Teaching men not to rape

When, in the wake of the news about several cases of rape, I posted the topic "Sequester the women or raise decent men?" in the Pro & Con group, one of the answers--seriously--was "neither". (Just use draconian punishment...)

I'm still all for raising decent men (decent people goes without saying, but there's a reason to focus on men).

As this kind of effort is likely to get hijacked by xenophobes and racists, I prefer to post the link here.

Norway Offers Migrants a Lesson in How to Treat Women

“Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.

Why should it be taboo to say it's the culture that's at fault? Not Moroccan culture, Sudanese culture, Kenyan culture, but rape culture, the same we're still contending with in the West.

>1 LolaWalser: I don't have any sympathy for the "men have urges they can't control" argument, no matter what the culture.

>3 sparemethecensor: Ditto. And it runs directly counter to the traditional patriarchal idea that only men have the ability to lead and hold power. If men are wild animals, why should they be in charge of quite literally anything?

>2 southernbooklady:, >3 sparemethecensor:

Agreed, of course. I only meant that similar attitudes--depreciation of, objectification, "entitlement" to women--still make themselves present in the West.

Okay, I'm sort of feeling my way through this, so forgive me if I'm not coherent:

Having read and tried to absorb the arguments made in the book Racecraft, I've been wondering if a similar approach could be taken when thinking about misogyny. If race is a product of racism, isn't anything that assigns women a role or a use basically a product of misogyny? What is "rape culture" after all but a general agreement that women exist to be used to some purpose?

>5 southernbooklady:

Yeees, right, I believe I'm following... Go on?

Okay, so biology is not destiny. The ability to have children is not a pre-ordained mandate to have children. Having a penis or a vagina is not a mandate to have sex. Just as the fact that I have a talent for drawing does not mean I must become an artist. Or the fact that I have a good singing voice means I should become a singer. (I don't, by the way. I can''t carry a tune)

That means, then, that anytime we assign women a role based on their capacity for getting pregnant it is reducing her to an object that can be inseminated. Her existence is founded on her ability to be impregnated. Her capacity to have a penis put in her. She exists to be raped. Her personhood is secondary, if not completely irrelevant.

So "rape culture" isn't just some distasteful aspect of a sexually promiscuous culture. It isn't a product of watching too much porn or fantasizing about gangbanging a slut who really wants it or believing that women are asking for it if they dress a certain way. It is the acceptance -- unquestioned -- that women exist to be used. And that would include women who are urged to preserve their value by remaining virgins until they are married and those whose value is in their accessibility. And in fact, every time we ask why a woman has not got married/had children/become a mother what we're really asking is why is she defying her designated role as object to be penetrated by penises and object that pushes out babies.

Am I off base here?

>7 southernbooklady:

Am I off base here?

Nope, not that I can see.

So "rape culture" isn't just some distasteful aspect of a sexually promiscuous culture.

Right--I think it is generally understood it's universal, i.e. there's rape culture in France as well as in Saudi Arabia. (Which doesn't mean that, practically, for any given woman it's just the same whether she's in France or Saudi Arabia.)

And in fact, every time we ask why a woman has not got married/had children/become a mother what we're really asking is why is she defying her designated role as object to be penetrated by penises and object that pushes out babies.

Pretty much. Nobody bothers asking unmarried, childless men why they haven't wedded & procreated, do they? And if it's not something one thinks is "askable" of men, it's revealing that it's "askable" of women.

I found some of the statements in this article deeply disturbing. It feels like a totally alien thought process.

. . . culturally supplied narratives turn into excuses for men to blame their victims.

. . . ideas about women as “gatekeepers” and men as captives to their high libidos need to be the first notion to go.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/12/21/reddit_ask_a_rapist_thread_is_no...

>9 Taphophile13: I found some of the statements in this article deeply disturbing.

Only some? I suppose since the stories can't be verified you have to assume that there is fantasy mixed in with reality in the "ask a rapist" thread, but hat article makes me think castration is a sensible punishment for rape.

>10 southernbooklady: I would say all were disturbing, but some more so than others. It's almost like hearing from an alien species. There seems to be a total disconnect, as if they don't recognize that women are people, maybe not even living beings.

>11 Taphophile13: as if they don't recognize that women are people

I don't think there is any "as if" about it.

