was the first Mars rover?
Mars Pathfinder was a U.S. spacecraft that landed a base station with a roving probe on Mars on July 4, 1997. It consisted of a lander and a small 10.6 kilograms (23 lb) wheeled robotic rover named Sojourner, which was the first rover to operate on the surface of Mars."
Exploration of Mars - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Mars
Quote from the NASA site below: https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/mission/status_opportunityAll.html#sols-5190
" No signal from Opportunity has been heard since Sol 5111 (June 10, 2018), though NASA has approved a strategy for listening for the rover through January of 2019.
It is expected that Opportunity has experienced a low-power fault and perhaps, a mission clock fault and then an up-loss timer fault. The science team continues to listen for the rover either during the expected fault communication windows or listening over a broader range of times using the Deep Space Network Radio Science Receiver."
*"What powers Curiosity Rover?
The Curiosity Rover, which is as big as a large car, is also significantly larger and ten times heavier than previous Martian rovers. Enter the Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator, or MMRTP, an energy source that relies on the heat generated by decaying plutonium dioxide to run Curiosity.Aug 7, 2012"
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/428751/nuclear-generator-powers-curiosity-mar...
Fun fact:
"When was the first Mars rover?
Mars Pathfinder was a U.S. spacecraft that landed a base station with a roving probe on Mars on July 4, 1997. It consisted of a lander and a small 10.6 kilograms (23 lb) wheeled robotic rover named Sojourner, which was the first rover to operate on the surface of Mars."
Exploration of Mars - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Mars
120DugsBooks
The Mars Insight mission is due to land on Mars November 26th. A quote from the link at bottom:
Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.Monday, Nov. 26, 2 p.m.: NASA TV live coverage of InSight mission landing on Mars. Live landing commentary runs from 2-3:30 p.m. The Entry, Descent and Landing phase will be the final plunge of NASA's Mars InSight Lander through the Martian atmosphere. It lasts about six minutes and delivers the lander safely to the surface of the Red Planet.
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
121stellarexplorer
I wonder what the coverage will look like? Any cameras on the lander as it descends, or from above? Or will it be mostly reporting on telemetry from Earth?
122pgmcc
>121 stellarexplorer: This morning I was given a reminder of the landing on Titan some years ago and had a pleasant 20 minutes looking at the photographs and reading about the findings. The pictures from the descent were very interesting.
123DugsBooks
>121 stellarexplorer: Here is a quote from another NASA article:
“Two briefcase-sized spacecraft are flying behind InSight and will attempt to relay its signals to Earth. Belonging to a class of spacecraft called CubeSats, the MarCOs are being tested as a way for future missions to send home data during EDL.”
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/how-nasa-will-know-when-insight-touches-down
I am guessing the info will be relayed as received by a commentator with “artists renderings” of the events as they happen. I will be at work probably during the landing, would be a fun one to watch. Today on TV a NASA representative explained that only 40% of the attempted landings on Mars have been successful and that the USA is the only country to land on Mars without project ending mishap.
“Two briefcase-sized spacecraft are flying behind InSight and will attempt to relay its signals to Earth. Belonging to a class of spacecraft called CubeSats, the MarCOs are being tested as a way for future missions to send home data during EDL.”
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/how-nasa-will-know-when-insight-touches-down
I am guessing the info will be relayed as received by a commentator with “artists renderings” of the events as they happen. I will be at work probably during the landing, would be a fun one to watch. Today on TV a NASA representative explained that only 40% of the attempted landings on Mars have been successful and that the USA is the only country to land on Mars without project ending mishap.
124stellarexplorer
I read more from NASA today. No video, but I’d love to watch the coverage. I’ll be at work too :(
125stellarexplorer
>122 pgmcc: That Titan mission was a joy!
126DugsBooks
At the NASA given above , https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive, you can watch the landing at the link. Insight enters the atmosphere at 48 minutes 30 seconds into the video - so you can scroll ahead although the preface is great also.
127DugsBooks
First photo from Insight after the landing. Horizon of Mars is at the top and the dark blotches are dust/debris on the lens cover according to NASA.
