Vietnam War
DiscussieHistory: On learning from and writing history
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1Urquhart
We have a Civil War thread so herewith a Vietnam War thread and a book to start it off:
Kill Anything that moves
see:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-schell/vietnam-war-history_b_2495813.html
I am sure that LamSon can fill us in on this, but the message it sends frankly surprises me. I wonder if I am the only one who did not know all the stuff this book is saying...........
Ur.
Kill Anything that moves
see:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-schell/vietnam-war-history_b_2495813.html
I am sure that LamSon can fill us in on this, but the message it sends frankly surprises me. I wonder if I am the only one who did not know all the stuff this book is saying...........
Ur.
2BruceCoulson
I knew the broad outlines of the history; enough to realize that much of what was being done in Vietnam was pretty awful, and that the justifications for those actions were flimsy at best.
It's interesting to note that it's sometimes difficult to find books that admit that we lost the conflict; that we ultimately failed to achieve any of our stated objectives, and our withdrawal was merely a way of saving face.
As a bit of trivia, one of the real reasons we lost is that the leaders of North Vietnam understood the U.S. far better than we understood them, or their country. This datum popped up in, of all places, The Fiery Cross by Wyn Craig...
It's interesting to note that it's sometimes difficult to find books that admit that we lost the conflict; that we ultimately failed to achieve any of our stated objectives, and our withdrawal was merely a way of saving face.
As a bit of trivia, one of the real reasons we lost is that the leaders of North Vietnam understood the U.S. far better than we understood them, or their country. This datum popped up in, of all places, The Fiery Cross by Wyn Craig...
3wildbill
There is a two volume set Reporting Vietnam: American Journalism 1959-1969 and 1969-1979 that has what IMHO is some good journalism about the Vietnam War.
I'm old enough to have known a number of guys who fought over there and after talking to them I don't think I had a lot of illusions about what we were doing in Vietnam. One guy I knew operated a 20mm Gatling gun on a plane that flew real slow so he and the other gunners could shoot up anything that moved. He would get high on heroin and then fly around making a game out of machine gunning the countryside.
I remember the political liability of losing a country to communism. There was the China lobby headed up by Henry Luce at Time magazine.
I'm old enough to have known a number of guys who fought over there and after talking to them I don't think I had a lot of illusions about what we were doing in Vietnam. One guy I knew operated a 20mm Gatling gun on a plane that flew real slow so he and the other gunners could shoot up anything that moved. He would get high on heroin and then fly around making a game out of machine gunning the countryside.
I remember the political liability of losing a country to communism. There was the China lobby headed up by Henry Luce at Time magazine.
5aulsmith
Like wildbill, I'm also of an age where the vets are my contemporaries, and I have no illusions. By the end of the war, if a new lieutenant out of West Point was too gung ho on actually doing any fighting, the platoon (who were draftees for those of you too young to remember the draft) would take him out in the jungle and shoot him and then come back and tell the command that the goops got another officer. And you know, if I had been there, I'd have done the same. It would certainly have been more moral than killing peasant farmers.
Then there are all those MIAs we're always crying about, a number of whom got involved with the heroin trade up in the hills, walked off one day and simply decided to stay.
Then there are all those MIAs we're always crying about, a number of whom got involved with the heroin trade up in the hills, walked off one day and simply decided to stay.
7LamSon
Much of the material in 'Kill...' has been touched on in other works about the war, but this book brings it all together in one depressing volume.
To state the obvious; civilians are the ones who suffer most in war. The peasant farmer was screwed no matter what he did. By day he had to deal with US and ARVN troops and the VC at night. If he was too friendly toward one he was targeted by the other.
To state the obvious; civilians are the ones who suffer most in war. The peasant farmer was screwed no matter what he did. By day he had to deal with US and ARVN troops and the VC at night. If he was too friendly toward one he was targeted by the other.
8LamSon
Kill Anything That Moves deals with the American mistreatment of civilians during the war. The following RAND document is the other side of the coin.
Vietcong Repression and Its Implications for the Future (R-475/1-ARPA, May 1970) by Stephen Hosmer
Vietcong Repression and Its Implications for the Future (R-475/1-ARPA, May 1970) by Stephen Hosmer
9Urquhart
LamSon
I knew that Vietnam was your area of expertise, I just had not realized how thorough you were and how many documents you had at your finger tips.
Thank you.
Ur.