But perhaps we should be asking not "do they recognize women as people" but "should we recognize them as people?" We tend to regard our capacity for empathy, our imagination, our ability to put ourselves in the place of another, as one of the defining attributes of humanity. But if you look at a person and see only an object, does this not imply that you are the one who is "not a person"?

>12 southernbooklady: Indeed, lacking empathy and imagination does mitigate against inclusion in the human race.

Just a thought. Has anyone ever done studies: blood work, DNA, CAT scans, etc. on rapists to determine if there is some biological difference. If there have been such studies, I have not heard of them but I think they should be done. (Unfortunately, some one is sure to try to use the results to say it's a birth defect so you can't blame me for my behavior.)

>13 Taphophile13: Regardless of your DNA, I think if you can manage to dress yourself every day you have enough self control not to rape someone.

Consider that in 1972 Bernie Sanders wrote a paper he and his handlers insist was pointing out that assigned roles by gender is a cultural habit that should be dropped. Yet, he wrote in his paper that the reason gender roles are assigned (implication: by men) is that women are naturally submissive. He illustrates with a hypothetical heterosexual couple. Men, Sanders says, masturbate to fantasies of bound women; women fantasize about being raped. This is the basis of the "rape myth," that men rape because they believe women "want" it due to being submissive. Now, I'm not saying that Sanders was at the time of this writing, or is now an advocate of submissive women naturally give in, so it's all right to do what you want if you're a man. In fact, he has pretty much repudiated that paper since his candidacy.

Also, consider that over 98% of campus rapists (in this country) are white males; that 1 in 5 (at a minimum) of women college students have endured sexual assault; that hardly any of these violent crimes are even treated as crimes by college administrations. In fact, it's the victims who are brushed aside, blamed, and shamed. It's not just the male frat boy, encouraged and egged on by his peers, and assisted by alcohol, and abetted by porn who thinks he's privileged because he isn't punished. It's the mostly male white administrators who have institutionalized a "boys will be boys" attitude that sends a clear message to young white men -- it's okay to rape as long as you're not caught in flagrante delicto. After all, what are coeds for? Hence, most campus rapists are serial rapist with 5-6 or more victims to their "credit."

Would predominantly women administrators change this culture of rape? Would it benefit women to not attend coed institutions" Are we looking at the root of this problem by (not) interfering only by the time men and women are college age? Why don't fathers who adore their daughters raise their sons not to be boys who will be boys? Why don't mothers teach their sons that they are not entitled to unrestricted sexual freedom as they overwhelmingly do their daughters? Why are men focused on protecting their sexual "manhood" more than their humanity?

The sad fact is society continues to accept the rape myth as normal and acceptable. Men will be boys and women "want it." There is underwhelming desire to put a stop to the culture of rape in this country probably because America is still the "possession" of white males and power is the magnet that accrues privilege. Thus privileged white males get away with the crime of rape, and it is not universally condemned for the same reason that institutions, including the court system, continue to be dominated by the same cohort which has no interest in changing the status quo.

>7 southernbooklady:

(probably i should read the rest of the thread before responding to this but)

She exists to be raped. my first thought when reading this was to hedge it a bit. (which is unlike me when it comes to these issues.) but as i copied and pasted it, i started to think about andrea dworkin and her statement that basically all heterosexual sex is rape and how i actually do agree with that in the context she intended. so, in that context, as awful as that sounds, i do have to agree with you. and really, when we say that women exist for the sexual pleasure of men, which is what this culture is constantly telling us is our purpose, that's really just a nice (i know it's not nice) way of saying what you said, nicki.

So "rape culture" isn't just some distasteful aspect of a sexually promiscuous culture. It isn't a product of watching too much porn or fantasizing about gangbanging a slut who really wants it or believing that women are asking for it if they dress a certain way. It is the acceptance -- unquestioned -- that women exist to be used.

i've never heard of rape culture described as a direct what? result? of living in a promiscuous culture. is that what people say? when i teach on rape culture the definition i use is more or less: an environment that tolerates, supports, encourages, and perpetuates the sexual violence of women by men. i think i might have to add "and sexual availability of women for men." because you're right...

