A Dance to the Music of Time GR 2013 - December: Hearing Secret Harmonies
Discussie75 Books Challenge for 2013
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1Deern
Welcome to our last discussion thread for our "A Dance to the Music of Time" GR. The December book has another lovely title: Hearing Secret Harmonies
Main thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/147074
Main thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/147074
3Deern
As much as I love the series, there's one thing I wont miss and that's the difficult beginnings. Again I am completely lost. How many years have we jumped this time? Is it possible that Nick is in his 60s when he's about 40 years older than this new guy Murtlock? Okay, I am on page 20, so hopefully I should get settled soon.
4Deern
This contains small spoilers for chapter 1 and 2, but more general observations.
While I was all lost through most of chapter 1, now in chapter 2 I got a full dose of nostalgia. I don’t know yet whether I love it or just like it… The timeline gaps between the first 10 books were short, so if something from an earlier book was taken up again, there was no reason to think much about it. But now in this second chapter it feels like Powell suddenly remembered that there were some open threads left and picks them all up again more than 20 years later, like those pictures of the seven deadly sins.
Then there’s the Widmerpool story… There are 10 years between books 10 and 11 during which Nick and Kenneth have not(?) met, and then there’s all that trouble of book 11. Then there’s another gap of 10 full years, and suddenly it seems Kenneth is omnipresent again. Okay, so he was in the US for many years, but now he is back and seemingly everywhere. It feels a bit too much and I would have preferred it had Powell mentioned the odd occasional meeting during the last 10 years.
There is one remark about Pamela Widmerpool that made me sad and angry: … it was thought even possible that, having heard of the hotel through Gwinnett, she had booked a room there as a suitably anonymous setting for her final act. Sympathetic comment gave Pamela credit for that.
While I haven’t finished this book yet, I can say that I love(d) the series. But I can also say I am glad Nick & Co. aren’t my friends. Sure Pamela wasn’t a nice person, but from early childhood she was only known as “being difficult and nasty”. Did anyone ever ask why she behaved like that? I am quite convinced that Powell didn’t invent this character or he would have given her some background. He probably knew a RL Pamela and just used her for his books without caring much about her motives. I guess modern psychology would assume early neglect, trauma and probably abuse. That all she gets in the end is a little sympathy for at least not having committed suicide at home is so sad and heartless, I don’t find words.
And when I am already on a rant… Yes, we all agree that Kenneth isn’t a nice man either. But in the early books he tries to become part of the crowd (his daily runs to get into the sports team, his reaction to the banana…). Not being accepted, instead being ridiculed, he understands he has to find a way of his own, without looking left or right, not relying at all on others, and that’s how he proceeds. When he tries to become Nick’s friend and introduces him to his mother, this seems a huge step for him, and his reward is, as usual, nothing. I wondered if he would have turned out differently, had our Nick really been a friend to him, someone showing interest in his doings and not just laughing behind his back and trying to hide when he turns up.
When Nick and Isobel watch that documentary on TV, their cool exchange gave me the chills. A certain amount of self-righteousness in one’s youth is normal – black, white, no grays. But Nick is now in his 60s and still believes it is classy to hide one's disdain for almost everything and everyone behind mild irony.
There’s a docu about someone you knew, made with the help of your friends, on TV, in the 60s (when not everyone had their 15 minutes on reality TV) – and you don’t discuss it at all, your comment is “Shall we stay for the news?” and then, when the Widmerpool news are over, all he delivers is “That was livelier than the St John Clarke programme”.
No, those are people I loved reading about, but I am glad I don’t need to deal with them in RL.
Kenneth has developed into a somewhat horrible man, but he’s also someone always ready to try new ways, to look at things from different angles. He has always been searching and striving for something, while Nick had the luxury to just hang around, with all the good connections already existing thanks to the family, to see what happens and gossip about those who try unsuccessfully to fit in.