I knew that Vietnam was your area of expertise, I just had not realized how thorough you were and how many documents you had at your finger tips.
Thank you.
Ur.
11LamSon
Two more RAND documents of related interest.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5799.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5267z2.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5799.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5267z2.html
13bernsad
I've just finished reading Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War by Michael Maclear. It makes a good argument that the US were defeated before they even started, made a lot of the same mistakes that the French made before them and the public were systematically deceived the Government about the nature and extent of the war. Very interesting.
15LamSon
>14 Urquhart:
Ur,
Yes, that's how I would view things. There is the saying: the military is always prepared to fight the last war. The last war was WW II (and Korea) which were slug-fests between tanks, artillary and high profile invasions. Most of the ranking leaders in Vietnam cut their teeth in WW II and Korea and were unprepared for a low intensity guerilla war. And as Kill Anything That Moves shows the war was fought the wrong way. Relying on body count so heavily just invited abuse. It's hard to win hearts and minds when you are beating the crap out of an 80 year old farmer.
Ur,
Yes, that's how I would view things. There is the saying: the military is always prepared to fight the last war. The last war was WW II (and Korea) which were slug-fests between tanks, artillary and high profile invasions. Most of the ranking leaders in Vietnam cut their teeth in WW II and Korea and were unprepared for a low intensity guerilla war. And as Kill Anything That Moves shows the war was fought the wrong way. Relying on body count so heavily just invited abuse. It's hard to win hearts and minds when you are beating the crap out of an 80 year old farmer.
16BruceCoulson
I would merely add that if your enemy understands you and your culture, and you lack any understanding of theirs, you are yet futher handicapped.
17LamSon
>16 BruceCoulson:
Agreed
Agreed
18wildbill
For me the bottom line was that the Vietnamese were more willing to die since they were fighting for their own country. Their leadership understood that the Americans were not willing to see their young men die for a country on the other side of the world.
19LamSon
Also of related interest:
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/sheehanwarcrimesnyt71.pdf
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/sheehanwarcrimesnyt71.pdf
21LamSon
In the February Reading topic Ur asked:
LamSon,
Can you share with us what Kill Anything That Moves told you that you did not know before?
Nothing much in ‘Kill Anything That Moves’ was all that new. There are several books out there that make mention of atrocities by American forces. The impact of the book was the cover to cover accounts of atrocities.
Some things did occur to me while I read the book. These musings are not all that new and of course they are simply my view on things. They are certainly not the definitive or last word on the topic.
The NLF was supposedly fighting for the oppressed villager against the evils of the Americans and Saigon government. Yet they used these same people as human shields, knowing full well what would happen when they fired on an American patrol – air strikes or artillery would be called in to level the place. Time and time again the Americans fell into the propaganda opportunity for the VC.
There were many people who said that search and destroy missions and body counts as a measure of success were not the way to go. These folks usually had first hand experience out in the boonies. However, the war managers couldn’t understand that from air conditioned offices in Washington and Saigon. This is what happens when a glorified accountant is put in charge of the Pentagon – something needs to be counted and it might as well be bodies.
It’s hard to understand the mindset of the grunts and officers who committed the atrocities. How much better would things have been if the people were treated with respect? Yes, the troops needed to be vigilant, but why should they help when their fifteen year old daughters are being rapped, grandfathers being beaten and entire villages wiped out.
“I was just following orders’ doesn’t fly. I didn’t work for Nazis after WW II and it shouldn’t be a way of dodging responsibility now. It may be difficult to find good proof of the atrocities after so long a period, but if it exists, there should be prosecutions.
LamSon,
Can you share with us what Kill Anything That Moves told you that you did not know before?
Nothing much in ‘Kill Anything That Moves’ was all that new. There are several books out there that make mention of atrocities by American forces. The impact of the book was the cover to cover accounts of atrocities.
Some things did occur to me while I read the book. These musings are not all that new and of course they are simply my view on things. They are certainly not the definitive or last word on the topic.
The NLF was supposedly fighting for the oppressed villager against the evils of the Americans and Saigon government. Yet they used these same people as human shields, knowing full well what would happen when they fired on an American patrol – air strikes or artillery would be called in to level the place. Time and time again the Americans fell into the propaganda opportunity for the VC.
