Tutored read: Phineas Finn by Anthony Trollope

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Tutored read: Phineas Finn by Anthony Trollope

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1lyzard
jul 12, 2014, 7:47 pm



Phineas Finn by Anthony Trollope (1869)

"For myself I don't think half so much of Parliament folk as some do. They're for promising everything before they's elected; but not one in twenty of 'em is as good as his word when he gets there."
---Mr Bunce, the landlord of Phineas Finn, M. P.

2lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 13, 2014, 6:07 am

Hello, all!

Although since Barchester Towers we have done the novels of Anthony Trollope as group reads, because of the parliamentary setting and its degree of assumed knowledge about the workings of 19th century British politics, it was decided to undertake Phineas Finn as a tutored read, with Heather (souloftherose) very kindly volunteering to be the tutee.

Everyone is welcome, and everyone is encouraged to ask questions. However, we do ask that you include a bolded chapter heading in your post, so that spoilers can be avoided.

So let's get started!

Background and introduction

Phineas Finn is the second novel in Trollope's "Palliser series", a set of novels in which the politics of 1860s Britain form the backdrop, although as always with Trollope they remain character-based stories.

The novel was originally serialised in St Paul's Magazine (of which Trollope was also the editor) from October 1867 to May 1869, also appearing in volume form in 1869. It follows a young man as he attempts, with few resources at his disposal, to carve a career in politics.

At the time that Trollope was writing, the Second Reform Bill was being passed. This altered the conditions under which men qualified for the franchise, meaning that the number of men permitted to vote effectively doubled. There was also some attempt to redistribute electoral boundaries and abolish "rotten" boroughs, although in the end this was a minor aspect of the Bill. However, discussion of these and related issues were a hot topic throughout the 1860s, and Phineas Finn captures the sense of upheaval that was rife at that time and the tortuous political manoeuvring necessary to effect change.

Trollope makes reference to many contemporary issues in the novel, although because he was writing at the time that things were happening, he occasionally guesses wrong. Most notably, at the outset of his story he has the Conservative government replaced by a Liberal one: in fact, the Derby-Disraeli government held on during the period in which Trollope was writing, with Disraeli briefly becoming Prime Minister for the first time in 1868 after Lord Derby stepped down due to ill health.

A word of caution: although Trollope does base his characters on real people, his novels were never straightforward in this respect, and it is dangerous to extrapolate too much from reality. As a general rule, the more he disliked a man and/or his politics, the closer to the bone the sketch will be. The two most direct characterisations are Mr Daubeny, who is Disraeli, and Mr Turnbull, who is the independent Radical politician John Bright. Otherwise we can say that his characters are "based on" real individuals but do not necessarily behave as did their models.

The other important detail to keep in mind is that, during 1868, Trollope himself unsuccessfully contested an election, in a very painful and disillusioning experience. The borough for which he stood, Beverley, had a long history of corruption and vote-buying; after this election, there was a parliamentary inquiry that finally led to the abolition of the borough. These events are reflected in the novel in the attention paid to the question of electoral redistribution and the abolition of anomalous boroughs, which was not nearly such a hot topic in reality.

Although politics is the main subject of Phineas Finn, a vital secondary theme is the position of women. In Trollope's earlier novels, he tended towards a simplistic, "marriage and motherhood" view, but throughout the Palliser novels we see a greater willingness to examine the real issues. From this point onwards, Trollope also grows increasingly interested in the dynamics of unhappy marriage.

The "woman question" was another prominent topic of the time. John Stuart Mill was extremely active and vocal for women's rights, and although in real terms very little headway was made, there was at least an increased tendency to take the matter seriously and to admit that the position of women under the law was in many respects untenable.

With regard to its place in the Trollope canon, Phineas Finn does bring back some established characters, including of course Plantagenet Palliser and Lady Glencora (there's also a brief appearance by the now Marchioness of Hartletop, the former Griselda Grantly), but on the whole this novel is about building the political world that will form the backdrop of the next four novels in the series, so a lot of new characters are introduced.

3Smiler69
jul 12, 2014, 8:38 pm

I'll be joining in, though I'll wait for Heather to get started before getting going myself.

4CDVicarage
jul 13, 2014, 5:08 am

I'm well in to the audio version - chapter 20 - and it's been straightforward enough to me so far, but the introduction above was helpful and there are one or two questions that I hope Heather will ask - or I will when she is far enough advanced.

5souloftherose
jul 13, 2014, 9:07 am

I'm here and questions coming on the first chapter! Thanks for the background post, Liz, and for tutoring again :-)

6souloftherose
jul 13, 2014, 9:23 am

Chapter 1: Phineas Finn Proposes to Stand for Loughshane

Quite a few questions - sorry Liz!

1. "Dr. Finn, of Killaloe, in county Clare"

Is there anything I should know about county Clare (other than it's in Ireland)?

2. "Indeed the bishop whom he was privileged to attend, although a Roman Catholic, always spoke of their dioceses being conterminate."

Why 'although a Roman Catholic'?

3. "And he was a man sufficiently well to do, though that boast made by his friends, that he was as warm a man as the bishop, had but little truth to support it."

What does warm mean here?

4. "had sent his son to Trinity"

Trinity College, Dublin?

5. "Our Phineas, however, did not turn Protestant up in Dublin"

Why would they have expected him to become a Protestant. Was Trinity College a Protestant university? If so, where did the Roman Catholics usually go?

6. "Dr. Finn, however, was still firm in his intention that his son should settle in Dublin, and take the Munster Circuit"

What's the Munster Circuit?

7. "Phineas belonged to an excellent club,—the Reform Club,—and went into very good society."

What's the significance of this club? Based on >2 lyzard: they were for the Second Reform Bill?

8. "a dissolution of Parliament"

Which would lead to a general election?

9. "it had just been suggested to him at the Reform Club that he should stand for the Irish borough of Loughshane."

This should have been obvious if I'd stopped to think about it but I'd never realised that before independence what is now the Republic of Ireland would have had MPs at Westminster.

10 "There were altogether no more than 307 registered electors. The inhabitants were so far removed from the world, and were so ignorant of the world's good things, that they knew nothing about bribery."

Given >2 lyzard:, is this ironic?

11. "Then "the party,"—by which Barrington Erle probably meant the great man in whose service he himself had become a politician,—required that the candidate should be a safe man, one who would support "the party,"—not a cantankerous, red-hot semi-Fenian, running about to meetings at the Rotunda, and such-like, with views of his own about tenant-right and the Irish Church."

a. 'the party' - the liberal party

b. semi-Fenian?

c. Rotunda?

d. tenant right?

e. Irish church? The Roman Catholic church?

7souloftherose
jul 13, 2014, 9:23 am

I was going to aim read two chapters a day but given the long list of questions from the first chapter I will give Liz a chance to respond before I carry on...

8lyzard
jul 13, 2014, 7:19 pm

>3 Smiler69: & >4 CDVicarage: & >5 souloftherose::

Hi. Ilana, Kerry and Heather - welcome, and thanks for joining in. Particular thanks to Heather for volunteering to be tutee!

Don't be frightened off by Chapter 1 - we know that Trollope's first chapters are always the scariest! (Although now you see why I thought a tutored read might be the way to go!)

9lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 13, 2014, 8:33 pm

Chapter 1

1. Perhaps just that it was a farming district, which is indirectly important later in the novel.

2. The 'although' refers to Dr Finn - the bishop is Anglican, but Dr Finn still attends him despite being a Catholic.

3. 'Warm' means comfortably well off, particularly in the sense of what someone has accummulated, rather than their regular income. The point is that Dr Finn is not as well off as rumour suggests.

4. Trinity College at the University of Dublin.

5. The University of Dublin was the Irish equivalent of Oxford or Cambridge. It was a Protestant institution, but because it was considered the best university, Catholics sometimes went there if their scruples allowed. Since Dr Finn has married a Protestant, obviously he isn't too worried about that sort of thing, while Phineas has been raised in a mixed family.

Phineas's religion is another thing that sets him apart from the people he is aspiring to live with over the course of the novel, though it is not in itself made much of. However, we are reminded that while Catholics were gradually having their rights restored at this time, there were still things denied to them. See, for instance, the remark about the Debating Society at Trinity - "to success in which his religion was no bar" - implying that in other areas, it was a bar. In fact, in order to attend the University of Dublin, Catholics required a letter of recommendation from an Anglican bishop - a situation which I believe persisted until quite recently.

6. In the 19th century only big cities had established, permanent courts; most other areas had a "circuit court", wherein the necessary legal parties moved from place to place dealing with cases built up over several months (often called "the assizes"). Phineas is supposed to be studying to become a barrister; his father's plan is that he will work the circuit that will keep him closest to home. (County Clare is in the province of Munster.)

7. Club membership was hugely important to a young man's position in the world; it also reflected his hobbies and politics. The Reform Club was a Liberal club - its Conservative equivalent was the Carlton. It was a political club that was comparatively easy to become a member of - so a first step. Men had to be nominated and voted into their clubs, so what clubs you belonged to reflected your social standing and who your friends were. Phineas aspires to be a member of Brooke's, which was the top-rung Liberal club.

8. Yes. General elections were expensive and politically dangerous, but sometimes (quite frequently at this time) could not be avoided.

9. Remember in Barchester Towers there was a reference to the English members breaking up alliances between Irish members by introducing religiously focused bills?

10. Deeply ironic, yes. No-one was that politically naive.

11.
(a) Yes, the Liberal party. Note though that when the aristocracy of this branch of politics is being referred to, Trollope often reverts to the historical term 'Whig'. It was said of the Whig aristocrats that although they were theoretically of the Liberal side, they clung to and exploited their privileges more doggedly that the Conservatives (or 'Tories').

(b) 'Fenian' was a blanket term for the movement that wanted Irish independence. At this time 'Fenianism' was a very dirty word in England, because there was an increasing threat of armed rebellion: in 1865 there was an attempt that was headed off when the Fenian leaders were arrested and their newspaper shut down. There was another uprising in 1867, when Trollope was writing Phineas Finn, with clashes in Ireland but also various incidents in England, including an attempt to free a leader who had been arrested in Manchester, which resulted in the death of a policeman.

(c) The Rotunda was the entrance to City Hall in Dublin. It was a frequent meeting place for the Fenian movement.

(d) You will hear a lot more about tenant rights over the course of the novel, but briefly, tenant farmers in Ireland had very few rights and no financial security - they were kept in subjection by a system under which they could effectively be turned out at any time, and in which, if they spent money to improve the land or their houses, they would be punished rather than rewarded.

(e) Catholics at the time were forced to pay tithes to the Protestant church, which was another longstanding Irish grievance.

Basically in all of this, Barrington Erle wants Phineas as someone who is Irish enough to get elected, but not so Irish he will actually fight for Irish issues.

10lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 13, 2014, 9:26 pm

Those of you who were along for Framley Parsonage may recall that one of the subplots involved the dissolution of the government (Harold Smith lost his cabinet post, having only just attained it). At that time we talked a bit about who Trollope's politicians were "supposed' to be.

We have the same sort of thing going on here, and with some of the same people. The Prime Minister, Lord de Terrier, is Lord Derby, who had three different stints as PM. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Daubeny, is Disraeli. These two did lead the Conservatives at this time, Derby in the House of Lords and Disraeli in the Commons, until Derby's health failed and Disraeli became party leader.

We did not meet Mr Mildmay then (instead the Liberal leader was Lord Brock, supposedly a sketch of Lord Palmerston). There are less definite ideas about who he is based on (if anyone), with opinions split between Palmerston (again) and Lord John Russell. Mr Gresham, who comes to prominence later, is generally taken as a sketch of William Gladstone.

11souloftherose
Bewerkt: jul 15, 2014, 3:58 am

>9 lyzard: Thanks Liz!

5. I think universities in England had only started admitting Catholics (and anyone else not Protestant) in the 1820s.

11e. I think I've associated Ireland so strongly with Catholicism that I've never stopped to think about what it was like before independence.

Home late and I have a headache which isn't happy with me staring at a computer screen so I will post questions on chapters 2 & 3 tomorrow morning.

12lyzard
jul 14, 2014, 6:19 pm

Oh, dear! I've been suffering chronic headaches myself the past few months, so I entirely sympathise! Talk to you tomorrow...

13gennyt
jul 14, 2014, 6:36 pm

I've found and starred the thread, and look forward to following along the discussion and picking up all the details I probably missed when I read this earlier this year!

14lyzard
jul 14, 2014, 7:06 pm

Welcome, Genny - great to have you along!

15Matke
jul 14, 2014, 7:13 pm

I'm glad you're here, helping us again, and glad Heather is brave enough to be the tutee and ask the good questions.

Reading this has answered a minor puzzle for me. When I read Pickwick Papers and some other Victorian works, I was puzzled about bribing the voters. The idea of the private ballot is so entrenched in my mind that it never occurred to me that these men were voting openly (so the bribers would know if they followed through). All is clear now--at least on that issue.

I'll probably finish Vol. I tomorrow, so am a bit ahead. But I need to be, as my name is now Distracted Debbie.

16lyzard
jul 14, 2014, 7:22 pm

Delighted to have you here, Debbie!

Your point about the secret ballot addresses an important aspect of the novel, so thank you for bringing that up. We will certainly talk more about that on the way through.

17souloftherose
jul 15, 2014, 5:13 am

As most people seem to be a fair way into this I may go slightly faster than 2 chapters a day (depending on the number of questions). Already this is a hard book to put down...

Chapter 2: Phineas Finn is Elected for Loughshane

12. "now they've given the deanery of Kilfenora to a man that never had a father"

Does he mean the man is illegitimate?

13. "The whole thing is gone, and for my part I wish they'd disenfranchise the borough. I wish they'd disenfranchise the whole country, and send us a military governor."

Disenfranchise meaning that the vote should be taken away? How would you disenfranchise a borough?

14. "I shall expect to see your name, very often, and I shall always look for it. 'Mr. Phineas Finn paired off with Mr. Mildmay.' What is the meaning of pairing off?"

"I'll explain it all to you when I come back, after learning my lesson."


Could you explain it to me now?

Chapter 3: Phineas Finn Takes His Seat

15. He had, however, very carefully packed up the tress, and could bring that out for proper acts of erotic worship at seasons in which his mind might be less engaged with affairs of state than it was at present.

Hmm? *wiggles eyebrows suggestively*

16. He had already known many members of Parliament to whom no outward respect or sign of honour was ever given by any one; and it seemed to him, as he thought over it, that Irish members of Parliament were generally treated with more indifference than any others.

As an interesting counterpart to Phineas Finn, I'm also reading The Gods of Gotham which is an historical crime novel set in New York in 1845 and together these books are highlighting how poorly people viewed the Irish in the mid-eighteenth century.

17. "That's gammon. When the thing is so equal, anything is fair. But you see they don't like it. Of course there are some among them as hungry as we are; and Dubby would give his toes and fingers to remain in." Dubby was the ordinary name by which, among friends and foes, Mr. Daubeny was known: Mr. Daubeny, who at that time was the leader of the Conservative party in the House of Commons. "But most of them," continued Mr. Fitzgibbon, "prefer the other game, and if you don't care about money, upon my word it's the pleasanter game of the two."