128DugsBooks
Photo from Mars from another camera on Insight below. The solar cells have been deployed and batteries are charging so all is going well so far.
Yesterday during the post landing show a NASA administrator “backed away” from the USA being the only successful Mars landing by saying the Insight mission would not of have been possible without the global effort that went into it.
Link to Insight web page:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/insight/main/index.html
Yesterday during the post landing show a NASA administrator “backed away” from the USA being the only successful Mars landing by saying the Insight mission would not of have been possible without the global effort that went into it.
Link to Insight web page:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/insight/main/index.html
129DugsBooks
Just looking at the image above and wondering if the lander had set down on any of the sizable appearing boulders in the background would that of ended the mission? Does the lander scan the surface first?
130OakAnderson
So cool. Watching the video reminds me of how insignificant all the petty crap in life is. There are much bigger things.
131DugsBooks
Wow, did not know this existed. “Ice-filled Martian crater is a permanent winter wonderland”
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2188925-ice-filled-martian-crater-is-a-perm...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2188925-ice-filled-martian-crater-is-a-perm...
132DugsBooks
Image of the ice filled Korolev Crater and another couple of links to articles about it:
"filled with a mound of water ice 60 kilometres across and nearly 2 kilometres thick."
Extreme tech article:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282805-mars-express-sends-back-stunning-imag...
From the ESA home site:
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Express/Mars_Express_gets_f...
"filled with a mound of water ice 60 kilometres across and nearly 2 kilometres thick."
Extreme tech article:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282805-mars-express-sends-back-stunning-imag...
From the ESA home site:
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Express/Mars_Express_gets_f...
133DugsBooks
Well at 2:00 pm EST today, Feb.13th 2019 NASA is going to inform us of the Rover Opportunity's future. Article that pointed me to the site:
https://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Quote from the article:
"The briefing will follow NASA’s last planned attempts to communicate with Opportunity late Tuesday evening. The solar-powered rover last communicated with Earth June 10, 2018, as a planet-wide dust storm was blanketing the Red Planet."
https://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Quote from the article:
"The briefing will follow NASA’s last planned attempts to communicate with Opportunity late Tuesday evening. The solar-powered rover last communicated with Earth June 10, 2018, as a planet-wide dust storm was blanketing the Red Planet."
134DugsBooks
Well it looks like RIP Mars Rover Opportunity. NASA tried last week to communicate with the rover for the last time and it was not successful.
https://mashable.com/article/opportunity-rover-dead-mars/?utm_campaign=hp-h-2&am...
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7334
https://mashable.com/article/opportunity-rover-dead-mars/?utm_campaign=hp-h-2&am...
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7334
135stellarexplorer
It was a great run! So beyond expectations!
136DugsBooks
Well as many have probably read in the news the Mars Insight lander has run into a few problems with the >98 DugsBooks: Heat Flow Probe {check out the illustration} . The probe into the Martian soil is self powered with a "thumper/mole", as I understand it, that pulls the apparatus for the sensors behind it as it pounds into the soil. The problem is the probe went down a few feet then reached some kind of impasse and backed out. An effort was made to use Insight's shovel arm to hold the probe down but the first attempt was not successful. There has been a lot of good science from Insight despite the current problem the handlers say.
Having driven a lot of ground rods for electrical work I know what is needed is a good sledgehammer and long rod to get everything started but I charge by the hour and ask for travel time pay so NASA will probably stick with the current plan. ;-)
Mars InSight's 'Mole' Team Peers Into the Pit
Common Questions about InSight's 'Mole'
Having driven a lot of ground rods for electrical work I know what is needed is a good sledgehammer and long rod to get everything started but I charge by the hour and ask for travel time pay so NASA will probably stick with the current plan. ;-)
Mars InSight's 'Mole' Team Peers Into the Pit
Common Questions about InSight's 'Mole'
137DugsBooks
Some more interesting images while poking about on NASA site:
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/8292/martian-dust-devil-action-in-gale-crate...
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/22392/curiosity-observes-phobos-eclipse-sol-...
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/22393/curiosity-observes-deimos-eclipse-sol-...
138stellarexplorer
Thanks for the links. Wow, another planet with wind!