There were many people who said that search and destroy missions and body counts as a measure of success were not the way to go. These folks usually had first hand experience out in the boonies. However, the war managers couldn’t understand that from air conditioned offices in Washington and Saigon. This is what happens when a glorified accountant is put in charge of the Pentagon – something needs to be counted and it might as well be bodies.
It’s hard to understand the mindset of the grunts and officers who committed the atrocities. How much better would things have been if the people were treated with respect? Yes, the troops needed to be vigilant, but why should they help when their fifteen year old daughters are being rapped, grandfathers being beaten and entire villages wiped out.
“I was just following orders’ doesn’t fly. I didn’t work for Nazis after WW II and it shouldn’t be a way of dodging responsibility now. It may be difficult to find good proof of the atrocities after so long a period, but if it exists, there should be prosecutions.
22BruceCoulson
Part of the problem is the (nearly inevitable) de-humanizing of the 'enemy' in every war. Add to it the shock of dealing with people from a very different culture, who (mostly) looked different, dressed differently, and who often spoke an unintelligible (to an American soldier) language.
It would be easy to fall into the mind-set that none of the people in Vietnam (other than your fellow soldiers) were truly human, and so the rules for civilized conduct simply didn't apply.
This attitude was magnified, of course, for the managers of the conflict half a world away, who had no contact with the Vietnamese people, and could treat the entire war as an intellectual exercise.
It would be easy to fall into the mind-set that none of the people in Vietnam (other than your fellow soldiers) were truly human, and so the rules for civilized conduct simply didn't apply.
This attitude was magnified, of course, for the managers of the conflict half a world away, who had no contact with the Vietnamese people, and could treat the entire war as an intellectual exercise.
23TLCrawford
The raciest attitudes that the majority of Americans carry with the did not help in Vietnam. I confess that I am not sure if the Vietnamese people had raciest attitudes towards us when we got there or if we just taught them to hate us.
It can be different when we are in a foreign but familiar culture such as Italy in WWII.
http://www.the-lovgrens.com/Mauldin/Mauldin015
The caption read "This must be the town where Dad said all the people were so friendly"
It can be different when we are in a foreign but familiar culture such as Italy in WWII.
http://www.the-lovgrens.com/Mauldin/Mauldin015
The caption read "This must be the town where Dad said all the people were so friendly"
24LamSon
>23 TLCrawford: "we just taught them to hate us." I think in many cases that was true. I once asked a Vietnamese friend what they thought of Americans, especially the elders who lived through the war. The idea I got is that they didn't really have negative attitudes towards Americans in general, but more with the government for abandoning them. For several years my wife and I have celebrated TET with this same friend and it's like we're part of the family.
On the other hand some Vietnamese do not like the Montagnards. I was once at a training session on different cultures that might use our state parks (I worked for the park system). When someone ask about the Montagnards, the Vietnamese presenter became visibly upset and had to work hard to give a PC response which was short and terse.
>22 BruceCoulson: "Add to it the shock of dealing with people from a very different culture"
The personnel going to Vietnam a little to no training in the culture and when they arrived in country there was no acclimation period just shipped to a firebase and the war. Only REMFs had a chance to get to know the culture and it's a pity that many didn't. It's been my experience that people from SE Asia are happy to share their culture, if you are willing to learn.
On the other hand some Vietnamese do not like the Montagnards. I was once at a training session on different cultures that might use our state parks (I worked for the park system). When someone ask about the Montagnards, the Vietnamese presenter became visibly upset and had to work hard to give a PC response which was short and terse.
>22 BruceCoulson: "Add to it the shock of dealing with people from a very different culture"
The personnel going to Vietnam a little to no training in the culture and when they arrived in country there was no acclimation period just shipped to a firebase and the war. Only REMFs had a chance to get to know the culture and it's a pity that many didn't. It's been my experience that people from SE Asia are happy to share their culture, if you are willing to learn.
25BruceCoulson
"It's been my experience that people from SE Asia are happy to share their culture, if you are willing to learn."
I suspect that this is true for most people and most cultures.
I suspect that this is true for most people and most cultures.
27Urquhart
My wife and I happened by a US military war museum today and in it found a Park Ranger or interpreter who was nice enough to take us around.
At the end of the discussion of the different wars throughout history, he mentioned parenthetically that it was the consensus of the Vietnam vets that visited the museum and everyone that the Vietnam war was a civil war and that the US should never have gone into it. That in effect the loss of over 50,000 soldiers need not have happened.