What's the other game?

18. "They say the House is a comfortable club," said the middle-aged friend, "but I confess that I shouldn't like being rung away from my dinner myself."

I think this refers to the bell that was rung when the MPs needed to vote?

Chapter 4: Lady Laura Standish

19. Her hair was in truth red,—of a deep thorough redness. Her brother's hair was the same; and so had been that of her father, before it had become sandy with age. Her sister's had been of a soft auburn hue, and hers had been said to be the prettiest head of hair in Europe at the time of her marriage. But in these days we have got to like red hair, and Lady Laura's was not supposed to stand in the way of her being considered a beauty.

:-)

18lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 15, 2014, 7:19 am

Don't hurry on my account! :D

Chapter 2

12. No, it means his father wasn't a gentleman, that he had no "proper" family background. His father was a nobody.

13. You abolished it altogether (we will see more of this later in the novel). There were a couple of main reasons why a borough was disenfranchised - either it was so underpopulated that it was ridiculous that it should have one (or more) MPs, or it was so "rotten", so corrupt, that disenfranchisement was the only way of cleaning it up. The latter is what happened to the borough that Trollope himself contested.

Redistribution and proper representation seem self-evident to us, but they were not taken as seriously as Trollope takes them, due to his own unhappy experience. Electoral boundaries had not kept pace with population shifts towards urban centres and away from the country, so agricultural districts were hugely over-represented compared to places like Manchester (a situation that favoured the Tories). This was dealt with in time, but very slowly.

14. It's an arrangement (usually only allowed in non-serious circumstances) where if a member of one party is unable to vote for a good reason, a member of the other party agrees not to vote, to "balance" the count. In this example Phineas would not be paired off with Mr Mildmay, as they belong to the same party.

Chapter 3

15. Yes, not too erotic, we hope!

(Although the true response is - don't worry, he'll have other things on his mind before long...)

16. Yes, it was very sad. Trollope himself had a lot of fondness and sympathy for the Irish, and a better understanding of the issues than many Englishmen, having lived in Ireland for ten years and started his writing career there.

17. "The other game" is being in opposition, which gives an MP lots more freedom of action. Some people, like Mr Daubeny, only want to be in power but Mr Monk thinks all the pleasure of politics comes from being able to pick and choose your battles. As Mr Monk points out here, though, you only got all the pleasures of opposition if you were independently wealthy or financially backed, and didn't have to mind your step.

The perks and pains of being in government is another main theme of the novel.

18. Yes, that's right. Some MPs spent a lot more time in the dining-room than in the House. But if a vote was on, a bell would ring to summon them to participate...so you had to time your meal-breaks carefully. :)

Chapter 4

19. :D

19lyzard
jul 15, 2014, 10:10 pm

We should also note of Phineas's election that he gets elected chiefly because he has the backing of the local aristocrat, Lord Tulla. We saw a similar situation operating in both Framley Parsonage and Can You Forgive Her?, with elections being decided according to the influence of the Duke of Omnium. Trollope here introduces a running theme, the gap between theory and practice in electoral reform, wherein Liberal (or perhaps more correctly, Whig) MPs worked for reform in the Commons while exploiting their privileges in the world at large.

20souloftherose
jul 16, 2014, 2:21 am

I think I've missed this somewhere in the last few chapters - who won the election? Did the Conservatives remain in power?

Chapter 5: Mr. and Mrs. Low

20. If he resolved that he would ask Lady Laura Standish to be his wife, when should he ask her, and in what manner might he propose to her that they should live?

Our Phineas doesn't hang around, does he? Poor Mary.

21 It was true that he could not hold even a Treasury lordship with a poor thousand a year for his salary without having to face the electors of Loughshane again before he entered upon the enjoyment of his place"

What's a Treasury lordship?

22 Then Phineas made up his mind that Mr. Kennedy was insolent with the insolence of riches, and that he would hate Mr. Kennedy.

Poor Mr Kennedy!

23 he intended to assist in turning out the existing Government and to mount up to some seat,—a humble seat at first,—on the Treasury bench, by the help of his exalted friends and by the use of his own gifts of eloquence.

What's the Treasury bench?

24 Lord Tulla was his friend, and he had those points of law in his favour which possession bestows.

Referring to the proverb, 'Possession is nine tenths of the law'?

21souloftherose
Bewerkt: jul 16, 2014, 2:22 am

I started reading Chapter 6: Lord Brentford's Dinner but ended up generally flummoxed by it so I will reread it this evening so I can post some specific questions.

22lyzard
jul 16, 2014, 4:01 am

>21 souloftherose: I would strongly recommend at this point that you do take your time, until you get your bearings. There's a lot to absorb at the outset.

23lyzard
jul 16, 2014, 4:29 am

It is unclear who, if anyone, "won". At this time (and we see this repeatedly through the novel) often neither party had a clear majority, and no-one really wanted to be in power with no power.

The Queen's Speech* had to be voted upon and passed. Ordinarily this was a formality; in this case, however, Mr Mildmay moves an amendment on it and forces a vote, which in turn forces everyone to take sides. In this way it can be determined what the numbers really are following the election, and whether the Conservatives hold power or not.

We do not immediately learn the outcome of the vote, since we then move backwards to the dinner at Lord Brentford's. So we will deal with the consequences of the division in due course (i.e. in Chapter 6!).

(*After Albert died, Victoria declined to make the speech herself, and it was read for her. However, from 1865 onwards she was persuaded to at least sit in the House while it was being read, which she had given up along with most of her other public duties. Most commentators place the opening of Phineas Finn in 1864, so perhaps that explains why Mr Mildmay feels he can do something as unusual as moving an amendment on the speech.)

Chapter 5

20. Poor Mary, indeed.

Actually, I will be very interested to hear people's opinions of Phineas's behaviour over the course of this novel.

21. A paid position in the government. We will hear more of these positions and their titles later on. Briefly, MPs were not paid a salary at this time (which was a big problem for a poor man in parliament, like Phineas), but there were paid positions in the government that were often given to up-and-comers in the party. Though of course, it required a man to stay in the party...

22. Yyyyyes and no. Perhaps it's more that he hates him for the wrong things. :)

23. The Treasury Bench is where the Government ministers, "front-benchers", sat (sit) in the House of Commons. These benches are to the right of the Speaker, while the Opposition's front-bench was (duh!) opposite, to the left. The back-benchers sat behind for each side, while the independents and the radicals sat on the other side of a walkway, "below the gangway".

24. Bingo! :)

24souloftherose
jul 16, 2014, 3:15 pm

>23 lyzard: It is unclear who, if anyone, "won". I'm really relieved I hadn't missed something really obvious. I've read the first part of Ch 6 and think it's a lot clearer thanks to your explanation but will post my questions just to be sure.

20. Actually, I will be very interested to hear people's opinions of Phineas's behaviour over the course of this novel.

So far, just a bit too impulsive but I will let you know! I found this quote from Chapter 5 quite amusing:

"I very much prefer the monkey," said Phineas to Miss Fitzgibbon.

"I thought you would," said she. "Like to like, you know. You have both of you the same aptitude for climbing. But the monkeys never fall, they tell me."


22. I await future revelations about Mr Kennedy...

25souloftherose
jul 16, 2014, 3:36 pm

Chapter 6: Lord Brentford's Dinner Part 1 (up to the dinner) Ending at But this speech was not made till after that dinner at Lord Brentford's, of which a short account must be given.

25. And he was in love with Lady Laura Standish;

Well, maybe, but only for the last few hours!

26. Phineas, before he left the house, had promised to consider that suicidal expedient of the Chiltern Hundreds.

I forgot to mention this when it turned up in Chapter 5. I've heard of the Chiltern Hundreds - it's some strange way for MPs to stop becoming MPs because they can't resign (can't remember why) so the Queen (or King) has to appoint them to be the steward of the Chiltern Hundreds which is mutually exclusive to being an MP so the MP has effectively resigned. Sort of right?

27 It is not very often that so strong a fury rages between party and party at the commencement of the session that a division is taken upon the Address.

I think I misunderstood this the first time I read it and thought this debate was taking place on the Monday or Tuesday before the dinner, but the end of this passage seems to say it's happening after the dinner.

The address is the Queen's speech you mention above (not necessarily delivered by the Queen at this point) and a division is another word for a formal vote?

28 It is customary for the leader of the opposition... through to and after that the Address is carried amidst universal serenity.

Hooray! I think I understand this bit now!

29 Mr. Mildmay, the veteran leader of the liberal side of the House, had moved an amendment to the Address, and had urged upon the House, in very strong language, the expediency of showing, at the very commencement of the session, that the country had returned to Parliament a strong majority determined not to put up with Conservative inactivity.

A strong majority is hopeful rather than factual?

Currently, the majority of MPs formally stand for a party (there are some independents but very few) so as soon as you know which MPs have been elected, you know how many seats (or votes*) each party has. Was the patry system less formal at this time so they knew which MPs were elected but weren't 100% sure which party the MPs would follow when it came to voting?

*Complicated by the fact that MPs can, generally, vote independently of their party, but if you do it too much or over certain key issues you risk getting kicked out of the party, so most of them seem to do what they're told.

30 He and his friends were very strong in sarcasm, if they failed in argument.

Not much has changed...

26lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 16, 2014, 6:40 pm

Chapter 6

25. He's rather flexible in that respect...

26. Yes, that's basically right. A "hundred" was traditionally an area that could raise one hundred men to fight for the king; the Chiltern Hundreds were three districts in Buckinghamshire.

Because you get paid to be the Crown Steward and Bailliff of the Chiltern Hundreds, by accepting that post you disqualify yourself as an MP. (They still use this process, and there's also a second area that can be used this way.)

In context all of this is a bit confusing since we also have a character called "Lord Chiltern"; presumably his family owns property in Buckinghamshire.

(There's a very funny British film from 1949 called The Chiltern Hundreds, which you should watch if you ever get the chance.)

27. Yes, it's written like "Phineas's Big Week" - first he got elected, then he got sworn in, then he heard the speech, then he went to dinner... Afterwards Trollope goes back and fills in the details.

28. Good! :)

29. In Chapter 3 Lawrence Fitzgibbon estimates the Liberals' majority as 17 - that's not a strong majority - it's not really a majority you'd like to be forming government with - but it's better than not having a majority at all.

Yes, things were a bit more flexible at the time, not least because the system was still corrupt. You didn't necessarily know where anyone did stand until a vote was forced. Hence Barrington Erle's worry over finding a "safe" man for Loughshane - i.e. someone whose vote they can be sure of.

if you do it too much or over certain key issues you risk getting kicked out of the party, so most of them seem to do what they're told.

Which is the case here also, as will become apparent over the course of the story.

30. Absolutely NOTHING has changed, as we shall see...

27souloftherose
jul 17, 2014, 3:29 pm

Chapter 6 - Part 2

31. And how many do you say it will be, Mr. Finn?"

"Seventeen, I suppose," said Phineas.

"More likely twenty-two," said Mr. Bonteen.


They're speculating on the coming division on the Address? Do they think the 17 (or 22) votes will be in their favour or against?

32. "Moody has lost his eldest son. By George! they pressed him to come up, although Frank Moody won't be buried till Friday."

"I don't believe it," said Lord Brentford.

"You ask some of the Carlton fellows, and they'll own it."

"If I'd lost every relation I had in the world," said Fitzgibbon, "I'd vote on such a question as this. Staying away won't bring poor Frank Moody back to life."


Well, it is an important vote....

33. "It would be better that they should have no veil, than squabble about the thickness of it."

Is the veil a reference to mourning? I didn't really understand this comment.

34. "He is not eloquent, nor, as far as I am aware, did he ever create anything. But he has always been a steady, honest, persevering man, and circumstances have made politics come easy to him."

What does create refer to in this context?

35. "I think he was quite right," said Barrington Erle stoutly. He spoke so stoutly that everybody at the table listened to him.
to
"Look at Loughshane."

I don't think I understood this exchange. Lord de Terrier is the current, Conservative Prime Minister. Barrington Erle is speaking of the Liberal Party. I think Miss Fitzgibbon is playing devil's advocate just because she can but otherwise I'm lost.

36. "If seats were halveable, he should share mine, for the sake of auld lang syne," said Laurence Fitzgibbon.

He being George whose seat Phineas has just gained? Why would Fitzgibbon say this?

37. "But not to-morrow night," said Barrington Erle; "the division to-morrow will be a thing not to be joked with."

Why would any division be a thing to be joked with?

38. "And shall we have no defaulters, Barrington?" asked Lady Laura.

Defaulters are people who fail to turn up for the vote?

Ending at: The same kind of conversation went on during the whole of dinner, and became, if anything, more animated when the three ladies had left the room.

28lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 17, 2014, 6:35 pm

Chapter 6 Part 2

31. In their favour. They're confident they've got a majority, which is why Mr Mildmay forces the division.

Note that Phineas here parrots what Lawrence Fitzgibbon said to him, and is immediately corrected by someone more in the inner circle. Perhaps Lawrence isn't as "in" as he (or Phineas) thinks?

32. I think perhaps what we take away here is how very seldom there was full attendance at the House.

"The Carlton fellows" - that is, members of the Carlton Club, which as we mentioned earlier was the Conservative equivalent of the Reform Club.

33. No, it's just an expression meaning something like - "Unpleasant honesty is better than pleasant hypocrisy." Fitzgibbon is suggesting that if Moody is only staying away for fear of what people will say, rather than because he really thinks it would be wrong, then he shouldn't stay away.

34. That he is not an innovator, or a leader.

35. Okay. A lot of Phineas Finn is about how government works (or doesn't), and how the parties operate. As we've said, this was a strange time in British politics, with frequent changes of government and occasional coalition governments in place because no-one had a definitive majority. Being in government without a decent majority made everything a fight, everything a drawn-out struggle, so basically each party kept handing that dirty job over to the other side. (This ties in with Mr Monk's assertion that all the fun of politics is being in the Opposition.)

You are quite right about Miss Fitzgibbon playing devil's advocate. She's surrounded by Liberal big-wigs and Liberal wannabes, who are all quite convinced that everything they do is right and everything the Conservatives do is wrong...and she keeps pointing out that the two parties are doing exactly the same thing.

Dissolving is one way of losing gracefully, if you like. You step aside voluntarily rather than go through the humiliation of losing the vote in the House over and over. Clearly not so long ago the Liberals took this step. This is what Erle means when he says, "I think he was quite right." But note that he says that "stoutly", which implies he is maintaining a position that perhaps he doesn't quite believe in. Probably he felt that you should never give up power voluntarily, but Erle is a party man through and through, so whatever the party does, he will support it and argue for it.

So the contention here (by the Liberals) is that although the Liberals' dissolution was the right thing to do, the Conservatives' dissolution is a cowardly admission of defeat.

36. Yes, the younger brother of Lord Tulla who held Loughshane for years. Note again that Fitzgibbon is immediately contradicted here about "George" not being a bad sort of fellow. In fact the two are peas in a pod. Both hold (or held) their seats due to family influence and do no work of any kind to justify their position. Despite their party differences the two probably feel much more kinship with each other than with members who take politics seriously.