(i'm not going to derail the thread by harping on it, but i do think that the example of mainstream porn isn't a good one, as it's shown to directly influence violence against women.)

oh! also:

And in fact, every time we ask why a woman has not got married/had children/become a mother what we're really asking is why is she defying her designated role as object to be penetrated by penises and object that pushes out babies.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After having done some teaching in private high schools with very high income families attending, I've gotten some ideas about all this. I repeatedly see boys and young men getting anything they want from indulgent parents who at the very least look the other way when their children misbehave and at the worst defend them vigorously, using their money and power to get the results they want. It's a slippery slope from fixing grades, to cheating, to bullying, to rape. These young men then get a taste of freedom at college and is it any wonder that they feel free to "take sex" (as they mistakenly thing of it - I doubt they use the word rape in their minds) when they want it.

I know this is only one type of rape and there are many other factors, but I do think that it's one reason why rape on college campuses is so prevalent.

>13 Taphophile13:

the idea that a rapist is "different than" is a dangerous one. rapists aren't different and outside the norm. the vast majority of rapes are committed by someone known by the woman raped. a friend or family member. not someone "other than," but someone she knows and probably/maybe trusts. when we imagine the scary loner weirdo in the van or whatever, we are less likely to notice the reality, which is that it's much more likely to be your boyfriend, your brother, your uncle, your friend.

>16 overlycriticalelisa: i've never heard of rape culture described as a direct what? result? of living in a promiscuous culture. is that what people say

It probably depends on the people. Roxane Gay discusses rape culture in Bad Feminist and her focus is on, among other things, how rape is fetishized in mainstream media. So I think there is a significant part of our society that understands the phrase as that -- the fetishization of rape, the acceptance of it in that context.

But it wasn't my intention to suggest that rape culture "comes from" porn. Just the opposite...the porn is a manifestation of what our culture thinks of women: objects to be fucked.

>19 overlycriticalelisa: the idea that a rapist is "different than" is a dangerous one.

I agree. Not only do I not think that the rapist is "different," I don't care. The rapist is not some slavering animal acting on instinct. He (or she, I suppose, but he is far far more likely) is in enough control of his actions that he pays his taxes, dresses himself, feeds himself, pees in the toilet and takes showers. It shouldn't be that difficult not to rape someone.

>18 japaul22: That reminds me of several young men who have been the news lately. Ethan Couch, the teen who killed four people while driving drunk and got probation because he suffers from afluenza.
There was also Elliot Rodger who shot a number of people because he was angry that girls had rejected him. Both exhibited a huge sense of entitlement.

>19 overlycriticalelisa: I don't mean to imply that rapists are other, i.e. strangers. I see them as "other" in that they are capable of committing physical and emotional violence against another person. It's a way of thinking or being that I simply don't understand. Is there something different about them that makes them able to do such things that most people would never contemplate? I don't know and I don't much care what makes them the way they are. I want to know how society can deal with them and decrease their attacks.

Many years ago I read that on a subconscious level all men benefit from the presence of rapists because it helps to keep women fearful and in their place. If true, that's very sad.

>21 Taphophile13: Many years ago I read that on a subconscious level all men benefit from the presence of rapists because it helps to keep women fearful and in their place.

From Rebecca Solnit's essay "Men explain Lolita to me":

The omnipresence of men raping female children as a literary subject, from Tess of the d’Urbervilles to Less Than Zero, along with real-life accounts like that of Jaycee Dugard (kidnapped at 11 in 1991 and used as a sex slave for 18 years by a Bay Area man), can have the cumulative effect of reminding women that we spend a lot of our lives quietly, strategically trying not to get raped, which takes a huge toll on our lives and affects our sense of self. Sometimes art reminds us of life.

And speaking of rape culture and mainstream media, someone once suggested women prefer "Walking Dead" to "Game of Thrones" precisely because it doesn't wallow in rape scenes:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/12/women-love-walking-dead-rap...

During a Producer's Guild discussion this past Sunday on "Courting the Female Audience", panelists noted that female viewers are looking for "nuance" and that they're more "discerning" than male viewers. But the observation that resonated most with me was from Debra Birnbaum, a contributing editor at Variety who said she finds it difficult to deal with the "rape and torture" upon which so many procedural dramas rely.

It may seem counterintuitive – after all, the show is bloody, has lots of violence, and can be, frankly, gross – but the The Walking Dead is missing one plot device on which so many other shows rely: rape.

>22 southernbooklady: Interesting point about Walking Dead. I think that show is far from perfect, and I stopped watching it in season two because of its poor portrayals of women and people of color, but I stopped watching Game of Thrones even sooner because of its gratuitous violence against women and use of female bodies as set decoration. There was quite literally a character who existed solely to show her breasts during dialogue-heavy scenes and get raped by secondary characters. Emphasis here is on gratuitous -- I am not opposed to meaningful stories of violence against women but using rape as a crutch is a dealbreaker for me.