Is that what the media says now........? When did it become fashionable to say the war was wrong?
Yes, Robert McNamara, in the movie, Fog of War, admitted he did not realize Vietnam was in the midst of a civil war when the US entered, but does everyone on the street agree it was a waste of men and money?
When I protested against the war back in the 60s there were a whole lot of people that thought it right.
At the end of the discussion of the different wars throughout history, he mentioned parenthetically that it was the consensus of the Vietnam vets that visited the museum and everyone that the Vietnam war was a civil war and that the US should never have gone into it. That in effect the loss of over 50,000 soldiers need not have happened.
Is that what the media says now........? When did it become fashionable to say the war was wrong?
Yes, Robert McNamara, in the movie, Fog of War, admitted he did not realize Vietnam was in the midst of a civil war when the US entered, but does everyone on the street agree it was a waste of men and money?
When I protested against the war back in the 60s there were a whole lot of people that thought it right.
28Muscogulus
>27 Urquhart:
It's still unfashionable among the small, vocal minority in the USA who want Jane Fonda tried for treason. I think this sentiment is probably strongest among some rear-echelon veterans and others who have trouble facing a world without a Communist enemy to give zest to life.
BTW I learned this week that a renamed and lightly fictionalized Jane Fonda character features in the 1985 Soviet-Vietnamese film Coordinates of Death (Координаты смерти, Tọa độ chết). I haven’t seen it, but online reviews describe an elaborate, realistic war film that portrays the Americans in Vietnam as spree killers, loosed on the beautiful land by an imperious alien government with no sense of mercy or justice. The Jane Fonda character serves to distinguish the conscience of the American people from the evil done by their government. Considerable screen time is given to scenes of mourning.
I'll pause here to acknowledge the crucial difference between a war movie and a historical monograph about a war.
It's still unfashionable among the small, vocal minority in the USA who want Jane Fonda tried for treason. I think this sentiment is probably strongest among some rear-echelon veterans and others who have trouble facing a world without a Communist enemy to give zest to life.
BTW I learned this week that a renamed and lightly fictionalized Jane Fonda character features in the 1985 Soviet-Vietnamese film Coordinates of Death (Координаты смерти, Tọa độ chết). I haven’t seen it, but online reviews describe an elaborate, realistic war film that portrays the Americans in Vietnam as spree killers, loosed on the beautiful land by an imperious alien government with no sense of mercy or justice. The Jane Fonda character serves to distinguish the conscience of the American people from the evil done by their government. Considerable screen time is given to scenes of mourning.
I'll pause here to acknowledge the crucial difference between a war movie and a historical monograph about a war.
29TLCrawford
I don't know what is more disturbing, that a major government official is ignorant of the facts about a war he decides to enter or that so few people question him on it when he makes the claim years later in an attempt to improve histories opinion of him.
The war in Vietnam could have been called a civil war but so could the war the 13 colonies had with England in the late 1700s. In WWII France lost control of Indochina to the Japaneses and when the war ended the people of Vietnam set up their own government, IIRC they modeled it after the US constitution. When France was able they attempted to reestablish their control of what they saw as their colony. As the Mao's forces in China gained the edge on Chiang Kai-shek his government sent aid to the anti colonial forces in Vietnam, this was the origin of the North Vietnamese government. France set up a puppet government in the south and we entered after France was beaten. Our goal was to stop the spread of communism or to preserve colonialism, you make the call on that.
The war in Vietnam could have been called a civil war but so could the war the 13 colonies had with England in the late 1700s. In WWII France lost control of Indochina to the Japaneses and when the war ended the people of Vietnam set up their own government, IIRC they modeled it after the US constitution. When France was able they attempted to reestablish their control of what they saw as their colony. As the Mao's forces in China gained the edge on Chiang Kai-shek his government sent aid to the anti colonial forces in Vietnam, this was the origin of the North Vietnamese government. France set up a puppet government in the south and we entered after France was beaten. Our goal was to stop the spread of communism or to preserve colonialism, you make the call on that.
31TLCrawford
Post WWII we were footing 80% of everything. Clearly that is an exaggeration but by how much?
32Arctic-Stranger
Our goal was to stop the spread of communism or to preserve colonialism, you make the call on that.
Either way it was an unwinnable war because there was no clear definition of what it meant to win the war. Stopping something is not a win. Whoever you are trying to stop can always start again.
A lesson we did not learn.