37. There were plenty of frivolous divisions. But this is more reflective of the Liberals' genuine hope of getting back into government.

38. Yes. Again, Erle is suggesting that all the defaulting will be on the side of the ill-run Conservative party. This time it's Laura who challenges him. (Interesting that's it's the women, as outsiders, who seem to have a clearer view of things...)

29Smiler69
Bewerkt: jul 17, 2014, 8:38 pm

I'm not quite sure what to do. I've listened up to chapter 10 at this point. I should mention that I'm in a very poor state today, with migraine so bad that despite it being just 8:30 right now, I'm strongly considering taking myself to bed for the night. But I'm really having difficulty connecting with this book at all. I despise politics. And the last chapter had little to do with politics, being a conversation between two women, and still, I didn't connect much. Should I force myself to go on with this, or should I just give myself a break and listen to something that's easier for me to digest at this time? I really liked the first book, but all this talk of parliament and votes and so on and so forth is seriously giving me indigestion.

30lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 18, 2014, 4:16 am

Well...I can't advise whether to stay or go, but I can tell you that this book remains extensively, if not exclusively, in the realm of politics, and so do the rest of the novels in the Palliser series, to a greater or lesser extent. Trollope was writing at a time of political change in Britain and that's very much what these books are about - or at least, that's the backdrop for his characters, as the church was in the Barchester books. if I recall rightly, you started The Warden and Barchester Towers by saying you weren't interested in church matters - perhaps you'll find it works the same way with the politics? :)

I can certainly appreciate that politics and a migraine are a very bad combination, though - perhaps a break until you're feeling better, and then see if it seems any easier? But whatever you do, take care of yourself!

How are others coping with the politics? Would those further along advise Ilana to persist or put it aside?

31souloftherose
jul 19, 2014, 5:07 am

Sorry for not posting yesterday - we had an unexpected evening out.

>29 Smiler69: I think a migraine and politics is probably not a good combination. I would give yourself a break. You can come back to it when you feel better (I'm not exactly speeding through it).

Chapter 6 Part 3

39. Mr. Kennedy made but one remark, and then he observed that as far as he could see a majority of nineteen would be as serviceable as a majority of twenty.

So far Me Kennedy seems like the most sensible of the politicians in some ways.

40. "I should like to see every man with a seat polled," said Bonteen.

He would like to see every man with a seat (i.e. every MP) made to vote?

41. "Poor Sir Everard!" said Lord Brentford. "It will kill him, no doubt, but I suppose the seat is safe."

"Oh, yes; Llanwrwsth is quite safe," said Barrington, in his eagerness omitting to catch Lord Brentford's grim joke.


What was the grim joke?

Finished chapter 6!

32lyzard
jul 19, 2014, 8:07 am

Chapter 6 Part 3

39. He's making a career out of stating the obvious, if that's what you mean. :)

40. Yes, another sign that the Liberals are confident they've got a majority; they would not be proceeding to extremes otherwise.

41. Lord Brentford is suggesting that a man's life is a rather high price to pay for a vote (given that they're confident they've got a majority). Barrington Erle's tunnel-vision response suggests he's not really as confident as all that...

33Matke
jul 19, 2014, 10:27 am

I find the political element fascinating, in a horrid way. It's both a relief and a depressing development to realize how little things have changed. On the other hand, the differences in method are intriguing.

Trollope seems to write frequently about young men who fall in and out of love (or in and out of infatuation) with unseemly frequency. Perhaps that's just a symptom of being young?

Lady Laura is my favorite character so far.

34lyzard
jul 19, 2014, 6:22 pm

Hi, Gail! It's interesting hearing you comment from a US perspective. I have known a lot of American readers who find the political aspects of these novels baffling. :)

Being young or being male...or perhaps in this case, being expedient?

35souloftherose
jul 20, 2014, 10:10 am

>33 Matke: Trollope seems to write frequently about young men who fall in and out of love (or in and out of infatuation) with unseemly frequency. Perhaps that's just a symptom of being young?

Gail, I was about to ask a similar question. I think Trollope writes about flawed 'heroes' quite frequently, perhaps more than other writers of the time did?

I like Lady Laura too but I also have a fondness for Miss Fitzgibbon.

Chapter 7: Mr. and Mrs. Bunce

42. The Liberals had 333 votes to 314 for the Conservatives, and therefore counted a majority of 19.

This seems to be roughly in the middle of the majority the Liberals were predicting (17 or 22).

43. "I never saw such an unfortunate old Tantalus."

Who or what is Tantalus?

44. "He gets a good drop of real water now and again"

No idea what this is referring to.

45. "But he is weak and blind, and flies like a moth to the candle; one pities the poor moth, and would save him a stump of his wing if it be possible."

This sentence was what made me thinkg about Trollope writing flawed heroes. It seems quite an apt description fo Phineas so far.

46. Phineas, during his three years' course of reasoning on these things, had taught himself to believe that things ugly on the outside might be very beautiful within; and had therefore come to prefer crossing Poland Street and Soho Square, and so continuing his travels by the Seven Dials and Long Acre. His morning walk was of a piece with his morning studies, and he took pleasure in the gloom of both. But now the taste of his palate had been already changed by the glare of the lamps in and about palatial Westminster, and he found that St. Giles's was disagreeable. The ways about Pall Mall and across the Park to Parliament Street, or to the Treasury, were much pleasanter

I think I agree with Mr Low that politics is probably not going to be good for Phineas and we're starting to see that already.

47. the new offices in Downing Street, already half built

Was this No. 10 Downing Street being built? Or just an extension to what was already there?

48. Phineas felt nevertheless a certain amount of regret that he should have been compelled to abandon a thing which was regarded both by the porter and by Mr. Green as being so desirable.

Oh, Phineas....

49. "there's no getting at 'em to make 'em pay as there is at other folk."

Was this referring to the fact that MPs couldn't be imprisoned for debt at the time? I guess the fact that you couldn't be forced to pay anyone balances out the fact that you weren't paid?

50. That he would go to Windsor to-morrow morning was not to be doubted

To be asked by the Queen to form a new government?

51. "Why, then there will be a choice out of three. There is the Duke, who is the most incompetent man in England; there is Monk, who is the most unfit; and there is Gresham, who is the most unpopular. I can't conceive it possible to find a worse Prime Minister than either of the three;—but the country affords no other."

You've mentioned Gresham possibly being Gladstone above in post 10. Is the Duke, the Duke of Omnium?#

52. "All of them,—one after the other, so as to make the embarrassment the greater."

What embarrassment? Would they or the Queen refuse?

36lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 20, 2014, 6:34 pm

Trollope certainly writes about flawed young men; I don't think he ever writes about "heroes". And naturally at the same time his women are given very little behavioural leeway, though at least from this point onwards he seems to understand, and concede, the extent of the unfairness.

Chapter 7

42. Which indicates that they do know their business and it's not all party blindness.

43. & 44. Tantalus was a mythological figure condemned to perpetual punishment in the Underworld (as Daubeny is being punished by ending up Opposition leader in the "Underworld" of the Commons). Tantalus was chained up with fruit and fresh water always just out of his reach, as real power is just out of Daubeny's reach and now moving further away. But the "good drop of real water" remark suggests that the Liberals know this won't always be the case.

45. It takes for granted that we pity the moth; I'm not sure I do. :)

46. It isn't politics per se, it's the crowd he's running with. Politics is dangerous because of the specific combination of a "higher" group of people with no prospect of an income; it was almost impossible to avoid living above your means. Many young men wrecked themselves in just this way.

47. Yes, the new government buildings and the new law courts nearby were under construction through the 1860s; they were not actually finished until 1868 (which is another thing Trollope guesses wrong, he has Phineas working there). The buildings there had been government property since the early 18th century but it was not then a nice neighbourhood and many PMs preferred their own houses until a thorough renovation and restructuring was carried out.

47. We can't afford to ignore the porter's opinion, now, can we??

48. MPs could not be arrested for debt as long as the House was sitting, which only covered 6-8 months of the year. The rest of the time they were vulnerable like any other young man. But yes, it was one of the perks, if you were that kind of man.

50. Yes.

51. No, the Duke of St Bungay, one of the leading Whig aristocrats, who we met in Can You Forgive Her? - it was he who brought the offer of Chancellor of the Exchequer to Plantagenet Palliser, just at the moment that Planty had made up his mind to step down and take Glencora away.

52. Well, as it says, Lawrence is "romancing" - suggesting that while pleading his own unfitness, Mr Mildmay will make it clear the alternatives are even more unfit, so as to induce the Queen to beg him to accept. He is being very unfair to Mr Mildmay.

37souloftherose
jul 21, 2014, 2:34 am

>36 lyzard: Thanks Liz. I'll post questions on Ch8 & Ch 9 this evening.

38souloftherose
jul 21, 2014, 2:42 pm

Chapter 8: The News about Mr. Mildmay and Sir Everard

53. "Not exactly," said Lady Laura. "Should there be any difficulty about Mr. Mildmay, he might, at the Queen's request, make another attempt."

If Mr Mildmay can't form a government?

54. "Because he is one of my Dr. Fells."

This Dr Fell?

55. "I shall be very happy if you'll dine with me to-morrow at Moroni's"

Presumably Moroni's is a very exclusive restaurant?

56. "I hope there will be no crowner's quest"

From what follows I think they mean coroner's inquest?

39souloftherose
jul 21, 2014, 2:53 pm

Chapter 9: The New Government

57. that his party would have done everything that the country could require of any party, had the House allowed it to remain on the Treasury benches for a month or two

Nothing changes!

58. ll this, I say, was so generally felt by gentlemen on both sides of the House to be "leather and prunella"
Leather and prunella?

59. We who are conversant with our own methods of politics, see nothing odd in this, because we are used to it; but surely in the eyes of strangers our practice must be very singular.

This very same thought had come into my mind as I was reading and I was wondering what non-British readers were making of the British political system?

60. It is not so in the United States.

I think Trollope might be trying to say that the British way is better but I'm not sure I can really admire a system that requires its members to pretend they hate each other and insult each other in public but be good friends in private.

61. Sir Everard Powell was no more dead than was Mr. Daubeny himself.

Well, I'm pleased even if the Liberals aren't!

62. He and the Duke of St. Bungay, and Mr. Plantagenet Palliser, had been in conference so often

It's nice to see a friendly face :-)

63. The political portion of London was in a ferment for the next five days. and onwards.

We had a similar situation after the last election (2010) where no party had a majority and these paragraphs reminded me of all the gossip and speculation around who would form the next government.

64. sitting in Parliament for that most Radical of all constituencies, the Pottery Hamlets

Is this the same place as Tower Hamlets?

65. It was well known to many at the clubs that the Queen had on that morning telegraphed to Germany for advice.

Why to Germany? Was this to do with the now-deceased Prince Albert?

66. "Great Akinetoses! You know Orion," said Phineas.

Eh? Leading up to this exclamation, what was Mr Kennedy offered? A paid (Treasury) position?

40Surlam
jul 21, 2014, 3:10 pm

Deze gebruiker is verwijderd als spam.

41lyzard
jul 21, 2014, 6:08 pm

Chapter 8

53. Can't or doesn't want to with such a slender majority, yes. Laura is pointing out that Lord DE Terrier has only offered his resignation; it hasn't been accepted yet, so he (and the Conservatives) are not out of the picture.

54. Yes - "the reason why I cannot tell". Although in this case I suspect Phineas could tell if he wanted to. :)

55. Yes, it catered to the upper classes only (which at this time also meant men only).

56. Yes, that was a commonly used expression.

Chapter 9

57. Get used to it! :D

58. It's an expression used in an essay by Alexander Pope, talking about "what makes the man". Pope uses a cobbler (a leather-worker) and a minister (whose gown was made of a material called prunella) as examples of different types of men. His conclusion was that character was all that mattered; the rest ("leather and prunella") was superficial and unimportant.

59. Which is why I thought a tutored read might be the way to go. :)

60. We've seen already that much of what goes on in the House of Commons is, if not play-acting, then at least people operating by the accepted rules of the game, while actual "government" went on mostly behind the scenes. That was what Trollope was used to. When he visited Washington he was startled and dismayed to realise that the two sides there genuinely hated each other. We will see over the course of these novels that there were times when the Liberals and Conservatives could work together to get things done (sometimes by means of a coalition government), which was something Trollope felt could not happen under the American system, where such cooperation would be out of the question. (Speaking of things that don't change...)

61. With the size of their majority, they can't afford it! :)

62. Yes, he and Glencora will make themselves felt along the way.

63. And it happened repeatedly across the years in which Trollope was writing, with neither side ever having a really decisive majority and everything being a hard battle.

64. Yes and no. That probably is what he had in mind, but it seems that he didn't want to be too specific with his allusions because he later places Mr Monk's constituency in a different geographical region.

65. Albert angered a lot of people by constantly consulting with his German connections rather than relying on the English support provided for him; the suggestion seems to be that after his death, Victoria did the same thing. (This is at the point when she was being heavily criticised for relinquishing her duties in pursuit of her mourning.)

66. It doesn't make explicit what position Mr Kennedy was offered, just that it was not a Cabinet post. It would have been a paid government position, but Mr Kennedy is so wealthy that the money is not a consideration (which doesn't endear him to Phineas).

Phineas is making odious comparisons here. There was a poem by R. H. Horne called Orion, which contrasted the energetic and spirited Orion with the apathetic Akinotoses. Overtly Phineas is suggesting that Mr Kennedy has refused office because he is apathetic, covertly he is comparing himself to Mr Kennedy (casting himself as Orion, of course).

42souloftherose
jul 22, 2014, 8:43 am

Thanks Liz :-)

A general question: would most of Trollope's readers have picked up on his political references and understood how the political system worked? As I'm reading this I'm discovering that there are many things about our current political system that I hadn't known or understood and I wouldn't have said I was particularly unaware of our current political system.

A brief break from the politics in Chapters 10 and 11

Chapter 10: Violet Effingham

Violet Effingham seems like an unfortunate name to me...

67. That women should even wish to have votes at parliamentary elections was to her abominable, and the cause of the Rights of Women generally was odious to her; but, nevertheless, for herself, she delighted in hoping that she too might be useful

I do find it hard to understand why women were opposed to more rights for women, especially when they were otherwise quite intelligent and sensible women. I know this is a male author writing a female character but there do genuinely seem to have been a lot of women who held this view.

68. she had received considerable increase to such hopes when her father accepted the Privy Seal.

What was the Privy Seal?

69. "It is strange what a propensity I feel for the wrong side of the post."

This seems to mean not behaving properly?

Chapter 11: Lord Chiltern

70. When the General's only son, then a youth of seventeen, was killed in one of our grand New Zealand wars

What were the New Zealand wars?

43lyzard
jul 22, 2014, 7:10 pm

Yes, I think so - there was so much political upheaval and argument over political reform across the 19th century that the subject was very much in the public consciousness. Possibly people didn't necessarily understand the finer details of parliamentary process, but they understood how the system worked (or didn't).