I'll also note my fiance continues to watch both shows and has told me that Walking Dead has gotten a lot better in terms of female characters and people of color (though it still stumbles on the latter considering it's set in Georgia, especially), but Game of Thrones still has multiple highly problematic rape scenes each year and is utterly unapologetic in its use of women as props.

>21 Taphophile13:

Well... male privilege is in itself something that benefits all men. As it is established through a system of enforced measures and opinions that determine women (women specifically) as an underclass, I suppose rape, or the threat of violence in general, contributes to it. It is a privilege to belong to a group that does not (generally) have to fear sexual assault. It is a privilege to have freedom of movement etc.--such as men, much more so than women, have enjoyed and still disproportionately enjoy.

>18 japaul22:, >15 Limelite:

Regarding co-ed situations, I just want to mention that the classic enclosed American college campus is a specific microcosm, that doesn't always correspond to situations elsewhere. That is, I wouldn't judge the worth of co-education based on that example alone.

As far as it is possible to generalize, it seems to me that as long as we live on a "co-ed" planet, learning to live side by side with those not of our gender is necessary. And as with any learning we want to turn into habit, the sooner started the better.

Which reminds me of those young immigrants. I am anxious about their situation for the sake of their environment but also for their own, of course. It must be terribly jarring to go from one context into another which turns all your values upside-down. In poor countries much of personal dignity is tied in with the status of the individual's body. Anywhere a man is worth more than a woman, every man, no matter how poor, underprivileged, exploited, gets an implicit boost just from the fact of his maleness--of NOT being a woman.

To have that taken away at the same moment where they are rendered helpless by the lack of knowledge of language and/or skills etc.--just think how great the psychological shocks must be.

ETA: x-post with 22 & 23--LT's slow for me again

There was a very disturbing almost-rape on Walking Dead several seasons ago, with "The Governor" being seconds away from raping Maggie but then walking away, after forcing her to remove clothing and be completely humiliated and dehumanized. It served no purpose and was incredibly uncomfortable to watch. And yes, there can only be one main black male character. They can only last a couple seasons each, before being replaced by a new one. If a new one ever comes around? Yeah you can pretty much guarantee the previous one is going to be no more, very soon. At least they finally got to a decent storyline again this season. Hasn't been worth watching since the 1st one, but I was already "invested" so I still keep up.

And then there is this:

Date Rape ad in Bloomingdale's catalog

A woman is laughing, head tossed back, focused on something over her right shoulder. A man stares at her, unsmiling. The caption reads: Spike your best friend’s eggnog when they’re not looking.

You can't make this stuff up.

>20 southernbooklady:

thanks, and yes, the fetishization of rape is a great example of rape culture (although not a definition of it).

The rapist is not some slavering animal acting on instinct. i always liked responding to the high school boys who insisted that once sexual activity begins, they can't stop (like they physically are actually unable to stop) by asking if it was really true that if their grandmother walked into their room, that they'd really be unable to do anything but continue even with her watching.

i also used to say that it's not as if an erect penis just falls into a vagina, but then this happened last week: http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/12/saudi-millionaire-rape-charge.html

rape is a choice, not an accident, not a misunderstanding.

>27 overlycriticalelisa:

if it was really true that if their grandmother walked into their room, that they'd really be unable to do anything but continue even with her watching.

Many years ago, Dan Savage deconstructed this "can't stop" bullshit in one of his columns. I knew it before, but I particularly appreciated hearing it from a gay man (supposedly the most sex-mad demographic on the planet).

But your example is great. You could also ask, what if someone yells "FIRE"? What if there is a fire? Well, that's the effect someone fighting back and saying "no" should have on the proceedings.

>26 southernbooklady:

You know... it's really hard to believe that wasn't done deliberately. I would so like to know who designed it and who approved it.

>21 Taphophile13:

I see them as "other" in that they are capable of committing physical and emotional violence against another person.

but this isn't "other" in our society, unfortunately. i remember a study i read probably 10 years ago now that interviewed thousands of frat boys and a crazy number of them (over 80%) said that they'd rape if they knew they'd get away with it. it wasn't the fact that it was wrong that stopped them, but that they might get caught.

i'm in a bit of a funk so maybe am more cynical than usual, but it seems to me that "committing physical and emotional violence against" each other is what we do. not always rape, certainly, but i really don't think it's very "other" or outside the norm in our society.