While I was all lost through most of chapter 1, now in chapter 2 I got a full dose of nostalgia. I don’t know yet whether I love it or just like it… The timeline gaps between the first 10 books were short, so if something from an earlier book was taken up again, there was no reason to think much about it. But now in this second chapter it feels like Powell suddenly remembered that there were some open threads left and picks them all up again more than 20 years later, like those pictures of the seven deadly sins.
Then there’s the Widmerpool story… There are 10 years between books 10 and 11 during which Nick and Kenneth have not(?) met, and then there’s all that trouble of book 11. Then there’s another gap of 10 full years, and suddenly it seems Kenneth is omnipresent again. Okay, so he was in the US for many years, but now he is back and seemingly everywhere. It feels a bit too much and I would have preferred it had Powell mentioned the odd occasional meeting during the last 10 years.
There is one remark about Pamela Widmerpool that made me sad and angry: … it was thought even possible that, having heard of the hotel through Gwinnett, she had booked a room there as a suitably anonymous setting for her final act. Sympathetic comment gave Pamela credit for that.
While I haven’t finished this book yet, I can say that I love(d) the series. But I can also say I am glad Nick & Co. aren’t my friends. Sure Pamela wasn’t a nice person, but from early childhood she was only known as “being difficult and nasty”. Did anyone ever ask why she behaved like that? I am quite convinced that Powell didn’t invent this character or he would have given her some background. He probably knew a RL Pamela and just used her for his books without caring much about her motives. I guess modern psychology would assume early neglect, trauma and probably abuse. That all she gets in the end is a little sympathy for at least not having committed suicide at home is so sad and heartless, I don’t find words.
And when I am already on a rant… Yes, we all agree that Kenneth isn’t a nice man either. But in the early books he tries to become part of the crowd (his daily runs to get into the sports team, his reaction to the banana…). Not being accepted, instead being ridiculed, he understands he has to find a way of his own, without looking left or right, not relying at all on others, and that’s how he proceeds. When he tries to become Nick’s friend and introduces him to his mother, this seems a huge step for him, and his reward is, as usual, nothing. I wondered if he would have turned out differently, had our Nick really been a friend to him, someone showing interest in his doings and not just laughing behind his back and trying to hide when he turns up.
When Nick and Isobel watch that documentary on TV, their cool exchange gave me the chills. A certain amount of self-righteousness in one’s youth is normal – black, white, no grays. But Nick is now in his 60s and still believes it is classy to hide one's disdain for almost everything and everyone behind mild irony.
There’s a docu about someone you knew, made with the help of your friends, on TV, in the 60s (when not everyone had their 15 minutes on reality TV) – and you don’t discuss it at all, your comment is “Shall we stay for the news?” and then, when the Widmerpool news are over, all he delivers is “That was livelier than the St John Clarke programme”.
No, those are people I loved reading about, but I am glad I don’t need to deal with them in RL.
Kenneth has developed into a somewhat horrible man, but he’s also someone always ready to try new ways, to look at things from different angles. He has always been searching and striving for something, while Nick had the luxury to just hang around, with all the good connections already existing thanks to the family, to see what happens and gossip about those who try unsuccessfully to fit in.
5Deern
Determined to finish the book today (44 pages left) because today's Nicholas' name day :-)
Okay, I find this book completely confusing.
Spoilers coming:
I enjoyed chapter 3 and Widmerpool's act of disobedience seemed like something that has been brewing inside him for a long time. With all his successes he's never been able to become a welcome member of the "establishment" and now turns against it. I felt for the twins. Imagine living in a world where your parents don't even want to know you when you unexpectedly turn up at a reception. If this is the atmosphere they grew up in they just had to become rebels, although their action seemed extremely childish for someone older than 12.
But from chapter 5 on I don't know anymore what Powell is doing to Widmerpool. Is there some deeper sense or does he really want him to become such a sad and crazy person, following some obscure cult leader, just to be finally able to belong somewhere, to be welcome somewhere? If so, what a sad late life for poor W.