Chapter 10

And Violet is in some ways an unfortunate girl.

67. Yes, that's hard to grasp. Perhaps easier to understand amongst women who have taken all sorts of other privileges for granted all their lives? And as you say, this is Trollope writing for Laura...and he makes no attempt to explain why she feels like that. On the other hand, he puts a few radical things into Violet's mouth on the way through...

68. The Privy Seal itself was the personal seal used by the monarch when signing official documents. The Lord Privy Seal was originally the person with responsibility for looking after the seal. Over time it became a sinecure post with no real responsibility, although the person holding it received a salary. Today the function is usually added onto the duties of someone in the Cabinet.

69. Or a desire to break rules, whether or not she actually does so.

Violet is an attempt by Trollope to put himself into the mind of a frustrated and unhappy young woman. Up until now as we've seen he tended to shy away from dealing seriously with female grievances (or from admitting they had any validity) but in Violet he considers the position of a young woman being hunted for her money (a recurrent theme in this novel, from one perspective or the other) and who is deeply dissatisfiedwith her position in the world.

Chapter 11

70. The ongoing conflict between the Maoris and British settlers in New Zealand. Please note that "grand" is used here with heavy sarcasm - Trollope was disgusted with much of what went on.

44souloftherose
jul 23, 2014, 3:11 pm

Chapter 12: Autumnal Prospects

71. Their sincerity was tested after dinner, when Fitzgibbon, as they two were seated on a sofa in the corner of the smoking-room, asked Phineas to put his name to the back of a bill for two hundred and fifty pounds at six months' date.

Nooooooo! We know from Framley Parsonage that this is not likely to end well.

I think the significance of this is that the Parliamentary session is ending and (from Q49 above) MPs could not be arrested for debt as long as the House was sitting. So Laurence knows he will be in financial trouble shortly and the bill from Phineas will cover him until the next session starts? But if Laurence can't repay the bill then Phineas will be on the line for the money and could be in trouble at the end of the following session?

Chapter 13: Saulsby Wood

72. "Don't tell me; where is it to come from? He ain't no richer because he's in Parliament. There ain't no wages. M.P. and M.T.,"—whereby Mr. Bunce, I fear, meant empty,—"are pretty much alike when a man hasn't a fortune at his back."

Does M.T. stand for anything or is this just a pun on empty?

73. "Given up his rooms, has he,—till February?"

You did mention this before but I hadn't quite clocked that Parliament was only in session for 6-8 months meaning the MPs had 4-6 months off every year.

74. "Indeed, yes;—or you will be known to all posterity as the fainéant government."

Google tells me fainéant means idle. This is beacuse the new Government haven't done anything (according to Lady Glencora)?

75. Phineas had no idea how deep an injury he might be doing his friend by this description

Still, for Violet's sake I'm glad.

45lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 23, 2014, 6:59 pm

Chapter 12

71. And I think you're quite right.

Yes and yes.

Whatever we think of Trollope's young men for falling into this particular trap, we should note that he got into serious money difficulties as a young man (on his own account, though, not someone else's) - and in fact, the section of Phineas Finn dealing with Phineas's troubles in this area are almost straight autobiography, right up to the bill-collector's turn-of-phrase.

Chapter 13

72. There were a few ministerial things that were abbreviated "M. T." but I'm not sure if Trollope / Mr Bunce meant anything specific or if he was just rhyming.

73. Yes, usually Parliament only sat between January and July, although in special circumstances it could be recalled during the Autumn.

74. Yes---the suggestion seems to be that this government seems to be operating on the principle of "masterly inactivity". :)

    "Let me tell you, Lady Glencora, that a fainéant government is not the worst government that England can have. It has been the great fault of our politicians that they have all wanted to do something."
    "Mr. Mildmay is at any rate innocent of that charge," said Lady Glencora.


75. Poor Violet.

46souloftherose
jul 24, 2014, 4:14 pm

Chapter 14: Loughlinter

76. And yet his father had walked into Glasgow as a little boy,—no doubt with the normal half-crown in his breeches pocket.

I was going to ask if this meant Mr Kennedy was new money but the rest of the chapter made it clear that he was.

77. "When it is false I do. The difficulty is to know when it is false and when it is true. Tom Moore was always false."

"Not so false as Byron," said Phineas with energy.


I know who Byron is but who was Tom Moore?

78. "It always seems to me," said Lady Laura, "that nothing is to be gained in politics by sitting at the feet of the little Gamaliels."

"But the great Gamaliels will not have a novice on their footstools."


Who was Gamaliel? I think the name is Biblical but I don't remember the context.

79. "I never knew a Mentor," said Phineas, "so apt as you are to fill his Telemachus with pride."

Telemachus?

80. "Making men and women all equal," said Lady Glencora. "That I take to be the gist of our political theory."

"Lady Glencora, I must cry off," said Mr. Monk.

"Yes;—no doubt. If I were in the Cabinet myself I should not admit so much. There are reticences,—of course. And there is an official discretion."

"But you don't mean to say, Lady Glencora, that you would really advocate equality?" said Mrs. Bonteen.

"I do mean to say so, Mrs. Bonteen. And I mean to go further, and to tell you that you are no Liberal at heart unless you do so likewise; unless that is the basis of your political aspirations."


Woo hoo! Go Lady Glencora!

81. Mr. Kennedy walked off with the French Republican on his arm

French Republican because she was being revolutionary?

82. had been told that gentleman's opinion on the trial of Mr. Jefferson Davis

Who was Mr. Jefferson Davis?

Chapter 15: Donald Bean's Pony

No questions but poor Phineas (and possibly poor Lady Laura although she seemed pretty phlegmatic). I also felt like I wanted to know more about Donald Bean....

47CDVicarage
jul 24, 2014, 4:51 pm

>46 souloftherose: Re Chapter 15: In my audio version his name sounded like Donalbain - as in Shakespeare's Macbeth - so I had been expecting something completely different - a historical/mythological reference rather than a real person and a real pony!

48lyzard
Bewerkt: jul 24, 2014, 6:45 pm

Chapter 14

76. Yes, it's interesting that this point is not more of an issue for his colleagues, although perhaps the sheer amount of money offsets any unpleasant trade associations.

77. Tom Moore was one of the lesser known Romantic poets, a friend and contemporary of Byron's---although the significance of this particular disagreement is probably that he was Irish. Laura does not necessarily mean that, being Irish, Moore was "more false" (particularly in romantic matters?), but that seems to be how the sensitive Phineas takes her remark.

78. & 79. Gamaliel was the tutor of St Paul. A "Gamaliel" is therefore a great man at whose feet a pupil sits and studies; Trollope uses this expression quite frequently. Also we have here a reference to Telemachus, who was the son of Odysseus and Penelope. Mentor (who was actually called "Mentor") was a friend of Odysseus and given charge of Telemachus when he was still a child, to raise and teach him. This is the origin of the word "mentor".

Here Phineas shifts the conversation from the professional (Laura is suggesting who he ought to be studying politics with, by finding a "Gamaliel") to the personal, by casting himself as Telemachus and her as his Mentor.

80. :D

81. Yes, both in reference to the first French Revolution and perhaps more pointedly because the Second French Republic had been established following the Revolution of 1848, which saw the final abolition of monarchy in France.

82. Jefferson Davis was the President of the Confederacy. After the Civil War he was arrested, and it was assumed for some time that he would be tried for treason, but this never actually happened. This is another of the topical references by which you can date the internal action - we are now at August 1865.

Chapter 15

As I always say at these moments, wait and see... :)

49lyzard
jul 24, 2014, 6:45 pm

>47 CDVicarage: Thanks for joining in, Kerry! Who's reading your audiobook?

50CDVicarage
jul 25, 2014, 3:21 am

>49 lyzard: It's Timothy West - he read all the Barsetshire books too - but he's not really reading he's chatting to me!

51lyzard
jul 25, 2014, 4:54 am

Ah! I know our Trollope listeners are about evenly split between Timothy West and Simon Vance, so I wondered. :)

52souloftherose
jul 26, 2014, 5:13 am

>47 CDVicarage: :-) It took me a while to realise Loughlinter was in Scotland for some reason.

Chapter 16: Phineas Finn Returns to Killaloe

83. "If you knew, Mary, how often I think about you."

...you would be bitterly disappointed. Poor Mary.

Chapter 17: Phineas Finn Returns to London

84. "And I suppose we are not to touch the question of ballot."

The 'ballot' being the question of whether people should be able to vote privately (i.e. in secret). Why were people so against the idea? Was it seen as ungentlmanly or dishonest?

85. Others said that Mr. Turnbull was a demagogue

What's a demagogue?

86. "Here is a Darby and Joan meeting, is it not?"

Who were Darby and Joan?

87. "The dear old Pope was so civil to us. I came to think it quite a pity that he should be in trouble."

How was the Pope in trouble?

Chapter 18: Mr Turnbull

88. There was not a sore spot about him, and probably his first thoughts on waking every morning told him that he, at least, was totus teres atque rotundus.

What does totus teres atque rotundus mean? I think it's Latin but I don't know any.

53lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 4, 2014, 7:35 pm

Because he spells it "Lough" not "Loch"?

Chapter 16

83. Phineas was a traitor, of course, but he was forced to be a traitor by the simple fact that Lady Laura Standish was in London, and Mary Flood jones in Killaloe.

Poor baby!

Chapter 17

84. Yes, "Ballot" in this context means secret ballot.

Trollope himself was very much against secret voting, as you can tell from the way the issue is handled in the text.

The secret ballot and the extension of the franchise to more men on lower incomes were very tightly entwined. The theory was that a man (always a man, of course, at this time) ought to have the courage of his convictions and be willing to vote openly, and that if he wasn't willing to declare himself to the whole world, he didn't deserve to have the vote.

However, in reality the old corrupt system wherein the local aristocrat could effectively control the votes of all his tenants was still in existence in spite of reform. (We have seen this previously with respect to the Duke of Omnium, and in this novel with Lord Tulla; we will see it again shortly.) The fact was that as long as the local landowner was the financial heart of the district, he could force people to do whatever he wanted. For example, if a shop-owner did not vote as he wanted, he could take all of his estate's business away and effectively starve him out; or if a tenant did not, he could refuse to renew his lease. It was because of abuses like this that the reformers were pushing for a secret ballot, which became law in the early 1870s.

85. A political leader who relies on fear-mongering and prejudice, or who uses emotional rather than factual arguments. (Not that we know anyone like that today, right??)

86. A proverbial married couple who were content with one another's company and a quiet domestic life. The names originated from a poem from the early 18th century, and then were adopted in other contexts and became a common expression.

87. Early in 1866, the pope (Pius IX) issued an Encyclical in which various aspects of liberalism were criticised. The English papers latched onto this and held it up as evidence of "papal aggression".

Chapter 18

88. That is a quotation from the Satires of Horace - "in himself entirely smooth and round" - meaning that he was self-sufficient, or content with himself the way he was. Trollope uses it to suggest Mr Turnbull's egotism.

As I mentioned up above, Mr Turnbull is a sketch of the radical politician John Bright. Trollope violently disapproved of Bright's politics and this shows in the way he handles Mr Turnbull.

(Note that most of Turnbull's terrifyingly "radical" beliefs consist of stuff we pretty much take for granted now!)

54souloftherose
jul 27, 2014, 4:33 pm

Chapter 19: Lord Chiltern Rides His Horse Bonebreaker

89. It was known that whatever might be the details of Mr. Mildmay's bill, the ballot would not form a part of it; and as there was a strong party in the House of Commons, and a very numerous party out of it, who were desirous that voting by ballot should be made a part of the electoral law, it was decided that an independent motion should be brought on in anticipation of Mr. Mildmay's bill. The arrangement was probably one of Mr. Mildmay's own making; so that he might be hampered by no opposition on that subject by his own followers if,—as he did not doubt,—the motion should be lost.

So, although Mr Mildmay doesn't want a vote on the ballot particularly, he knows there will be a lot of people calling for one, and puts a bill through to that effect knowing it won't get passed to get the issue out of the way before his real bill so there are no distractions? I'm pretty sure this still happens too.

90. "I love you so well that I do believe that if you took me I should return to the old ways, and become as other men are, and be in time as respectable, as stupid,—and perhaps as ill-natured as old Lady Baldock herself."

Grr. If you love her that well why not return to your old ways before asking her to marry you.

Chapter 20: The Debate on the Ballot

91. Not a question but I felt for Phineas in this chapter. I hate public speaking.

92. Do you remember the story of Conachar in the 'Fair Maid of Perth;'—how his heart refused to give him blood enough to fight?

Nope. Can you enlighten me :-)

93. "Are we going to have a new iron fleet built? That's the question."

Ships of some kind?

Chapter 21: "Do be punctual"

94. He was at this time on a Committee of the House with reference to the use of potted peas in the army and navy

Please tell me this was a real committee! Are potted peas tinned peas? Did they have tins then?

55lyzard
jul 27, 2014, 7:59 pm

Chapter 19

89. Yes, at this stage it is a case of the voters wanting one thing but parliament something else. Mr Mildmay does this to separate the issue of the ballot from the reforms he wants to get through, because he knows that it's not going to go away, and otherwise they will lose on all points. (And yes, this is still a commonly used tactic.)

90. Don't be silly - you know perfectly well that EVERYTHING is the woman's fault!! I mean, you can't seriously expect a man to take responsibility for his own actions, now, can you??

Chapter 20

91. Yes, Trollope captures that horrible sick panicky feeling very well.

92. That is yet another Walter Scott reference from Trollope. The Fair Maid Of Perth is an historical romance set around 1400, against the Battle of the North Inch. Conachar is one of the three men fighting over the hand of Catherine the Fair Maid. In yet another instance of IT'S ALL THE WOMAN'S FAULT, Conachar begs Catherine to marry him on the grounds that otherwise he won't have courage enough for the battle.

93. Yes, at this point there was a major overhaul of the navy underway, with naval command fighting for upgraded ships and other new technology (or rather, the money to pay for it).

Chapter 21

94. I don't know that there was an actual committee looking into potted peas, but this is a perfect example of the kind of low-level committee work that many young parliamentarians got their start with. Showing yourself good at this kind of work would get you more of it, and hence an income of sorts; it was one of the other ways an MP could earn some money without working outside of the political arena.

Potted peas are what we had before tinned peas - preserved peas in jars.

56Cobscook
jul 27, 2014, 8:33 pm

Just checking in to say I am reading, and that I am enjoying the questions and answers here. So far Violet is my favorite character!

57lyzard
jul 27, 2014, 8:53 pm

Welcome, Heidi! Please do add any questions of your own.

58souloftherose
jul 29, 2014, 4:49 am

>53 lyzard: Because he spells it "Lough" not "Loch"?

Sorry, Liz, I completely missed your question. I think partly because of the spelling and partly because I've been so focused on the politics that I haven't been thinking about where evernts are taking place.

>56 Cobscook: Welcome Heidi! As Liz said, please do chime in with any questions.

No questions on Chapters 22 to Chapter 24!