Either way it was an unwinnable war because there was no clear definition of what it meant to win the war. Stopping something is not a win. Whoever you are trying to stop can always start again.
A lesson we did not learn.
33BruceCoulson
Part of this is the distance in time; the Vietnam War was two generations ago, long enough for some of the passions it engendered to die down.
And as noted, other than killing a lot of people (a lot of vietnamese, and a number of Americans), nothing much was achieved. The country WAS united under the North Vietnamese government anyway (for good or ill) and is now a trading partner with the United States. It's harder to justify a war when you didn't win.
And as noted, other than killing a lot of people (a lot of vietnamese, and a number of Americans), nothing much was achieved. The country WAS united under the North Vietnamese government anyway (for good or ill) and is now a trading partner with the United States. It's harder to justify a war when you didn't win.
34TLCrawford
I lean toward the preservation of Western colonialism as the US's true reason for entering Vietnam. We obviously failed at that. Bu the time that we withdrew troops the tide turned from having colonial governments to having "friendly" dictators, locals, but locals who would do our will.
As far as stopping communism, that just required that we open our eyes and see that the USSR and "Communist" China were as "communist as North Korea was a "Democratic Republic". They were, and largely are still today, single party dictatorships where the nations wealth is held by party members.
More and more I find myself wondering how different it is to have two parties if both are controlled by the same small group.
As far as stopping communism, that just required that we open our eyes and see that the USSR and "Communist" China were as "communist as North Korea was a "Democratic Republic". They were, and largely are still today, single party dictatorships where the nations wealth is held by party members.
More and more I find myself wondering how different it is to have two parties if both are controlled by the same small group.
35mpstaples
Hi all. I recently completed my memoir which is a story about the impact a traumatic childhood can have on the way in which a life unfolds, called Focusing Emptiness.
A large part of my book is about my experience in the Vietnam War as a eighteen-year-old, working in the Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), disarming explosive munitions in the field. With the context of Vietnam, San Francisco in the 60's. I later go on to explore some of the history of martial arts in San Francisco and how I interviewed the first Chinese kung fu experts to leave communist China.
Great for history buffs and those looking for something with a little self-exploration.
If you want to check out my book Focusing Emptiness and give an honest review, I can send you a free copy.
https://www.amazon.com/Focusing-Emptiness-Mytho-Poetic-Journey-Child/dp/09976600...
A large part of my book is about my experience in the Vietnam War as a eighteen-year-old, working in the Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), disarming explosive munitions in the field. With the context of Vietnam, San Francisco in the 60's. I later go on to explore some of the history of martial arts in San Francisco and how I interviewed the first Chinese kung fu experts to leave communist China.
Great for history buffs and those looking for something with a little self-exploration.
If you want to check out my book Focusing Emptiness and give an honest review, I can send you a free copy.
https://www.amazon.com/Focusing-Emptiness-Mytho-Poetic-Journey-Child/dp/09976600...
36vy0123
Notes are easier to fake than actual voice recordings.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.htm...
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.htm...
38DinadansFriend
For all of us, Ken Burns and his team are about to start influencing that part of the community which is TV documentary educated. I'm looking forward to the effects on the coming generation. As a Canadian who was acquainted with veterans of the American army, some who fulfilled their terms of service, some who left early, some decorated and some simply shattered by their experience, I haven't gotten over my initial impression. The Americans were cruisin' for a bruisin' because they had no public awareness of how to wage a standard colonial War. Unaware in the main, of their own War of Independence, and its conditions they did not have the necessary level of cynicism, and did have a serious level of xenophobia already in place. Mentally, the Civil Rights struggles concurring in the USA blended into this overseas war. You cannot convert a population engaged in a war of liberation from their corrupt landlords to embrace a dream of small scale capitalism saving them from further exploitation. To some degree the American Soldier, discontented with his own conditions at home, went abroad thinking he was going to engage in a period where he was "Born to be Wild!". He was also going to be greeted by a subservient Asian population busily switching from a subsistence economy rejigged to provide Europe with raw materials to one that provided the same materials to the emerging global (American) economy. He (or she) was hoping for a welcome as delirious as the French one of 1944. No one but the American Shareholder really wanted him there, and he was in fact, "Born to be Whipped!". The long term effect of Vietnam was to show the USA that a simple dream of liberation or defence of "Good Guys" was not going to be realized anywhere, ever again!