Chapter 6 Another mention of how nasty Pamela was already as a child when she was sick in the font on Stringham's wedding. No-one ever said about that inciodent that "the poor child was taken ill". Wondering what influence Stringham has had on her development, it seems that was the only case of real mutual affection in her life.
W.'s story becomes painful to read. I don't want to see him like this. That penitence thing is revolting.
Edit:
Finished the book last night. When I read the first page of chapter 7, I knew Powell would get back to the very first pages of book 1, and he did. He closed the circle, the work is complete.
I am still not sure what to make of that whole cult thing and of Widmerpool's fate. Did Powell hate him in the end and the whole thing is a kind of joke? It is just so sad, I would have wished for a much different development in this last book.
Okay, I find this book completely confusing.
Spoilers coming:
I enjoyed chapter 3 and Widmerpool's act of disobedience seemed like something that has been brewing inside him for a long time. With all his successes he's never been able to become a welcome member of the "establishment" and now turns against it. I felt for the twins. Imagine living in a world where your parents don't even want to know you when you unexpectedly turn up at a reception. If this is the atmosphere they grew up in they just had to become rebels, although their action seemed extremely childish for someone older than 12.
But from chapter 5 on I don't know anymore what Powell is doing to Widmerpool. Is there some deeper sense or does he really want him to become such a sad and crazy person, following some obscure cult leader, just to be finally able to belong somewhere, to be welcome somewhere? If so, what a sad late life for poor W.
Chapter 6 Another mention of how nasty Pamela was already as a child when she was sick in the font on Stringham's wedding. No-one ever said about that inciodent that "the poor child was taken ill". Wondering what influence Stringham has had on her development, it seems that was the only case of real mutual affection in her life.
W.'s story becomes painful to read. I don't want to see him like this. That penitence thing is revolting.
Edit:
Finished the book last night. When I read the first page of chapter 7, I knew Powell would get back to the very first pages of book 1, and he did. He closed the circle, the work is complete.
I am still not sure what to make of that whole cult thing and of Widmerpool's fate. Did Powell hate him in the end and the whole thing is a kind of joke? It is just so sad, I would have wished for a much different development in this last book.
6LizzieD
LOOK what I found! Models for Characters! I think that the pictures are from the series on video, which I own but haven't looked at yet. I have seen a picture of the Pamela person, and I didn't think that she was gorgeous, but I'm certainly going to look again!
7HarryMacDonald
Can someone who's read the book tell me whether the author had the good grace to acknowledge the source of the phrase "secret harmonies"?
8LizzieD
In the preceding volume a character attributes the phrase to Henry Vaughan. I was just reading online (since you asked) that this is not a correct attribution. Do you know, Harry Mac?
9brenzi
I finished the book yesterday and have to say I agree with most of the points made in #4 and 5. I was very disappointed in Widmerpools's end in particular and am wondering what the significance of all the nudity, even going back to the kitchen maid at Stonehurst. These nude runs made little sense to me. Also, the sugar dumped on Widmerpool's head was brought up soooo many times that it has to have some significance. That said I have rated the whole series 5 stars and will probably return to it in a few years time as I'm sure a lot of it went right over my head.
I just ordered the videos from my library and I can't wait to watch.
>6 LizzieD: Peggy, that website is a rabbit hole that I am sure I will return to many times.
I just ordered the videos from my library and I can't wait to watch.
>6 LizzieD: Peggy, that website is a rabbit hole that I am sure I will return to many times.
10Deern
What a great website! There's a small character table on the series' wiki page, but this one's much better. And it seems they made an effort selecting the actors for the TV series. Just put the DVD on my WL. Maybe I'll order it for that "time between the years" when I often feel a bit down. 8 hours, something to look forward to!