Chapter 25: Mr. Turnbull's Carriage Stops the Way

95. on Wednesday there was to be a procession with a petition which Mr. Turnbull was to receive from the hands of the people on Primrose Hill.

Has the independent motion mentioned in Ch 19 already happened? How does the petition related to this? Should I know where Primrose Hill is?

96. The nature of a Whig Prime Minister's speech on such an occasion will be understood by most of my readers without further indication.

Not this one! What's Trollope trying to say?

97. And even as yet it was not known whether Mr. Turnbull and his followers would vote against the second reading, or whether they would take what was given, and declare their intention of obtaining the remainder on a separate motion.

Meaning Mr Turnbull and followers might agree to Mr Mildmay's bill and then try and put through one of their own?

Chapter 26: "The First Speech"

98. Mr. Western, the member for East Barsetshire, one of the gallant few who dared to vote against Sir Robert Peel's bill for repealing the Corn Laws in 1846.

I think we covered the Corn Laws in an earlier book (one of the Barsetshire novels?) but could you remind me please?

99. The description of Phineas' first attempt to speak in the House had me squirming again. I've decided I quite like Mr Monk.

59lyzard
jul 29, 2014, 6:41 am

No questions on Chapters 22 to Chapter 24!

Good lord!!

Chapter 25

95. No, this is in response to the omission of the ballot from the Reform Bill put forward by Mr Mildmay.

Primrose Hill is near Regent's Park in London.

This section of the novel seems to find Trollope conscious that he is being unjust. His sketch of John Bright (in Mr Turnbull) is generally considered unfair, and we possibly see a kind of admission of this in the fact that the gathering drawn by Mr Turnbull is actually less violent than the real one---there were riots near Hyde Park in 1866 provoked by the failure of the Reform Bill to extend the franchise as much as anticipated. Here we get an unruly crowd but no actual lawlessness.

96. "No, we're not introducing a bill for the ballot, and we're not going go be pressured by the mob either."

I may be doing Mr Mildmay an injustice there, but that would be the gist of it. :)

97. Yes, they have to decide whether to take what's on offer and resume the fight later, or try to oppose the bill altogether and possibly force Mr Mildmay to resign as a consequence.

Chapter 26

98. Ah, our old friend the Corn Laws!

The Corn Laws were designed to prevent free trade - there was a high tariff on imported grain, which was supposed to support local agriculture, but the tariff stayed in place through periods of agricultural depression and failure, and prevented importation of grain even in the face of famine.

There was a straight political split on this issue: the Conservatives, who were tied to the aristocracy / landed gentry and the agricultural interest, supported the Corn Laws; while the Liberals, who were associated with the urban / manufacturing interest, were in favour of free trade.

There were attempts made to get the Corn Laws repealed from the 1830s onwards, but they were unsuccessful until 1845 when there was a general crop failure, and the Great Famine in Ireland. At that time, the Conservative Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, recalled Parliament, and his government repealed the Corn Laws so as to allow importation. This was perceived as a profound and fundamental betrayal of the Conservative position, and it effectively brought down the government; the Liberals were basically in power for the next twenty years.

However, hard-line Conservatives remained opposed to free trade despite the alteration in their party's policy, and for many people, the Corn Laws became shorthand for political betrayal.

(Note that Trollope seems to think that backflipping to a position of right is more dishonest than sticking to a position of wrong if that happens to be your policy!)

99. Yes, it makes you squirm, doesn't it??

Much of Phineas Finn is concerned with the question of whether a man can, or should, remain independent in politics, and Mr Monk is the face of one line of argument.

60souloftherose
jul 31, 2014, 2:44 am

Sorry, bad day at work yesterday followed by a headache when I got home meant I wasn't feeling up to 19th century politics (even if it is Trollope). Will try and read some more tonight.

61lyzard
jul 31, 2014, 7:42 am

No problem at all - I'm still getting my headaches on and off too, so I entirely sympathise. Take care!

62souloftherose
jul 31, 2014, 3:26 pm

Headache mostly gone but very tired so just one chapter tonight:

Chapter 27: Phineas Discussed

I hate the thought of people talking about me when I'm not there....

100. "Mildmay will lose his bill," said the Earl, sorrowfully. "There does not seem to be a doubt about that."

Really? I hadn't picked up that things were that dire....

101. "I don't suppose that Mr. Turnbull can form a Ministry."

I didn't think that Mr Turnbull had enough support - is this a serious possibility? Is this because of the strength of public opinion?

102. "I told her that it was not quite settled; but that as I had only spoken to him once during the last two years, and then for not more than half a minute, and as I wasn't sure whether I knew him by sight, and as I had reason to suppose he didn't know my name, there might, perhaps, be a delay of a week or two before the thing came off. Then she flounced out of the room."

I like Violet.

63lyzard
jul 31, 2014, 6:34 pm

Chapter 27

100. He has Turnbull and his followers against it because they believe in the ballot, they have Daubeny and his followers against it because they want to spite the Liberals, and apparently a few of the Liberals intend to cross the floor. With a majority as small as the one that put the Liberals into power, they don't have a lot of room to manoeuvre.

101. Mr Turnbull himself might be a popular choice, but as an independent he has much less support in parliament, and it is highly unlikely he would be offered the chance (or accept it if it were offered, given his views on Mr Monk joining the Cabinet). We can imagine Mr Mildmay and Lord De Terrier united on this point, and advising the Queen to the contrary.

102. I think up to this point in Trollope's writing we have been given women from men's point of view, but from here he shows a greater willingness to give us women from women's point of view and to engage with their difficulties (if not thoroughly sympathise with their position). He was not particularly kind to Alice Vavasor in this respect in Can You Forgive Her? - he presented her case while making it clear he disapproved - but he is more generous in his handling of Violet and Laura.

64souloftherose
Bewerkt: aug 1, 2014, 4:54 pm

>63 lyzard: 100 makes so much sense now you have explained it - so much so, that it seems rather obvious and I don't know why I didn't understand that. Thank you!

Chapter 28: The Second Reading Is Carried

103. A great effort was made to close the debate on the Friday but it failed, and the full tide of speech was carried on till the following Monday.

A polite way of saying they couldn't get them to shut up!

104. and the Speaker gave his casting vote in favour of the Government.

I hadn't realised the Speaker ever got to vote but my husband says the Speaker only votes if he/she would have the deciding vote.

105. The bill was read a second time, and was lost, as a matter of course, in reference to any subsequent action.

I'm getting a bit confused as to which stage this bill is at. Is Trollope summarising the preceding paragraph in this sentence (which is how I read it) rather than saying the bill was read again after the vote? And although the bill has technically passed the Government will not proceed with it because they only won due to the Speaker's vote?

65souloftherose
aug 1, 2014, 4:56 pm

Another question:

106. Had the political events Trollope is describing happened when he wrote the book? You mention the Second Reform Bill in >2 lyzard: but was Trollope writing ahead of the Bill's progress?

66lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 2, 2014, 5:57 pm

(Sorry! Yesterday went a bit pear-shaped...)

Chapter 28

103. Well, we can be polite and say it was a subject that many people felt passionate about. :)

104. Yes, and as is made clear in the text, though technically a bill can be passed by this vote, in practice it often functions like a loss since there is still no majority.

105. The first reading of the bill is when the debate happens; the second reading of the bill is when the vote happens. It is "lost, as a matter of course, in reference to any subsequent action" because having been technically passed, the bill now goes to a committee to work through its detailed content. The vote is on the general tendency of the bill, the committee works through all of its individual clauses. Given the divided reaction to the bill, everyone recognises that the committee process is going to be long and slow, and that the amended bill that emerges at the end is unlikely to bear much resemblance to the one that went in.

106. Trollope wrote Phineas Finn from late 1867 through into 1869; the action seems to be set from 1864 - 1869. The Second Reform Bill was introduced during 1867 and passed in 1868, so it would have been in debate while Trollope was writing the early phases of the novel (though he probably planned sections of it earlier), and passed while he was in the middle of it.

The Liberals under Earl Russell (who we met in Barchester Towers as Lord John Russell, in the context of church reform, and who became Prime Minister after the fall of the Peel government following the repeal of the Corn Laws) introduced a Reform Bill of sorts, which tried to distinguish between classes of working-class men when extending the franchise. What happened there is basically what Trollope describes: the Conservatives plus the radicals plus a handful of rebel Liberals defeated it; the Liberals fell and the Conservatives took office under Lord Derby, with Disraeli in the House of Commons.

And then, much to everyone's surprise, the Conservatives introduced a Reform Bill that went further than the one defeated. This was partly because the public mood had swung so far (this was the time of the riots in Hyde Park that I mentioned earlier), and in the end the Bill was much more extreme than anyone had anticipated; the main point is that it finally addressed the position and population of urban centres like Manchester, which had been grossly underrepresented compared to agricultural districts. It also did a little (not a lot) to disenfranchise some of the more corrupt boroughs.

Disraeli was the main mover in all this. His theory was that a grateful working-class electorate would vote Conservative instead of Liberal at the following election---a theory that worked out exactly as well as such theories usually do. :)

67souloftherose
aug 3, 2014, 1:48 pm

>66 lyzard: Thanks and no problem. Hope things are less pear-shaped today.

I've had a bit of a cold this weekend (not a particularly bad one) but I still have fuzzy brain because I'm now staring at my notes on the next few chapters trying to remember what on earth I wanted to ask about the passages I've noted.... Here goes.

Chapter 29: A Cabinet Meeting

107. The poor fictionist...

I think this is the first long passage where Trollope addresses the reader that I've noticed in this novel. I like these :-)

108. "The worst of these failures is, that the same identical bill can never be brought in again."

Is that because there's a rule against it or simply because there'd be no point doing so?

109. "He would dissolve, I presume," said the Duke.

I think at this point it's been less than 2 years since the last election?

Chapter 30: Mr Kennedy's Luck

110. The old men held their seats, but they did so as it were only upon further trial. Mr. Mildmay took the course which he had indicated to his colleagues at the Cabinet meeting.

What course was that?

111. The session was to be closed at the end of June, to the great dismay of London tradesmen and of young ladies who had not been entirely successful in the early season.

Dismay because most people would then leave London? Did the London season match the Parliamentary season?

Chapter 31: Finn for Loughton

No questions!

68lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 3, 2014, 6:46 pm

Chapter 29

107. He does it a lot less in the "serious" novels than in the comedies.

108. Because in this instance there'd be no point. Bills often are reintroduced, when circumstances change sufficiently to make it likely what has been rejected in the past will now pass.

109. Less than two sessions, which is considerably under two years.

Chapter 30

110. To see the Queen and offer the government's resignation, on the presupposition that in the current state of affairs Lord De Terrier would decline to take over and that therefore the resignation would not be accepted. If this pans out the Liberals will stay in power until the end of the session, then call a general election.

111. Yes, more or less. Parliament reconvened before the season officially began, but then the season continued until the session was over, which was the sign for everyone to leave London for the summer. This was usually during July (in August at this time, the Thames got very stinky and no-one wanted to be in the city then).

69souloftherose
aug 4, 2014, 2:39 am

Chapter 32: Lady Laura Kennedy's Headache

This was a poignant chapter:

"I am beginning to think that it is a great curse to have been born a woman."

and

She had married a rich man in order that she might be able to do something in the world;—and now that she was this rich man's wife she found that she could do nothing. The rich man thought it to be quite enough for her to sit at home and look after his welfare.

112. He took Alison in hand, and worked his way gallantly through a couple of volumes.

What was Alison?

113. "Yes,—according to the prayer-book. And everything in truth is my own,—as all the dainties at the banquet belonged to Sancho the Governor."

"You mean," said he,—and then he hesitated; "you mean that Mr. Kennedy stands over you, guarding you for your own welfare, as the doctor stood over Sancho and guarded him?"


Who was Sancho?

Chapter 33: Mr. Slide's Grievance

No questions!

70lyzard
aug 4, 2014, 6:25 pm

I am currently reading Elizabeth Burton's The Early Victorians At Home and I came across something interesting. In one of the opening chapters in which Burton is drawing the social and political background of the beginning of Victoria's reign, it is mentioned that John Bright (the model for Mr Turnbull) was heavily involved from the beginning in the movement to repeal the Corn Laws. Along with his general "radicalism", that would have been one more thing that put him on Trollope's bad side.

71lyzard
aug 4, 2014, 6:35 pm

Chapter 32

Yes, as I commented earlier, we see an increasing tendency on Trollope's part from hereon in to examine the minutiae of relationships and the sometimes subtle things that wreck them. The irony here is that Laura has done exactly what her upbringing and her society would have believed that she should do, and it has brought her nothing but unhappiness. What we also see here, in distinction from the more comic novels, is a much more realistic division between love and property / social standing, which always conveniently came bundled together in the earlier novels.

112. The History Of Europe by Archibald Alison (the volumes seem to be entered as separate works so I can't give you a touchstone).

113. Sancho Panza, in Don Quixote. In the second part, Sancho becomes Governor of Baratria. At one point a marvellous feast is laid out in front of him, but the doctor who has been given the task of looking after him won't allow him to eat any of it - for his own good, of course.

72brenzi
aug 4, 2014, 7:17 pm

Finally caught up now and not surprisingly, I'm thoroughly enjoying Phineas Finn. I've appreciated all of Heather's good questions and the tutelage you've been providing Liz especially through the early political stuff. Here's one question for you though, and you may have mentioned this and I somehow missed it:

Chapter 30: "Come to us and we'll be your horgan."

Chapter 28: "Quintus Slide continued to assure him that a horgan was indispensable to him"

What's a horgan? It appears in a couple other places too.

73lyzard
aug 4, 2014, 7:27 pm

Hi, Bonnie! Thank you for joining us. :)

Various mentions are made of Mr Slide's mangling of the English language - in particular he has the Cockney tendency to misplace his aitches. So he drops the 'h' from some words and adds it on in others. Thus "horgan" = "organ" = The People's Banner (an organ of the press).

74souloftherose
Bewerkt: aug 5, 2014, 10:36 am

>70 lyzard: Thanks for the information Liz.

>72 brenzi: Welcome Bonnie :-)

Chapter 34: Was He Honest?

114. "Of course he'll like it," said Violet; "do you suppose Mr. Finn will object to ride with me in Saulsby Woods? It won't be the first time, will it?" "Violet," said Lady Baldock, "you have the most singular way of talking."

What was so singular about what Violet said?

Chapter 35: Mr. Monk upon Reform

115. Phineas, therefore, when he returned to London, had his £3,000 in his pocket. He owed some £500; and the remainder he would, of course, invest.

If I remember correctly, Phineas' allowance was £250 a year so his debts at this point were twice his annual income.

116. One great authority told us the other day that the sole object of legislation on this subject should be to get together the best possible 658 members of Parliament. That to me would be a most repulsive idea if it were not that by its very vagueness it becomes inoperative.

Do you know anything more about the 658 seats idea? I was struggling to understand why Mr. Monk found it so repulsive.

117. Another great authority has told us that our House of Commons should be the mirror of the people. I say, not its mirror, but its miniature. And let the artist be careful to put in every line of the expression of that ever-moving face. To do this is a great work, and the artist must know his trade well. In America the work has been done with so coarse a hand that nothing is shown in the picture but the broad, plain, unspeaking outline of the face.