Look. I’ll chip in my fair share if you want to get up there with your sledgehammer!
Look. I’ll chip in my fair share if you want to get up there with your sledgehammer!
139WholeHouseLibrary
>137 DugsBooks: I've been away from all of this for too long, apparently. It's been a rough couple of years, and following any of this was not on my priority list at all.
So, my apologies for my ignorance. But the picture displayed looks like someone took four different images of landscapes that could be found here on Earth, and played around with Photoshop. For one, the sky in the upper left is blue. I've never seen an image from Mars where the sky is anything other that shades of red to brown, or gray.
For the record, I'm not a flat-Earth, Moon-landing-was-faked sort of whack job. I'm very much a fact-based realist. But that picture just looks wrong.
Explain it to me, please.
So, my apologies for my ignorance. But the picture displayed looks like someone took four different images of landscapes that could be found here on Earth, and played around with Photoshop. For one, the sky in the upper left is blue. I've never seen an image from Mars where the sky is anything other that shades of red to brown, or gray.
For the record, I'm not a flat-Earth, Moon-landing-was-faked sort of whack job. I'm very much a fact-based realist. But that picture just looks wrong.
Explain it to me, please.
141DugsBooks
>139 WholeHouseLibrary: I was confused also by the image when you make it larger, on an iPad for example, it seems to make more sense with sand dune details jumping out.
I will try to put down an url for the photo so it can be researched.
https://mars.nasa.gov/system/resources/detail_files/7879_mars-sand-dunes-PIA2075...
It is the shadowing on the dunes that really confuses the perception of distance it seems to me. Blow up the image if you can.
Aha here you go, a source for the photo:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nasa+mars+sand+dunes&client=safari&hl=en...
I will try to put down an url for the photo so it can be researched.
https://mars.nasa.gov/system/resources/detail_files/7879_mars-sand-dunes-PIA2075...
It is the shadowing on the dunes that really confuses the perception of distance it seems to me. Blow up the image if you can.
Aha here you go, a source for the photo:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nasa+mars+sand+dunes&client=safari&hl=en...
142DugsBooks
And from the above search a more detailed explanation of the dunes.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6551
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6551
143DugsBooks
Rocket arrives as China targets July for Tianwen-1 Mars mission launch
Title of article at SpaceNews describing China's launch date of July for a Mars orbiter and lander {image above} - ambitious plans!
144DugsBooks
The newest Mars Rover, Perseverance, is due to launch soon in July 2020 NASA has announced.
Another nail biting , edge of your seat, landing no doubt. Certainly hope all goes well, they have successful experiences to guide through the event so that raises my confidence level.
{follow link to official site} A quote from the site:
"The first launch opportunity begins at
~6:15 a.m. PDT/ 9:15 a.m. EDT on July 20
The launch period is approximately three weeks, from July 20 to August 11. The duration of the daily launch window varies from day to day. The launch windows will last approximately two hours, with a unique launch opportunity every five minutes."
Perseverance Rover has four objectives according to NASA; Looking for Habitability, Seeking Biosignatures,Caching Samples, and Preparing for Humans.
Science Instruments on NASA's Perseverance Mars Rover
145pgmcc
>144 DugsBooks: I love your posts. You are a great source of news about space exploration. You were praised last week in a thread in The Green Dragon group for your great posts.
I love the rover’s name. I look forward to reading about its discoveries.
I love the rover’s name. I look forward to reading about its discoveries.
146DugsBooks
>145 pgmcc: Thanks for the shout out. Just poking about the NASA site is usually the best way to find out stuff but I try to post links to info of most interest to me which can save time if you want a quick update/background on an event - a lot of cut-n-paste ;-)
>139 WholeHouseLibrary: Probably too little too late - my answers were terrible but my understanding is ALL the photos are manipulated to some extent. I know with some photos the wavelengths of reflected light are changed to what they would be on earth, in order to make rocks easier to identify for example. Usually you can find a very technical explanation of a photo if you "drill down" . I like to think the blue sky is "natural" but I am not sure - certainly surreal and gorgeous photos however.