I checked my ratings of the individual books. Except for some weaker ones (3/ 3.5 stars) I always rated with 4/4.5. I'd rate the complete series higher, because it's such an intelligent and perfect composition. 4.5 or 5 stars? I still like Proust better - and I read that series on my own. How much greater (6 stars?) would that have been had I read it here with others!
I checked my ratings of the individual books. Except for some weaker ones (3/ 3.5 stars) I always rated with 4/4.5. I'd rate the complete series higher, because it's such an intelligent and perfect composition. 4.5 or 5 stars? I still like Proust better - and I read that series on my own. How much greater (6 stars?) would that have been had I read it here with others!
11HarryMacDonald
In rebus 7 atque 8. Thanks for the info, Lizzie. I wasn't aware of the quote from Vaughan, a wonderful poet whom I need to re-visit. I had been thinking that just possibly the phrase actually was derived from the First Act of Tosca, in Cavaradossi's first big aria "Recondita armonia". That may be far-fetched, but somehow, I am inclined to think that modern authors, whatever their inadequacies, are more likely to know a popular opera than a mostly-forgotten poet. Whaddaya think? Thanks again, -- Goddard ("Harry")
12JonnySaunders
MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD
I'd echo the sentiments above that on it's own this novel wasn't one the bests (and the introduction of an entirely new and intriguing character Murtlock was a bit jarring when I was expecting conclusion and reminiscence) but it was hard to separate it from the splendor of the combined work.
Now, I may be either completely barking up the wrong tree, or else stating the blindingly obvious but I was absolutely fascinated by Widmerpool's last words.
Given the setting of the chapter Powell was clearly emphasising the cyclical nature of the seasons/life/existence literally symbolised in Poussin's circular dance. What I read in Widmerpool's final words took me right back to what we first learned about him in the opening chapter of the whole thing. The description that came to mind was that despite lots of effort he never really excelled in any sport, not through want of trying.
To me his final words "I'm leading, I'm leading now" suggested to me that Widmerpool's entire life was epitomised by this idea that no matter how much effort he put in, and how much self belief he had, he could never quite "win the race" or be one of the front runners. He was always somehow playing catch up despite his success. In one last bitter sweet moment this childish desire to lead the race finally burst through.
Even if I was completely mis-reading this, the little epiphany made me happy anyway!
One final thought about the series as a whole. I'm STILL not sure if Gwatkin stole the butter....but I like to think he did.
I'd echo the sentiments above that on it's own this novel wasn't one the bests (and the introduction of an entirely new and intriguing character Murtlock was a bit jarring when I was expecting conclusion and reminiscence) but it was hard to separate it from the splendor of the combined work.
Now, I may be either completely barking up the wrong tree, or else stating the blindingly obvious but I was absolutely fascinated by Widmerpool's last words.
Given the setting of the chapter Powell was clearly emphasising the cyclical nature of the seasons/life/existence literally symbolised in Poussin's circular dance. What I read in Widmerpool's final words took me right back to what we first learned about him in the opening chapter of the whole thing. The description that came to mind was that despite lots of effort he never really excelled in any sport, not through want of trying.
To me his final words "I'm leading, I'm leading now" suggested to me that Widmerpool's entire life was epitomised by this idea that no matter how much effort he put in, and how much self belief he had, he could never quite "win the race" or be one of the front runners. He was always somehow playing catch up despite his success. In one last bitter sweet moment this childish desire to lead the race finally burst through.
Even if I was completely mis-reading this, the little epiphany made me happy anyway!
One final thought about the series as a whole. I'm STILL not sure if Gwatkin stole the butter....but I like to think he did.
13kaggsy
12: What a wonderful thought - I think you may have something here, and the way the action came full circle to Widmerpool running once more and the bonfire and workmen *was* rather clever.
I finally managed to finish the last book on Boxing Day morning and my review is here:
http://kaggsysbookishramblings.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/recent-reads-hearing-sec...