Do you know what Mr Monk felt was wrong with the American system?

118. "Then you'd better have a paternal government at once," said Phineas.

"Just so," said Mr. Low,—"only that what you call a paternal government is not always quiet and orderly. National order I take to be submission to the law. I should not think it quiet and orderly if I were sent to Cayenne without being brought before a jury."


What was a paternal government and what's the reference to Cayenne (presumably not the pepper!)?

75cbl_tn
aug 5, 2014, 12:55 pm

I started Phineas Finn last night. It will take me a little while to catch up. I'm going back and reading the questions and answers for each chapter as I finish them.

I have a question from Chapter 2 that I don't think has been asked yet (as far as I can tell from the results of a keyword search of this page). From the last paragraph of the chapter:

Everybody was up to see him off in the morning, to give him coffee and good advice, and kisses, and to throw all manner of old shoes after him as he started on his great expedition to Parliament.

What is the significance of the shoe throwing? Does it have anything to do with his election to Parliament, or was it just a general custom when someone left home?

76lyzard
aug 5, 2014, 6:37 pm

Chapter 34

114. In this instance, Violet's refusal to recognise where a modest disclaimer was expected - both in terms of Phineas borrowing a horse from Lord Brentford - "Of course he'll like it" - and inviting (or demanding) that he ride with her, rather than waiting for him to invite her.

Chapter 35

115. Yes, about par for the course for a young man in his circumstances. (There's a reason why money-lenders and bill discounting return so obsessively as plot-points in these novels!)

116. It was a complicated voting scheme developed by a political scientist called Thomas Hare. I imagine what Mr Monk found repulsive about it is that it effectively eliminated the idea of representation of the voters - you got the best people, no matter who they were or where they came from.

117. The context of his remarks suggests that he felt only a certain kind of man was making his way in American politics, and that there was not a true reflection of the voting population as a whole. (A lack of shading or variation, if you like.)

118. A dictatorship, or a system where there is no representational government, where the people have no say in their own governance.

They are referring to the prevailing system in France, under Napoleon III, which was viewed in England as despotic and arbitrary. Cayenne is the capital of Guiana in South America; off the coast were a group of islands including the one known as "Devil's Island", which supported a French penal colony. It was where French political prisoners were sent, often without benefit of trial. (This is where Alfred Dreyfus was imprisoned.)

77lyzard
aug 5, 2014, 6:40 pm

>75 cbl_tn: Hi, Carrie - thank you for joining in!

Throwing shoes after someone as they embark on a journey is a traditional way of wishing good luck; it is most commonly seen at weddings, with shoes thrown after the departing couple (or tied to the back of their car), but it was originally associated with travelling of any kind, particularly when the traveller did not expect to return (or not for some time).

78cbl_tn
aug 5, 2014, 8:49 pm

Thanks Liz! I don't think it was a custom in the U.S., or at least, not in this part of the U.S. I live in Appalachia, where folks were fortunate to have a pair of shoes at all. They certainly didn't have any to spare for throwing at people!

I'm getting ready to start Chapter 6, which seems to be one of the more difficult ones. I'm glad I'll have Heather's questions and your responses to refer to as I read!

79lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 5, 2014, 9:38 pm

No, it seems to be a very British custom. Note, though, that they only throw old shoes.

Please don't hesitate to ask more questions, or if you need me to expand on anything I said to Heather.

80brenzi
aug 5, 2014, 10:15 pm

>73 lyzard: Well, duh, you would've thought I could've figured that out haha. Thanks Liz:-)

81lyzard
aug 5, 2014, 10:35 pm

It's probably more obvious to those of us used to English speech patterns. :)

82lyzard
aug 5, 2014, 11:10 pm

Ha!

Spoilers (kind of) for Chapter 21 onwards

In The Early Victorians At Home, there is a section on the earliest experiments with tinned food and other methods of preservation (many of them failures that resulted in food poisoning), and it does make the point that the Admiralty was at the forefront of this kind of work in order to obtain large amounts of preserved food for the navy; also that in early days, much of what was used was imported from Australia and the US. So the potted peas inquiry is near enough to what was going on, even if it was decided that the navy could do without importing preserved peas from Germany. :)

83souloftherose
aug 6, 2014, 5:15 pm

>82 lyzard: I am so excited to hear that was based on real life :-)

No questions tonight - things seem to be running away with me a bit this week. Hopefully tomorrow.

84cbl_tn
aug 7, 2014, 12:18 pm

Chapter 11 Trollope's novels are starting to resemble hockey matches! I was wondering how long it would take for a fight to break out. (Although it happened in the past and we don't get the blow by blow account.) Right now Lady Laura's promotion of her brother as husband material for Violet is reminding me of the Kate, Alice, and George Vavasor relationship. At least Kate wasn't aware of some of George's worst faults, though.

85souloftherose
aug 7, 2014, 2:39 pm

>75 cbl_tn: And to add a thank you for your question about the old shoes in Chapter 2 as I missed that when I read that chapter. It may be a British custom but I'd never heard of it before either!

>84 cbl_tn: Yes, at least Violet seems to know her own mind better than poor Kate did.

Chapter 36: Phineas Finn Makes Progress

119. "They tell me that Mr. Mildmay will abandon the custody of the bill to Mr. Gresham after his first speech."

Is this the bill from chapter 28 going to a committee and it will Mr Gresham leading the committee rather than Mr Mildmay? Was it unusual for the person proposing the bill not to sit on or lead the committee discussing it?

120. The ideas of manhood suffrage, and of electoral districts, were to be as for ever removed from the bulwarks of the British Constitution.

Is manhood suffrage the same as the ballot? What does Trollope mean by electoral districts?

121. He made one remark personal to Mr. Turnbull. "I quite agreed with the right honourable gentleman in the chair," he said, "when he declared that the honourable member was not out of order just now. We all of us agree with him always on such points. The rules of our House have been laid down with the utmost latitude, so that the course of our debates may not be frivolously or too easily interrupted. But a member may be so in order as to incur the displeasure of the House, and to merit the reproaches of his countrymen." This little duel gave great life to the debate; but it was said that those two great Reformers, Mr. Turnbull and Mr. Monk, could never again meet as friends.

What did Mr Monk say that was so bad?

Chapter 37: A Rough Encounter

No questions.

86souloftherose
aug 7, 2014, 2:41 pm

Chapter 38 (I left the title off to avoid spoilers)

122. "Infamous scoundrel!" said Phineas to himself, as he read this. "Vile, low, disreputable blackguard!" It was clear enough, however, that Quintus Slide had found out something of his secret. If so, his only hope would rest on the fact that his friends were not likely to see the columns of the People's Banner.

I thought we hadn't seen the last of Mr Slide!

Chapter 39: Lady Laura Is Told

123. There was written there plainly enough that spretæ injuria formæ of which she herself was conscious, but only conscious. Even his eyes, blind as he had been, were opened,—and he knew that he had been a fool.

Oh Phineas. Do you know what the Latin means?

124. "You cannot make a woman subject to you as a dog is so. You may have all the outside and as much of the inside as you can master. With a dog you may be sure of both."

Ouch. I see what you mean about Mr Kennedy now.

87lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 7, 2014, 6:10 pm

>84 cbl_tn: Yes, and it doesn't get any easier to take when we know Lord Chiltern better.

88brenzi
aug 7, 2014, 6:29 pm

>84 cbl_tn: George Vavasor was an absolute villain. I hope Lord Chiltern doesn't end up in that category. Right now, he just seems very annoying and self-serving.

Just a general question Liz, since it seems that Phineas is constantly looking for a locale to represent, how long are the MPs elected for? In the states, even though the terms are for only two years in the House, once elected, it's hard to get an incumbent out. I realize there is the whole redistricting going on in Trollope's novel and that is certainly impacting Phineas.

89lyzard
aug 7, 2014, 6:43 pm

Chapter 36

119. Neither of them will be leading the committee. What happens at this stage is that each separate clause of the Bill is considered and possibly amended by the committee. Since the makeup of the committee must reflect the makeup of the House, in this instance there must effectively be equal numbers from each party. Each clause must be separately debated in committee, and the whole thing is debated in the House of Lords, where there may be further amendments. Then, each amended clause has to go back to the House of Commons to be debated again. The whole process is likely to be very long and very slow in this case (it isn't always), and so Mr Mildmay is handing over to Mr Gresham the job of "babysitting" the bill.

120. "Manhood suffrage" means that all men (just *men*) get the vote regardless of their social standing and property holdings, which up to this point was what determined if a man got the vote or not. By "electral districts" Trollope is referring to the redistribution of electoral boundaries, although the scheme he suggests of rural districts and urban districts was never adopted. Rather, reform in this area was about getting better representation based on population, and about abolishing "pocket" or little boroughs (like Loughshane!) which were overrepresented.

121. It was Mr Turnbull who said something bad; Mr Monk then reprimanded him for it, via the speech you quote.

There were rules about what you could and could not say in the House, and generally members were given a lot of scope to be abusive or to make personal attacks (under "Parliamentary privilege"). Here, Mr Turnbull has not technically violated the rules ("it was ruled he had not been out of order"), but the speech he makes can be interpreted a threat, possibly to encourage civil disobedience and even rioting, if he doesn't get his way. It is for this that Mr Monk reprimands him.

90lyzard
aug 7, 2014, 6:50 pm

>88 brenzi: Lord Chiltern is not like George, but he is not without, shall we say, idiosyncracies of his own...

At this time in Britain, where there was no clear majority, in many electorates there was no "safe" candidate and seats changed hands quite frequently. There were a few representatives who held a seat for long periods of time, either through the apathy (or fear) of the electorate, or conversely through personal popularity (like Mr Monk), but for many members politics was an uncertain game.

The maximum time a government could be in office (and so a member hold his seat) was five years, but with such tiny majorities and so many defeated government bills at this time, dissolutions and general elections were much more frequent, so that some members only held their seats for a matter of months. The redistribution of electoral boundaries (though, as I have mentioned before, this was not happening as drastically as Trollope makes it sound) also had an effect.

91lyzard
aug 7, 2014, 6:56 pm

Chapter 38

122. As we saw in The Warden and Barchester Towers, Trollope was very much concerned by the increasing powers of the press, which he saw as making news rather than reporting it and interefering in public affairs. And if he disapproved of The Jupiter (i.e. The Times), you can imagine how he felt about papers like The People's Banner!

Chapter 39

123. That's from Virgil - "the insult offered to her slighted beauty". Of course, it isn't a slight to Laura's beauty as such that is the issue, but a slight to her altogether.

124. Alas, yes.

92lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 7, 2014, 7:05 pm

...and that is an excellent place to have a break between Q&A, because I want to highlight the fact that Chapter 40 is a very important chapter in terms of both this novel and the Palliser series going forward - it is one of those chapters where Trollope starts to lay groundwork for future events, and to introduce characters who will be important to the ongoing storyline.

93souloftherose
Bewerkt: aug 9, 2014, 4:43 pm

Chapter 40

125. There were old stories afloat,—so said the article—of what in a former century had been done by Lord Mohuns and Mr. Bests

Who were Lord Mohuns and Mr Bests?

126. Spotting some familiar names here:

John Grey - from Can You Forgive Her?

Marchionness of Hartletop - I eventually remembered that this was Lady Dumbello (Griselda) daughter of Archdeacon Grantly with whom Plantagenet once considered having an affair (in The Small House at Allington?)

Was it acceptable for wives to be invited to dinner without their husbands? Both Lady Dumbello and Lady Laura seem to be there on their own.

127. She had thick black hair, which she wore in curls,—unlike anybody else in the world

Wearing your hair in curls wasn't fashionable at the time?

128. The one great drawback to the life of women is that they cannot act in politics."

and

Politically I should want to out-Turnbull Mr. Turnbull, to vote for everything that could be voted for,—ballot, manhood suffrage, womanhood suffrage, unlimited right of striking, tenant right, education of everybody, annual parliaments, and the abolition of at least the bench of bishops."

I like Madame Goesler!

Chapter 41

No questions.

94lyzard
aug 10, 2014, 6:42 pm

Chapter 40

125. Fictional and non-fictional duellists. Lord Mohun is a character in Thackeray's Henry Esmond; Charles Best killed his opponent, Lord Camelford, in a duel in 1804.

126. Yes, the old Marquis of Hartletop has apparently died between books, and the former Lord Dumbello has inherited his father's title. But I don't think we can fairly say Planty considered having an affair with Griselda, given he could barely bring himself to speak to her! :D

On the contrary, it was extremely unfashionable for husbands and wives to do anything together, at least at the level of the aristocracy - partly because arranged marriages were still common. (Hence the expression, used earlier, "Darby and Joan" - it was when spouses were in each other's company that it was remarkable.) In Laura's case, however, we can imagine that there has been a certain amount of defiance of spousal authority.

127. Rather that she wears them loose about her face instead of pulled back - doing what suits her instead of following the fashion.

128. Just as well, because you'll be seeing a lot more of her going forward... :)

95Cobscook
aug 10, 2014, 8:26 pm

I couldn't stop myself and raced on ahead to finish Phineas. I won't say anything specific but I have to say I really enjoyed the female characters in this novel!

96lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 10, 2014, 8:30 pm

And what, no questions at all!? Awww... :)

We can talk some more about the female characters when Heather is finished.

97brenzi
aug 10, 2014, 9:11 pm

>95 Cobscook: Me too. I have a very difficult time pacing myself when I read Trollope. The pages just fly.

98souloftherose
aug 11, 2014, 4:29 am

>95 Cobscook: & >97 brenzi: Congratulations on finishing Phineas! I am going to be a little longer before finishing I think...

Chapter 42

No questions

Chapter 43

129 "I have already ventured to write a letter to my agent at Loughton, telling him that you have accepted office, and that you will be shortly there again."

Why does having a seat on the Treasury Board mean Phineas has to visit the Borough?

130. "And if we can scrape through with Clause 72 we shall be all right;—shall we not?" This was the clause as to which so violent an opposition was expected from Mr. Turnbull

This refers to the clause mentioned earlier in the chapter which gave provision for "the drafting of certain superfluous members from little boroughs, and bestowing them on populous towns at which they were much wanted". I'm not sure I fully understand what the clause was proposing to do.

131. In what respect had Gatton and Old Sarum been worse than Loughton?

Were Gatton and Old Sarum other Boroughs?

132. "In the open House we are almost as much beaten by a narrow majority as by a vote against us."

Why is this?

99souloftherose
aug 11, 2014, 4:33 am

Chapter 44

No questions.

Chapter 45

133. "Then I hope that Mr. Finn may succeed. I want him to succeed in everything. There;—you may know it all. He is my Phœbus Apollo."

I think I remember this phrase from The Small House at Allington. Apollo was the sun god - what does Phœbus mean?

100lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 11, 2014, 6:50 pm

>98 souloftherose: No hurry! :D

Chapter 43

129. Phineas is not actually "in" at Loughton yet; he is standing unopposed, so it is taken for granted he will be, but he still needs to show himself there and make a few speeches.