>139 WholeHouseLibrary: Probably too little too late - my answers were terrible but my understanding is ALL the photos are manipulated to some extent. I know with some photos the wavelengths of reflected light are changed to what they would be on earth, in order to make rocks easier to identify for example. Usually you can find a very technical explanation of a photo if you "drill down" . I like to think the blue sky is "natural" but I am not sure - certainly surreal and gorgeous photos however.
147haydninvienna
I like the name too, but I’m still waiting for NASA (or possibly the ESA) to name one of its Mars explorers Endeavour (granted that was one of the Space Shuttle orbiters). Perseverance’s mission is quite similar to HMS Endeavour’s mission—and, come to think of it, the starship Enterprise’s—“to boldly go”, etc.
148pgmcc
>147 haydninvienna: I’m still waiting for NASA (or possibly the ESA) to name one of its Mars explorers Endeavour
I am sure the UK Space Agency has lobbied for that with the ESA. Did I mention that a school friend of mine was the head of the ESA Mars missions for a while. Unfortunately I lost touch with him after school and only heard what he was doing at a 30 year reunion. I believe he has retired now.
I am sure the UK Space Agency has lobbied for that with the ESA. Did I mention that a school friend of mine was the head of the ESA Mars missions for a while. Unfortunately I lost touch with him after school and only heard what he was doing at a 30 year reunion. I believe he has retired now.
149pgmcc
>146 DugsBooks: - a lot of cut-n-paste ;-)
A friend of mine used to use the quote, "If something has been said, and said well, have no scruples; take it and use it." I do not know the origin of the quote.
Of course, there is also the quote attributed to Einstein in relation to creativity: "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
A friend of mine used to use the quote, "If something has been said, and said well, have no scruples; take it and use it." I do not know the origin of the quote.
Of course, there is also the quote attributed to Einstein in relation to creativity: "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
150DugsBooks
The United Arab Emirates, HOPE Mars mission was due to launch today 7/14/2020 but has been weather delayed for 2 days.
https://www.mbrsc.ae/emirates-mars-mission
A quote from NASA on HOPE's objectives:
"The primary scientific objectives are to search for the connection between current martian weather and the ancient climate of Mars, study the loss mechanisms of Mars' atmosphere to space by tracking the behavior and escape of hydrogen and oxygen, investigate how the lower and upper levels of the martian atmosphere are connected, and create a global picture of how the martian atmosphere varies throughout the day and year."
Graphic of probe from this article below if I remember correctly ;-)
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/science/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-uae...
151DugsBooks
View of the Earth and Moon from the Chinese Mars mission while in route to Mars.
https://www.space.com/china-mars-mission-spots-earth-and-moon.html
>143 DugsBooks: >144 DugsBooks: >150 DugsBooks:
The USA, China and The United Arab Emirates all have their hardware on the way to Mars with successful launches. Below are the stats for the USA's Mars 2020 Mission, Perseverance Rover Launch:
Launched:
July 30 at 4:50 a.m. PDT (7:50 a.m. EDT)
Landing:
Feb. 18, 2021
Launch Vehicle:
Atlas V-541
Launch Location:
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida
152DugsBooks
Lots of Mars events stacking up as the three Mars missions have reached or are nearing their objective.
The Arab Emirates Mars, Hope Probe, has entered orbit around Mars. A new link to some more detailed information on the probe:
https://www.emiratesmarsmission.ae/
Gulf News video of the event, with commentary, which was live streamed in Dubai outside in a show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnD1LFrsgT4&ab_channel=GulfNews
The Arab Emirates Mars, Hope Probe, has entered orbit around Mars. A new link to some more detailed information on the probe:
https://www.emiratesmarsmission.ae/
Gulf News video of the event, with commentary, which was live streamed in Dubai outside in a show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnD1LFrsgT4&ab_channel=GulfNews
153DugsBooks
China's Tianwen-1 mission has reached Mars orbit one day behind the UAE's Hope probe and has sent back photos and a video documenting the event. More photos and the video at at the linked Space.com article.