I want to know how society can deal with them and decrease their attacks. for me, the answer to this goes back to what lola said about raising decent men who don't believe they're entitled to anything, starting with women's bodies.

>28 LolaWalser:

what if there's a fire is a great question to ask a mature adult in this conversation - for high school boys i suspect they'd all just say something about the other fire down below.

glad that dan savage wrote about that - people really listen to him. and like you said, especially from a gay man.

So this happened:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35241818

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/world/europe/coordinated-attacks-on-women-in-c...

Large and seemingly coordinated groups of men harassed, grabbed and assaulted women in Cologne during the New Year's Eve celebrations. Because the men appeared to not speak German and were dark-skinned, the focus of the discussion has been on the dangers of allowing refugees into Germany (although it's unknown whether any of the perpetrators were refugees).

The news of what happened first appeared on right-wing websites (the really skeevy, racist ones) and they initially reported that 10 000 women had been rounded up and raped by Muslims. The entire dialogue has been dominated by those who would like Muslims and migrants to be reviled.

I'm at a loss of how to respond to what happened. I did find this commentary worthwhile.

http://www.okwonga.com/how-to-deal-with-the-sexual-assaults-in-cologne/

>31 RidgewayGirl:

The BBC fucked up reporting on that initially too.

Good commentary.

As to what to do, round the bastards up, charge them, lock them up, and hope they get it up the ass in prison as many times as they groped a woman.

This is really infuriating... Women get told--again--it's up to them to keep themselves safe.

Cologne attacks: mayor lambasted for telling women to keep men at arm's length

If we're to assume every man is a mad dog, why don't we ban them from public spaces?

Another Twitter user, Marie von den Benken, wrote: “Frau Reker, the thing about the one arm’s length sounds more like one brain cell.”

You can say that again.

And this from a woman who was herself attacked by a man in public.

>33 LolaWalser: why don't we ban them from public spaces?

http://motleynews.net/2012/07/11/the-best-statement-made-about-rape-gold-meirs-c...
That was Golda Meier's suggestion as well. Why must we always punish or restrict the victim?

Don't let bigots steal feminism

Of which, I think the most significant part of the piece is this:

I’ll be blunt. I think some people out there are very excited by their conception of ‘Islamic’ violence against women. It allows them to enjoy the spectacle of women being brutalised and savaged whilst convincing themselves that it’s only foreign, savage men who do these things. If hearing that makes you angry, if it makes you want to smash my bitch face in and tell me I’m a whore who deserves to be raped to death by ISIS, then congratulations, you’ve just proved my point.

>35 southernbooklady:

Who will protect us from the "protectors"...

This summary on NPR is well worth reading, and following the links:

'Night Of Shame,' Week Of Soul-Searching: Cologne Attacks Divide Germany

(Note the tidbit about circa 10 rapes getting reported during Oktoberfest, but actually occurring estimated at 200. Also note the burden on the victims of sexual assault to prove they have defended themselves--vigorously.)

The right is instrumentalizing violence against women, no question at all and in the end, the most oppressed will get screwed over the most, as usual, be they women or immigrants.

German news today report of gang attacks on foreigners--"Arab" and "African"-seeming people anyway. (http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-01/fremdenfeindlichkeit-koeln-angriffe-auslaender) Such white knights all.

German feminist activists' campaign against sexism and racism:

http://ausnahmslos.org/english

Interesting interview with Henriette Reker, mayor of Cologne (of the now infamous "arm's length" protection remark):

An Interview with Cologne's Mayor: 'I Have Been Subjected to a Ton of Ridicule and Criticism'

Reker: During a one and a half hour press conference, I was asked what preventative advice includes. I then gave this example in one sentence. Perhaps it was a bit helpless, but it also shows how helpless our society is when it comes to dealing with such incidents.

>38 LolaWalser: but it also shows how helpless our society is when it comes to dealing with such incidents.

"Helpless"? What???

She could be genuinely at a loss, for all I know, but I think it should be understood as "helpless now but we must do something", not as "omg there's nothing we can do". And/or "helpless because we don't try/haven't done enough to deal with sexual violence...currently"--which seems as true for Germany as for any other European country (or any other country).

The amount of unreported sexual crimes is staggering (from what I gathered from various links).