Trollope of course is highlighting the absurdity and contradiction of the system, wherein politicians worked for reform, but in the meantime exploited their privileges quite ruthlessly. Lord Brentford is a member of a party working to abolish pocket boroughs, but sees nothing wrong with placing "his" candidate in office.

130. One of the problems, which reform was (supposedly) addressing was over-representation: some agricultural districts, in particular, had a ridiculously high number of MPs, while some densely populated urban districts were under-represented. Instead of altering the numbers and, on one hand, abolishing those extra seats, and on the other, creating extra seats (with the appropriate elections), the clause proposes a "redistribution" of existing MPs. This is not proper representation, and Mr Turnbull is against it. (Mr Daubeny is also against it because the old system favoured the Conservatives.)

131. Gatton and Old Sarum were two of the most notorious rotten boroughs. Old Sarum was a town that didn't actually exist any more: it was the original site of a cathedral, but was abandoned when Salisbury Cathedral (the model for Barchester) was built. Nevertheless, Old Sarum retained its ancient right to two members of parliament. Gatton was a town with only seven voters, but still had an MP. Both were abolished by redistribution of boundaries under the first Reform Bill of 1832.

132. Because it's a moral victory for the opposition, and because by the time the bill gets through committee it won't look anything like it did in the first place.

Chapter 45

133. "Phoebus" was a term meaning "light"; "Phoebus Apollo" was a way of referencing Apollo's position as god of light. In the 19th century it became a popular literary term to denote a young man of particular or unusual attractiveness; attractive for qualities in addition to his good looks. (In George Meredith's The Egoist, the rather improbable hero is described as "Phoebus Apollo turned fasting friar".)

101souloftherose
aug 12, 2014, 2:51 am

>100 lyzard: Phineas is not actually "in" at Loughton yet Thank you, I'd completely misunderstood that and thought he was MP for Loughton already.

Chapter 46

No questions.

Chapter 47

134. But then, after the franchise, came redistribution.

Does this mean the committee have addressed all the points in the bill about who gets to vote (the franchise) but will now start discussing the points about redistribution that you explained in msg 100?

135. It was then 3 a.m., and Mr. Gresham, rising after the division, said that his right honourable friend the First Lord of the Treasury was too tired to return to the House, and had requested him to state that the Government would declare their purpose at 6 p.m. on the following evening.

Is Mr. Mildmay the First Lord of the Treasury?

136. "We all know," said Mr. Monk, "and none better than Mr. Mildmay, that we cannot justify such a borough as Loughton by the theory of our parliamentary representation,—any more than we can justify the fact that Huntingdonshire should return as many members as the East Riding. There must be compromises, and you should trust to others who have studied the matter more thoroughly than you, to say how far the compromise should go at the present moment."

"It is the influence of the peer, not the paucity of the electors," said Phineas.

"And has no peer any influence in a county? Would you disfranchise Westmoreland? Believe me, Finn, if you want to be useful, you must submit yourself in such matters to those with whom you act."


Were East Riding and Westmoreland other contentious Boroughs?

137. Phineas understood, also, that he had lost his seat at Loughton.

Does he cease to be an MP immediately or at the end of the session?

102lyzard
aug 12, 2014, 6:30 pm

Chapter 47

134. Yes - though as I've mentioned, redistribution was not as prominent under the Second Reform Bill as Trollope makes it in this novel.

135. Yes, traditionally there were six Lords of the Treasury, with the Prime Minister generally being also First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer (i.e. Planty Pall) being the Second Lord of the Treasury.

We see in this passage that Mr Mildmay has indeed handed the management of the Bill over to Mr Gresham.

136. Both Huntingdonshire and the East Riding returned two MPs, though one was small and one was huge. Westmoreland was norotiously corrupt and had been since early the previous century, but because of its size and importance could not simply be disenfranchised in the way that (for example) Loughton is.

137. Until the end of the session - or until the dissolution, at which time Loughton will cease to exist.

103souloftherose
aug 13, 2014, 2:38 am

Chapter 48

138. on the very day on which Phineas reached Matching, at half an hour before the time for dressing, the Duke of Omnium arrived.

Another familiar face!

139. "There was no heir, you know, for a year and a half, and they were all au désespoir; and the Duke was very nearly quarrelling with his nephew"

This is referring to Can You Forgive Her?

140. The Duke shook hands with him, and made a little bow, and said something about the garrotters, which Phineas, in his confusion, did not quite understand.

What are garrotters?

141. on this occasion Madame Max was as steady in her seat and almost as slow as the mounted ghost in Don Juan.

Who was Don Juan?

Chapter 49

142. Phineas went into the billiard-room in his knickerbockers

I thought knickerbockers were 20th century baggy trousers - were they also worn earlier than that?

143. "I don't quite understand what the franchise is," continued Madame Max Goesler.

"Household in boroughs," said Phineas with some energy.

"Very well;—household in boroughs. I daresay that is very fine and very liberal, though I don't comprehend it in the least. And you want a borough. Very well. You won't go to the households. I don't think you will;—not at first, that is."


Does Madame Goesler really not understand the franchise? How would Phineas go to the households?

144. she told him that accident had made her rich, full of money. Money was a drug with her. Money she knew was wanted, even for householders. Would he not understand her, and come to her, and learn from her how faithful a woman could be?

What should I be reading into this?

104lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 13, 2014, 6:53 pm

Chapter 48

138. Yes, there's more integration of the various series threads from this point.

139. Yes.

140. The men who attacked Mr Kennedy. A thin object placed about the throat to strangle or cut is a "garotte". Attacks of the kind sustained by Mr Kennedy, in which the victim was incapacitated by a garotte, were common in the early 1860s but were stamped out via extremely punative sentencing.

141. A legendary Spanish seducer of women. His story has been recounted in many different ways, most famously by in the opera Don Giovanni by Mozart and Lorenzo Da Ponte, and by Byron in his poem Don Juan (which of course was intended as a self-portrait). At the end of the story, Don Juan is carried off to Hell by a statue of the father of one of his female victims, which comes to life.

Chapter 49

142. They were knee-length pants. They were worn by men for various outdoor pursuits (in this case, shooting).

143. I'm sure Madame Goesler understands very well. Phineas is talking jargon to her and she is paying him back by pretending to misunderstand. "Household in boroughs" was one of the definitions of who had the franchise, i.e. you were a resident with a certain income. (Five pounds, I think; lowering the property ownership requirements was one of the ways the franchise was extended.)

However, Madame Goesler's remark, "The households will know nothing about it till they are told" indicates her scepticism about reform - Phineas will get another seat not by appealling to the voters or giving them a reason to vote for him, but by finding another patron like Lord Brentford.

144. Anything you like. :)

105souloftherose
Bewerkt: aug 14, 2014, 2:41 am

Chapter 50

Not really questions, but comments:

145. But as he went up to London he told himself that the air of the House of Commons was now the very breath of his nostrils. Life to him without it would be no life. To have come within the reach of the good things of political life, to have made his mark so as to have almost insured future success, to have been the petted young official aspirant of the day,—and then to sink down into the miserable platitudes of private life, to undergo daily attendance in law-courts without a brief, to listen to men who had come to be much below him in estimation and social intercourse, to sit in a wretched chamber up three pairs of stairs at Lincoln's Inn, whereas he was now at this moment provided with a gorgeous apartment looking out into the Park from the Colonial Office in Downing Street, to be attended by a mongrel between a clerk and an errand boy at 17s. 6d. a week instead of by a private secretary who was the son of an earl's sister, and was petted by countesses' daughters innumerable,—all this would surely break his heart. He could have done it, so he told himself, and could have taken glory in doing it, had not these other things come in his way. But the other things had come.

Should have listened to Mr Low, Phineas....

146. The bill which had passed in the late session for reforming the constitution of the House of Commons had not touched Ireland, a future measure having been promised to the Irish for their comfort; and Loughshane therefore was, as to Lord Tulla's influence, the same as it had ever been.

It seems quite ironic that Phineas is getting yet another seat on a basis which goes against the reform he's working for.

147. Mary had communicated to her mother her resolutions as to her future life. "The fact is, mamma, I love him. I cannot help it. If he ever chooses to come for me, here I am. If he does not, I will bear it as well as I can. It may be very mean of me, but it's true."

This reminded me of Lily Dale a little bit.

Chapter 51

Troubles at Loughlinter indeed!

"And yet what can a woman become if she remain single? The curse is to be a woman at all."

148. I shall knock under to Mr. Mill, and go in for women's rights

Who was Mr. Mill?

Chapter 52 and 53

No questions.

106lyzard
aug 14, 2014, 6:27 pm

Chapter 50

147. Trollope certainly had particular ideas about the tenacity of a "nice" girl's love. In context, though, we feel the painful contrast between Mary's loyalty and Phineas's shiftiness. I forget who said it, but one academic I've read made the point that if Phineas was a woman, he would be crucified for his behaviour, but instead there's a tacit "Oh, well, boys will be boys" air about it.

Chapter 51

John Stuart Mill, the era's leading crusader for women's rights. Among other things he led a campaign for votes for women. At a time when the idea of all men having the vote was still shocking he didn't get anywhere, but his agitation kept the subject in the public consciousness.

Mill was the author of The Subjection Of Women - you might remember that I wrote about him a bit in my blog post on Suffer And Be Still.

107lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 14, 2014, 6:34 pm

"Matrimony never seemed to be very charming, and upon my word it does not become more alluring by what I find at Loughlinter."

I find that a fairly extraordinary passage - you can't imagine it appearing in any of the Barchester novels. We have shifted to a realm where the question of what a woman was to do with her life is at least being taken seriously, even if no real alternatives to marriage are offered - chiefly because there were few alternatives for a woman at this level of society, since as a single woman she must be chaperoned and therefore was not "allowed" to live her own life.

"And yet what can a woman become if she remain single? The curse is to be a woman at all."

Laura's situation is particularly interesting - it's one of the earliest examples I know of incompatibility of temperament being treated as sufficient cause for marital misery - or rather, one of the earliest not to suggest that the right response is for the woman either to adjust her views, or just to lump it.

108Cobscook
aug 15, 2014, 1:57 pm

>96 lyzard: Oh, I have questions, or more probably comments, but I got so far ahead I can't make them! :)

>107 lyzard: Laura was one of the best parts of the book for me. Trollope does an excellent job with her character and really explores the lack of choice women had at that time. Mr. Kennedy really wasn't a terrible guy, he was just super rigid and they made each other miserable. I love that the lesson here is maybe choosing your husband just because of his wealth and position isn't the best idea. I feel like this is a huge turn around in attitude from Trollope.

109souloftherose
aug 16, 2014, 4:12 am

>107 lyzard: Liz, I read ahead to the end of Chapter 57 before reading your comments and was going to ask whether anyone had written about an unhappy marriage of this sort before Trollope after reading Chapter 55 as I couldn't think of any examples amongst other Victorian novels I'd read. Heartbreaking stuff.

110souloftherose
aug 16, 2014, 4:15 am

Chapter 54

149. "There are maidens in Scotland more lovely by far, who would gladly be bride to the young Lochinvar."

"But young Lochinvar got his bride," said Phineas.


Who was Lochinvar?

Chapter 55

No questions but a couple of quotes:

But in truth neither of Lady Laura's councillors was able to give her advice that could serve her. She felt that she could not leave her husband without other cause than now existed, although she felt, also, that to go back to him was to go back to utter wretchedness. And when she saw Violet and her brother together there came to her dreams of what might have been her own happiness had she kept herself free from those terrible bonds in which she was now held a prisoner. She could not get out of her heart the remembrance of that young man who would have been her lover, if she would have let him,—of whose love for herself she had been aware before she had handed herself over as a bale of goods to her unloved, unloving husband. She had married Mr. Kennedy because she was afraid that otherwise she might find herself forced to own that she loved that other man who was then a nobody;—almost nobody. It was not Mr. Kennedy's money that had bought her. This woman in regard to money had shown herself to be as generous as the sun. But in marrying Mr. Kennedy she had maintained herself in her high position, among the first of her own people,—among the first socially and among the first politically. But had she married Phineas,—had she become Lady Laura Finn,—there would have been a great descent. She could not have entertained the leading men of her party. She would not have been on a level with the wives and daughters of Cabinet Ministers. She might, indeed, have remained unmarried! But she knew that had she done so,—had she so resolved,—that which she called her fancy would have been too strong for her. She would not have remained unmarried. At that time it was her fate to be either Lady Laura Kennedy or Lady Laura Finn. And she had chosen to be Lady Laura Kennedy. To neither Violet Effingham nor to her brother could she tell one half of the sorrow which afflicted her.

and

"I cannot say what I will do. I would die if I knew how. Never be a tyrant, Oswald; or at any rate, not a cold tyrant. And remember this, there is no tyranny to a woman like telling her of her duty. Talk of beating a woman! Beating might often be a mercy."

111souloftherose
aug 16, 2014, 4:22 am

Chapter 56 and 57

No questions.

Chapter 58

Lots of questions :-)

150. It had been all very well to put down Fenianism, and Ribandmen, and Repeal

From your post above, Fenianism was the movement that wanted Irish independence. What were Ribandmen and Repeal references to?

151. In regard to the Church, he had long made up his mind that the Establishment in Ireland was a crying sin.

The Establishment was the establishment of the Anglican church in Ireland?

152.

What were Protestant Endowments?

153. But in regard to tenant-right, to some arrangement by which a tenant in Ireland might be at least encouraged to lay out what little capital he might have in labour or money without being at once called upon to pay rent for that outlay which was his own, as well as for the land which was not his own

What was tenant-right?

154. Look at the annual motions which come forward in the hands of private men,—Maynooth and the ballot for instance.

Who or what were Maynooth and the ballot? Is the ballot the secret voting Mr Turnbull wanted?

155. Mrs. Finn had long since been quite sure that a real black swan had been sent forth out of her nest.

I don't think I've heard this expression before. I think from the context that a black swan was a good thing?

Chapter 59, 60 and 61

No questions (to make up for all the questions on chapter 58)!

112lyzard
aug 18, 2014, 5:35 pm

Sorry, people! - the last few days have been a bit difficult. :(

>108 Cobscook: Sure you can, Heidi - let's have those comments!! :D

I don't think that Trollope ever before had anyone marrying for - I won't say money, that's not fair to Laura, but position; previously he has managed to bundle love and money together so his characters didn't have to make the kind of choices that Laura is faced with here. As I touched on earlier, her society would certainly have considered that she made the right choice, and having made that choice, she would be expected to just "play the game" afterwards.

>109 souloftherose: Other than Trollope, the only writer I can think of to dissect marriages like this is George Eliot in Middlemarch.

We should note, however, that Laura has more choice than most - she has an option because she is the daughter of an Earl, and because her father and brother are willing to support her. The vast majority of women in her situation had no "out" of any kind; middle-class parents would not receive into their home a daughter who left her husband. Such a woman would be an outcast even if there had been no actual "sin". Being miserable was not considered any excuse for walking out.

113lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 18, 2014, 5:47 pm

Chapter 54

149. Yet another reference to Walter Scott - Young Lochinvar appears in Scott's epic poem Marmion, published in 1808. The girl that Lochinvar loves is forced to marry another man; he appears in the middle of the post-wedding festivities and carries her away.

Note the way that the poem is used here. Madame Max uses the Lochinvar reference to hint that there are other women who would be interested in marrying Phineas, but he points out that Lochinvar was in love with a married woman.

The other point here is that both the poems quoted by Madame Max deal with impecunious young men carrying off women higher-born (and richer) than themselves.

114lyzard
aug 18, 2014, 6:18 pm

Chapter 58

150. "Ribandmen", or "ribbonmen", were the members of an Irish Catholic movement fighting for the rights of tenant-farmers; they wore an identifying green ribbon. The Repeal Association wanted the repeal of the Act of Union, that is, its members wanted Irish independence and home rule.

Consider the way that sentence is phrased - It had been all very well to put down Fenianism, and Ribandmen, and Repeal - whatever the issue is and whatever the Irish want, it must be "put down".

151. & 152. Yes. Ireland was predominantly Catholic, and yet people were forced to pay tithes to the Protestant church (the Protestant Endowments) - and the money was used to improve the conditions of Protestants, at a time when there was poverty, economic depression and even famine across the whole country.

153. We touched upon tenant-right at the outset of the novel; briefly, Irish tenant-farmers were kept on very short leases and could be turned out at almost a moment's notice if the landlord thought someone else could pay more rent. It was an even more extreme version of that in England where landowners could force tenants to (for example) vote as they wanted. Furthermore, if an Irish tenant did anything to improve the house he was living in or the land he was working, it usually meant an increase in rent - he was punished not rewarded.

It was a system that gave the landlords a lot of power and could mean short-term gain since they could take in a new tenant at increased rent whenever one became available, but its overall tendency was the degeneration of both land and housing (and people), since there was no incentive to invest. The movement for tenant-rights wanted the situation addressed, with proper long-term leases and protection for the farmer.

154. Maynooth was a Catholic seminary college. In the 1840s, when hostilities between England and Ireland were increasing, Robert Peel's government increased the grant to the college as a gesture of good-will. An MP called Francis Berkeley brought in a private members bill to repeal the grant every year from 1848 onwards, and (obviously) was defeated every time. By this stage it had become a running joke. However, the grant was commuted in 1869.

155. HA!! :)

"A black swan" was an old British expression indicating something rare and wonderful, even mythical - similar to a unicorn or a phoenix. Then people settled in Western Australia and found out there really was such a thing as a black swan! But the expression persisted anyway amongst those who had never seen a real black swan. It was a variant on the ugly duckling story.

115CDVicarage
aug 19, 2014, 4:15 am

A recent episode of the BBC's Who Do You Think You Are? featuring Julie Walters, dealt with the fight for tenant-right, as her ancestors were involved. It's probably still available on iplayer for anyone who can/wants to watch it.

116souloftherose
aug 19, 2014, 1:54 pm

>114 lyzard: Thanks Liz!

"We touched upon tenant-right at the outset of the novel"

Of course I had remembered that, I was just, erm, asking again in case anyone else had forgotten....

>115 CDVicarage: Thanks for the mention of the Julie Walters' programme Kerri. It's still available on iplayer for a couple of months so I will try to watch it.

Chapter 62-64

No questions. The news about Lady Laura in Chaptyer 64 is sad, although not really unexpected at this point (although as Liz comments in >113 lyzard: it is unusual that Lady Laura had this option).

I think I'm on track to finish this week. If anyone has any other questions or comments please chip in! Just mark the chapter in bold if you're further ahead and then I'll know not to read that post :-)

117lyzard
aug 19, 2014, 5:21 pm

I should add on the subject of unhappy marriages that it was not uncommon for husbands and wives to mutually agree on separation, but again, it required social standing and a good income - because the acceptable way to proceed was to have two households. Usually the wife would live in the country, "for her health", and the husband would live in the city.

118souloftherose
aug 20, 2014, 2:29 am

Chapter 65-68

In which Phineas decides he's now in love with Mary (Violet being unavailable) but only one chapter later considers throwing Mary over for Madame Goesler's money. Grrr.

And ending on a bit of a cliffhanger with "That very day Mr. Kennedy went to his lawyer, and desired that steps might be taken for the restitution to him of his conjugal rights." Uh oh.

119CDVicarage
aug 20, 2014, 3:50 am

I've got a general question: Is Mr Gresham, the current Prime Minister, Frank Gresham of Greshamsbury, whom we met in Dr Thorne?

120lyzard
aug 20, 2014, 7:27 am

>118 souloftherose: Ain't he a sweetie??

Really, his only saving grace is that he can't quite bring himself to marry quite cold-bloodedly, for money - though the flipside of that is he keeps having to convince himself that he's in love with this woman and then that woman...

>119 CDVicarage: No, this is a different branch of the same family. (Frank would still be in his twenties at this point.)

121CDVicarage
aug 20, 2014, 9:05 am

>120 lyzard: I thought not - Timothy West uses quite a different voice! - but I've lost track of the dates a bit.

122souloftherose
aug 21, 2014, 4:01 pm

>119 CDVicarage: Kerri, that kept confusing me at first too!

>120 lyzard: What I can't understand is why so many women find him attractive. Although as the only other options are men like Mr Kennedy or Lord Chiltern.....

Chapter 69

156. I have been reading Tennyson, as you told me, and I fancy that I could in truth be a Mariana

I don't know my Tennyson. Who was Mariana?

157. He had so lately spoken to Lady Laura with an assurance of undying constancy of his love for Miss Effingham, that he could not as yet acknowledge the force of another passion.

Well, at least he feels a little bit ashamed.

Chapter 70

158. It did not suit Mr. Gresham to understand this, so he changed the subject. "Have you seen the news from America?"

"Yes, I have seen it, but do not believe it," said Phineas.

"Ah, you have such faith in a combination of British colonies, properly backed in Downing Street, as to think them strong against a world in arms. In your place I should hold to the same doctrine,—hold to it stoutly."


What happened in America?

Chapter 71

159. "One can hardly forgive a man for such speedy changes," said Violet.

"Was I not to forgive him;—I, who had turned myself away from him with a fixed purpose the moment that I found that he had made a mark upon my heart? I could not wipe off the mark, and yet I married. Was he not to try to wipe off his mark?"

"It seems that he wiped it off very quickly;—and since that he has wiped off another mark. One doesn't know how many marks he has wiped off. They are like the inn-keeper's score which he makes in chalk. A damp cloth brings them all away, and leaves nothing behind."

"What would you have?"

"There should be a little notch on the stick,—to remember by," said Violet. "Not that I complain, you know. I cannot complain, as I was not notched myself."

"You are silly, Violet."

"In not having allowed myself to be notched by this great champion?"


Ha!

Chapter 72

160. But even now, when he had done right,—knowing well that he had done right,—he found that comfort did not come readily within his reach.

I almost feel sorry for him. Don't know whether to think Madame Goesler has had a lucky escape or whether I should have hoped Mary would have had the lucky escape.

123souloftherose
aug 21, 2014, 4:01 pm

Four chapters left! :-(

124lyzard
aug 21, 2014, 6:42 pm

>122 souloftherose: I think we're to take the fact that he is very physically attractive for granted. In addition to that, he is simply different from the men these women have known all their lives. (Although I'd say there's a large measure of a man's idea of "what women want" in there too!)

Chapter 69

156. Mariana is a poem about a woman separated from her lover and living in isolation, who becomes depressed to the point of developing a death wish; the poem ends on a down note, closing before Mariana's lover returns. (We might to inclined to wonder why Phineas has recommended this particular poem to Mary...!)

157. Or at least, he understands he should.

Chapter 70

158. Between 1866 and 1870, the Fenian Brotherhood in America staged a series of raids upon targets in Canada (still British at that time, of course). This is a reference to the raids of May and June 1866, where the Fenians entered what is now Ontario and Quebec. It is interesting that Mr Greshem and Phineas are so incredulous, given that this guerilla warfare went on for another three years. (It didn't help the Fenians, but it helped unite the various Canadian provinces and is often considered the starting-point of Canadian nationhood.)

Chapter 71

159. Yes, we can only be glad of Violet's defiant stance - yet her alternative fate hardly seems a fitting reward.

Chapter 72

160. I don't; my sympathies are all with the women. :)

125lyzard
aug 21, 2014, 6:43 pm

>123 souloftherose: ...*sniff,sniff*...

126souloftherose
aug 22, 2014, 7:23 am

And I'm done. The end was more sudden than I expected.

127CDVicarage
aug 22, 2014, 12:56 pm

I finished yesterday and was also rather taken aback by the abruptness of the ending.

Although I enjoyed it I think that was mostly because of the reading by Timothy West. I wasn't as involved with the story as I had been with Can you forgive her? or the Barchester Chronicles. The politics aspect was a bit dry and quite hard to follow in some parts.

Phineas was quite a charmer but didn't really seem to grow up - it was quite a shock when he said he was thirty at the end of the story. However I was impressed by the fact that he wasn't in debt and seemed to work quite hard at his job, when he had it.

128Cobscook
aug 22, 2014, 2:37 pm

I agree that it was refreshing that Phineas didn't get himself into debt and was quite willing to work for his living, but honestly, he didn't deserve ANY of the women who "loved" him. I don't believe for a second that he actually "loved" any of them!

129gennyt
aug 22, 2014, 3:39 pm

Phineas comes across as one of those 'golden' people who are physically very attractive and charming and find that because of these outward attributes things seem to work out for them, and drop into their lap without any real effort, while troubles seem not to stick to them. When he put his name to his friend's bill, we expect from the fate of previous characters, like Mark Robarts in Framley Parsonage, that Phineas is about to get into serious money trouble, but before long he is in the clear without any real cost to himself. It's a few months now since I finished reading this so I can't remember all the details, but I remember feeling that Phineas is too charming for his own good, in that people make so many allowances for him that his character is not put through any really deep testing times. He continues to be well-intentioned (if very fickle where women are concerned) but apparently quite shallow, and does not seem to realise how lucky he is. The parts where I remember feeling most sympathetic towards hime, and saw him really struggle for a while, were in his attempts to make his maiden speech - for a while he lost his golden fluency and found himself as awkward as most of us feel most of the time.

This is my first time reading the Palliser novels so I'm not sure if Phineas appears substantially in later novels - I hope so, because it would be interesting to see how Trollope develops his character. I agree with >127 CDVicarage: that he seems barely to have grown up by the end of this novel.

130CDVicarage
aug 22, 2014, 5:16 pm

>129 gennyt: I assumed he reappears as one of the novels is called Phineas Redux!

131lyzard
Bewerkt: aug 22, 2014, 5:39 pm

I think the abruptness of the ending is intentional, showing that Phineas's sense of giving up the world is justified. There were no half-measures in the political world: when you were in you were IN, and when you were out you were OUT.

So we are to understand that he has, at last, made a significant self-sacrifice...though even here we are led to see that if he could have found a publically honourable way to wriggle out of his resignation, he would have done it. (As we know, he's good at reconciling his actions with his private conscience.)

I agree with the points Genny makes about Phineas's character, or lack thereof. One way or another he has been spoiled and "petted", to use Laura's word, all his life - starting as the one boy in a family of girls. There's an air of entitlement about him right from the start, in the way he demands money from his father, secure that his mother and sisters will back him even though they will be the ones to pay for his pleasures.

It is one of the ongoingly exasperating things about Trollope's novels (though perhaps it is an accurate reflection of his world) that his men never deserve the women they get. This feeling is only intensified in Phineas Finn because for the first time, I think, Trollope really puts himself in the place of his female characters and takes their concerns seriously.

We only have to consider the difference between how he handles Laura and Violet here, and how he treats, say, Mary Thorne, where there is always the assurance that things will "work out" even while she is being put through the wringer. There is no such assurance in this novel, and things don't "work out" for either of them; we can hardly be happy about the end of Violet's story, and as for Laura--- How sad is it that we can honestly say of both of them that they'd be better off with Phineas??

But yes, for better or worse, Phineas makes his reappearance in two novels' time.

132souloftherose
aug 26, 2014, 10:16 am

Interesting comments from everyone :-)

I agree with Genny and Liz that Phineas seems to be one of those golden characters and probably too indulged by his mother and sisters.

>131 lyzard: Liz, very interesting points about where things end up for Violet and Laura compared to Mary Thorne. I'm tempted to ask if we encounter Laura and Violet again in the Palliser novels but I expect that deserves a "Wait and see" answer!

Like Kerri, I don't think I was quite as captivated with Phineas Finn as a novel compared to Can You Forgive Her? but I really appreciated all the help with the politics :-)

133lyzard
aug 28, 2014, 6:08 pm

I think the thing about Phineas Finn is - intentionally on Trollope's part - that it is basically a book about failure. You have Phineas's various feints ultimately amounting to very little, set against the backdrop of a government that can't do what it sets out to do. None of the characters get where we expect or wish them to get. There is an underlying sense of frustration and incompleteness that is realistic but makes for an uncomfortable novel!

134cbl_tn
aug 28, 2014, 6:57 pm

I just finished the book. I liked Phineas a little better than it seems everyone else did. I didn't like any of the women in this book as much as Lucy Robarts or Miss Dunstable. I felt more sympathy for Phineas than for any of the female characters. Phineas was often able to will himself to do the right thing even when his heart wasn't in it. His feelings might not have been hidden from other characters as well as he thought they were, but I don't think any of them had as much insight into his feelings as the readers do. Their judgment of him would be based much more on his behavior, and it really didn't provide others with much cause for complaint. He didn't heed the advice he was given early on and he made mistakes, but he accepted the responsibility for his mistakes. I'll be ready to meet him again Phineas Redux.

135luvamystery65
okt 28, 2017, 3:04 pm

Bumping the thread.

136luvamystery65
Bewerkt: nov 20, 2017, 4:15 pm

I finished this book and the tutoring on the politics of the day was very helpful. I'm so glad that Carrie >134 cbl_tn: liked Phineas. I really did enjoy this character and it was worrying me that most didn't. I found him spoiled, but very redeemable. I thought he was fairly honest about his ambitions. He was a bit of a cad, but in the end, he gave it all up for his beliefs and his lady. I also, admired how he was a true friend to those he liked. Violet really had his number down. I liked Madame Goesler, but I don't believe for a minute she would have turned down the opportunity she was originally given. Laura was a huge disappointment in comparison to Lily Dale and even Alice Vavasor.

This has been my favorite of the Trollope books I've read so far.

I listened to The Chronicles of Barsetshire narrated by Timothy West. I loved them and his narration, especially Mrs. Proudie. I was unable to start the Palliser Novels with Timothy West because I had to borrow Can You Forgive Her? from the library. It was narrated by Simon Vance. I really did enjoy his narration as well. Strange to say that all of the Palliser novels are available from library narrated by Vance except this one. I listened to a version narrated by David Shaw Parker. It was enjoyable, but it will be interesting to hear Vance narrate Phineas in Phineas Redux.

Thank you Liz for your invaluable tutoring that continues to help us even years later.