China and the USA mission , arriving soon for the Feb. 18th landing, will both have landers and rovers which kick the technical difficulty up several notches from the already very complex task of reaching Mars - as noted from the number of failed Mars missions from various countries.
154stellarexplorer
Thanks for keeping us informed!
155pgmcc
What >154 stellarexplorer: said.
156DugsBooks
Information on the Perseverance Landing:
Links to watch the event starting at 2:15 EST Thursday Feb. 18th with the landing occurring at 3:55 pm EST
>Scroll down a couple of paragraphs at this NASA page to a chart titled "Upcoming
events" which has You Tube, NASA, Facebook etc links for viewing.
>"Here's how to watch NASA's Perseverance rover land on Mars on Thursday" ,is a link to a great Space.com article that covers all the bases.
>154 stellarexplorer: >155 pgmcc: Thanks but I am just posting some links for busy people to access the event if they like, news for the landing is all over the media. If someone wants to actually "host" an event to watch the landing I think there are resources at the NASA site. https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/resources/
158haydninvienna
FANTASTIC JOB, NASA!
159DugsBooks
Image and caption from NASA site. One of the first 3 images from Mars by Perseverance
"Mars Perseverance Sol 0: Front Left Hazard Avoidance Camera (Hazcam)
NASA's Mars Perseverance rover acquired this image of the area in front of it using its onboard Front Left Hazard Avoidance Camera A.
This image was acquired on Feb. 18, 2021 (Sol 0) at the local mean solar time of 20:58:24.
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech"
160stellarexplorer
Loved watching the landing today - at least from the control room!
161DugsBooks
>160 stellarexplorer: I think I read some time back that there was going to be an attempt at getting camera footage of the landing but it would be delayed . Hope that is true. Watching live video of the control room as it landed was pretty neat - just weird how quickly things went after such a long boring wait.
162mart1n
>161 DugsBooks: I think footage of the landing is expected in the next day or two. Low bandwidth and higher priorities.
It's all properly awe inspiring! Here's hoping Percy can live up to all that's expected of him.
It's all properly awe inspiring! Here's hoping Percy can live up to all that's expected of him.
163stellarexplorer
I loved seeing that people all around the world were watching. I prefer happy cheering for a good cause to attention through outrage.
165stellarexplorer
>164 haydninvienna: great pic!
166haydninvienna
>165 stellarexplorer: it is, isn’t it! Can’t wait for the full video of the descent.
167drneutron
Here's a picture of Perseverence hanging from the parachute about a minute before landing. This was taken from MRO about 700 km away.
168haydninvienna
And just in case you haven't seen it already: https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html. (After today--Astronomy Picture of the Day for 23 February.)
170stellarexplorer
Fantastic!
171DugsBooks
>167 drneutron: Great photo! I read that photographing the descent of Perseverence was going to be attempted - glad the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter was able to do that!
>168 haydninvienna: >169 mart1n: Great links!
Perseverance’s Eyes See a Different Mars is a Wired magazine article that covers the use of the cameras/optics on Mars and it goes into some detail. I know some have posted questions on this topic and the article increased my awareness and will even more after I read it again I am sure.
Wired allows a few free articles to be read for free before a paywall kicks in, the article is also reprinted at Inverse I believe.
:::edited my edits - must be a COVID excuse thing with LT proofreaders ;-) ::::
>168 haydninvienna: >169 mart1n: Great links!
Perseverance’s Eyes See a Different Mars is a Wired magazine article that covers the use of the cameras/optics on Mars and it goes into some detail. I know some have posted questions on this topic and the article increased my awareness and will even more after I read it again I am sure.
Wired allows a few free articles to be read for free before a paywall kicks in, the article is also reprinted at Inverse I believe.
:::edited my edits - must be a COVID excuse thing with LT proofreaders ;-) ::::
172haydninvienna
The landing site now has a name: Octavia E. Butler Landing.
173stellarexplorer
>172 haydninvienna: I love that they did that!
174DugsBooks
Ingenuity helicopter flies on Mars!! See the first pic & video
The title of a Space.com article that has a video, from the perspective of the Perseverance rover, of the first flight on Mars.