I definitely think this is a series I will need to re-read one day!
I finally managed to finish the last book on Boxing Day morning and my review is here:
http://kaggsysbookishramblings.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/recent-reads-hearing-sec...
I definitely think this is a series I will need to re-read one day!
14LizzieD
That's a really good review, Karen! Off the top of my head, I'm wondering whether all the nudity is not a foil for the final inpenetrability of other people. Murtlock's crew may bare it all in seeking Harmony, but they don't get it and neither do we. (?)
I have to say that I loved the series a bit less this time through than before. I think it is definitely to do with the style. However, the operative word is still love. On the other hand, I have to doubt that I'll read it again. We'll see.
I have to say that I loved the series a bit less this time through than before. I think it is definitely to do with the style. However, the operative word is still love. On the other hand, I have to doubt that I'll read it again. We'll see.
15kaggsy
14: Thanks Peggy! I did wonder if the nudity was a bit of a reaction to the buttoned up world Powell lived in, and as the decades progressed and things unravelled socially, the increasing nakedness reflected this.
I'm sure I will read the series again, because I think I would pick up more nuances etc than I did this time round, where I was often anxious to find out what happened next! But not for a little while.... :)
I'm sure I will read the series again, because I think I would pick up more nuances etc than I did this time round, where I was often anxious to find out what happened next! But not for a little while.... :)
16Deern
Great Review, Karen! I am going to miss those. Must follow the blog in 2014.
JohnnySaunders' idea makes a lot of sense. And still, while I think the book was a great conclusion of the series, I don't get over the Widmerpool of the last chapters. It's the neglect of appearance and the self-degrading by following those rituals. He sure had his personal issues with the voyeurism and "performance problems" with the first fiancée of whom I don't remember the name. (Writing from my office PC so always avoiding certain direct expressions which might be filtered somewhere).
But this here is just so... unnecessarily miserable. Not so much the running without clothes, I refer to the personal neglect and those ordered rituals. I mean - Blithel! I didn't plan to say goodbye to W. feeling sorry for him. He wasn't a character to like, but there was something admirable about the way he kept pushing Forward against all obstacles, he was always - even in the most embarrassing moments - proving an enormous self-assurance. Even when Pamela had left him for a while. I can't see him as a servile follower of Murtlock.
*sigh*
Reading this series with all of you has been a great experience and I thank you for following the GR through the year and for the many interesting discussions we had. Hope to meet you all again in many other GRs to come!!
JohnnySaunders' idea makes a lot of sense. And still, while I think the book was a great conclusion of the series, I don't get over the Widmerpool of the last chapters. It's the neglect of appearance and the self-degrading by following those rituals. He sure had his personal issues with the voyeurism and "performance problems" with the first fiancée of whom I don't remember the name. (Writing from my office PC so always avoiding certain direct expressions which might be filtered somewhere).
But this here is just so... unnecessarily miserable. Not so much the running without clothes, I refer to the personal neglect and those ordered rituals. I mean - Blithel! I didn't plan to say goodbye to W. feeling sorry for him. He wasn't a character to like, but there was something admirable about the way he kept pushing Forward against all obstacles, he was always - even in the most embarrassing moments - proving an enormous self-assurance. Even when Pamela had left him for a while. I can't see him as a servile follower of Murtlock.
*sigh*
Reading this series with all of you has been a great experience and I thank you for following the GR through the year and for the many interesting discussions we had. Hope to meet you all again in many other GRs to come!!
17kaggsy
Thanks Nathalie! Yes, I know what you mean about Widmerpool - however much we might dislike him, it's hard to deal with his disintegration and I might have preferred him to go out in a more spectacular way. Still, I'm sure Powell had his reasons!
I too will miss the group read - I've even dug out another couple of old Powell books in case I get too much withdrawal!
I too will miss the group read - I've even dug out another couple of old Powell books in case I get too much withdrawal!