Neat fact, the helicopter has a small patch of cloth from the first Wright Brothers plane that flew in my home state of North Carolina. There is a monument to the event on the beach in North Carolina and while there you can notice all airplanes in the area dip their wings in a salute as they fly over. Photo below and link to description
.
Link to a more extensive article on the 'copter event below.
https://videos.space.com/m/eBSyQ16m/ingenuity-helicopter-flies-on-mars-see-the-f...
The title of a Space.com article that has a video, from the perspective of the Perseverance rover, of the first flight on Mars.
Neat fact, the helicopter has a small patch of cloth from the first Wright Brothers plane that flew in my home state of North Carolina. There is a monument to the event on the beach in North Carolina and while there you can notice all airplanes in the area dip their wings in a salute as they fly over. Photo below and link to description
.
Link to a more extensive article on the 'copter event below.
https://videos.space.com/m/eBSyQ16m/ingenuity-helicopter-flies-on-mars-see-the-f...
175DugsBooks
>82 pgmcc: Quote from PGMCC "Hmmm! Evidence of mushrooms on Mars?" - Good call!
Scientists Believe These Photos Show Mushrooms on Mars—and Proof of Life
Scientists Believe These Photos Show Mushrooms on Mars—and Proof of Life
First low gravity results for cultivated mushrooms on Mars below ? ;-)
176pgmcc
>175 DugsBooks: If only Matt Daemon had known.
177DugsBooks
Oh well ‘shrooms on Mars was a short lived high. Many articles are out now debunking the notion. I thought those round pebbles had been described as chondrites before & the “peeling off” of an outer layer looks like typical exfoliation some rocks do although under a short timeline as described in the bogus article.
Experts Shred Paper Claiming to Identify Mushrooms on Mars Is one article doing that.
https://futurism.com/experts-shred-paper-claiming-mushrooms-mars
The shrooms on Mars topic is not limited to the discussion above however;
Could Future Homes on the Moon and Mars Be Made of Fungi?
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/myco-architecture
Experts Shred Paper Claiming to Identify Mushrooms on Mars Is one article doing that.
https://futurism.com/experts-shred-paper-claiming-mushrooms-mars
The shrooms on Mars topic is not limited to the discussion above however;
Could Future Homes on the Moon and Mars Be Made of Fungi?
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/ames/myco-architecture
179al.vick
>177 DugsBooks: Gee...that's shocking... Extreme sarcasm!
180DugsBooks
>179 al.vick: I guess you are referring to the Futurism.com article with quotes including ;
“Claiming that mushrooms are sprouting all over Mars is an extraordinary claim that requires better evidence than an analysis of photographic morphology by a known crank who has claimed, on the basis of the same kind of analysis, that he has seen fields of skulls on Mars,” University of Minnesota, Morris, developmental biologist Paul Myers told CNET.'
instead of my snarky introductions. A simple solution is just to have the next rover that happens by a field of mushroom ensconced skulls pick up a few and examine them. ;-)
“Claiming that mushrooms are sprouting all over Mars is an extraordinary claim that requires better evidence than an analysis of photographic morphology by a known crank who has claimed, on the basis of the same kind of analysis, that he has seen fields of skulls on Mars,” University of Minnesota, Morris, developmental biologist Paul Myers told CNET.'
instead of my snarky introductions. A simple solution is just to have the next rover that happens by a field of mushroom ensconced skulls pick up a few and examine them. ;-)
182haydninvienna
Trust xkcd:
184DugsBooks
Quote from China Space Administration:
"Tianwen-1 probe will land on Mars in next few days
Date：2021-05-14
China’s first Mars exploration mission, Tianwen-1 probe has functioned normally since its successful launch on July 23rd, 2020. On February 10th, 2021, Tianwen-1 probe entered the Martian orbit for scientific exploration and huge amount of scientific data are available up to date. With the evaluation of the flight status, Tianwen-1 probe is scheduled to perform landing campaign targeting Utopia Planitia at the proper slot from the early morning of May 15th to May 19th Beijing time. "
So that could be tomorrow, Saturday morning. I wonder where Utopia Planitia is in relation to the USA's rovers? Will try to look that up. Pointed to this by article;
https://news.yahoo.com/china-says-first-mars-landing-104842091.html
"Tianwen-1 probe will land on Mars in next few days
Date：2021-05-14
China’s first Mars exploration mission, Tianwen-1 probe has functioned normally since its successful launch on July 23rd, 2020. On February 10th, 2021, Tianwen-1 probe entered the Martian orbit for scientific exploration and huge amount of scientific data are available up to date. With the evaluation of the flight status, Tianwen-1 probe is scheduled to perform landing campaign targeting Utopia Planitia at the proper slot from the early morning of May 15th to May 19th Beijing time. "
So that could be tomorrow, Saturday morning. I wonder where Utopia Planitia is in relation to the USA's rovers? Will try to look that up. Pointed to this by article;
https://news.yahoo.com/china-says-first-mars-landing-104842091.html
185DugsBooks
Once again wiki to the rescue. The above photo taken by "Viking Lander 2 at its Utopia Planitia landing site on May 18, 1979". Evidently the Chinese are looking for water sources. Link to wiki site below with much more info;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_Planitia
186DugsBooks
China releases first photos from their Mars rover. {link to China site}
I was starting to wonder if there were issues with the Zhurong rover but the photos released show it in good shape. Google has a translator function for the Chinese site and I had to grab the photo from the 24 hour tech link below.
https://24htech.asia/china-releases-photos-from-tianwen-1-mars-probe-after-landi...
https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-mars-rover-returns-first-111251359.html
187DugsBooks
I found one site that shows a global type map of Mars with the various rover landing sites. The Zhurong rover site on it has not been updated since the landing but gives a generalized area.
https://www.planetary.org/articles/map-every-mars-landing-attempt
https://www.planetary.org/articles/map-every-mars-landing-attempt
188DugsBooks
Ok it looks like the Chinese engineers have raised the goal on the "cuteness" standard of Mars photos with this release of a selfie from their Mars lander. The rover dropped off a camera, then returned to the side of the lander for an anthropomorphic snap shot that is perhaps influenced by the amount of time spent on wechat vacation photos by the rover designers. ;-)
Link to China site
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6759533/c6812126/content.html
Link to site photo is from:
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/photos-show-chinese-rover-dusty-rocky-mart...
190DugsBooks
It has been a while since anyone posted on the state of Mars exploration so I thought I would start to update. NASA's Mars rover Curiosity has been doing wonderful research until recently when small rocks were being bounced off it. Curiosity tracked down the culprit(s) to this entrance but sagaciously decided not to follow into the dark away from the sun.
NASA image original source:
https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/1064629/?site=msl
Gizmodo article that is the source for the image above.:
https://gizmodo.com/nasa-mars-curiosity-rover-doorway-1848922393
191MaureenRoy
InSight Mars lander's data on its strongest-ever recording of a Marsquake in May 2022:
https://news.yahoo.com/nasas-marsquake-mission-last-months-115531744.html
https://news.yahoo.com/nasas-marsquake-mission-last-months-115531744.html
192DugsBooks
>191 MaureenRoy: “The seismometer on Nasa's InSight probe will keep listening for Marsquakes even as other systems on the mission have to shut down due to declining power levels.”
Makes you wonder why they don’t have a rotating brush or some such on the robotic arm to clean the dust off the solar panels - not the first time that has happened. Much easier said than done I guess.
Makes you wonder why they don’t have a rotating brush or some such on the robotic arm to clean the dust off the solar panels - not the first time that has happened. Much easier said than done I guess.
193MaureenRoy
The JPL search for minerals on Mars:
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-mars-orbiter-releasing-one-of-its-last-rainbo...
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-mars-orbiter-releasing-one-of-its-last-rainbo...
195MaureenRoy
A type of suspended animation may make human travel to Mars safer:
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/10/10/can-humans-hibernate-to-travel-in-space
In another aspect of this report, it has been known for some time that water is an effective shield against radiation.
https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/10/10/can-humans-hibernate-to-travel-in-space
In another aspect of this report, it has been known for some time that water is an effective shield against radiation.
Aansluiten om berichten te kunnen plaatsen