Systemic misogyny is still a problem. While doing something to educate and control the newcomers is clearly a necessity, it looks as if the current situation, regarding both culture and law, needs a concurrent overhaul--or the former may not be achievable.

I was a little shocked that according to your other link, sexual harassment isn't a crime?

>41 southernbooklady:

Yeah, I saw that but don't know what exactly it means/refers to. I'm guessing--just guessing--that in Germany as well as in most of good old Europe, lots of people still have trouble believing that such expressions of "admiration" as unsolicited and unwanted sexual advances could be described as "harassment".

Overall--just talking about my impressions, gleaned from whatever I've read in the past, don't know if there's a good place somewhere that summarizes or discusses the differences--I think Europe, minus perhaps the Scandinavian countries, is way behind on legislating against sexual and domestic violence.

I saw somewhere that marital rape was made illegal/punishable only in 1997.

I've been wondering about why the police was so ineffectual. They couldn't even protect one of their own. In comparison, having been through a New Orleans Mardi Gras six times, and French Quarter crowds on countless occasions for more than three years, with dense rivers of people out of their fucking minds due to drink, drugs and excitement, I just have to wonder how it all goes relatively... well, not like it went down in Cologne on New Year's Eve. Unless NOPD buries the bodies and shuts down all reporting and we have no idea what REALLY happens!

I mean, there's always some trouble. But I'd never heard of anything like more than 500 complaints, and that on a risible 1000 people.

My husband told me today that some people at work are now less than enthusiastic about the refugees. Blaming them is proving to be easier than reflecting on how to change men's attitudes.

Incidentally, some 200 rapes were reported during Oktoberfest (and many more suspected). This did not spark a debate as 1. the perpetrators were ordinary Germans and white tourists, primarily and 2. it happens every year.

It is increasingly bewildering, perplexing and annoying how difficult it is to make heads or tails of the whole Cologne story.

The numbers make no sense at all, as currently reported, and some of the statements ascribed to the offenders even less.

I read a wonderfully acerbic analysis in Die Zeit of the reports so far, which included some devastating observations on homegrown misogyny and sexism, including the popular German recreation of underage sex tourism.

To be clear: every offence that actually took place in Cologne and elsewhere deserves to be punished. But this isn't allowed to proceed as a normal criminal investigation. This is a political witchhunt.

Apologies for going off topic--it's tangentially related to the discussion above--I was checking whether the article I read was available in English (no) and came across this, worth taking in account, when it comes to police dealing with the refugees, before things such as Cologne:

An analysis by German newspaper 'Die Zeit' has found that from 222 dangerous attacks on refugees homes this year, there have been just four convictions. There have been 637 reported incidents.

According to the study, almost all of the attacks still remain unresolved, while 11 percent of police investigations have been terminated completely. German police were able to identify a suspect in only a quarter of all cases.

>44 RidgewayGirl: To be fair, apparently those perpetuating these attacks were being especially vile; when being given citations and whatnot by the police they were simply ripping them up, and saying things like "who cares, tomorrow I will just go get a new asylum paper" or whatever like that. Seriously nasty behavior explicitly taking advantage of their situation, that is therefore tainting all of the refugee population. Of course it shouldn't, as many of these assholes as there were, there were certainly not the many thousands—that Germany has done so well at taking in—all partaking in it, they're only a fraction. But, whereas before it was baseless to want to refuse them entry, now there was actually a large group of them being horrible and then turning and laughing in the face of the law about it and using their refugee status as an excuse to do whatever they want. Definitely doesn't warm people's hearts about it all. :/

>47 .Monkey.: 31 asylum seekers out of 980,000. That's clearly a high enough percentage to warrant changing our attitude toward all of them.

It also changes the conversation from the very uncomfortable one of why men feel it's acceptable to treat women as objects and to ignore or downplay rape, to the easy peasy conversation about how horrible and ungrateful those other people are.

It's horrible. And we need to talk about it, but the number of concerned men who are suddenly all feminist when it comes to Islam, and decidedly less so when it comes to their own group (Christian, Atheists, American, Gamers, German, white, etc...) are legion. And the number of refugees or people who live in Germany who look vaguely Middle Eastern who are being harassed and physically attacked is growing dramatically.

All of the men taking part in the attacks in Cologne (and Hamburg) are reprehensible criminals who deserve to be persecuted to the full extent of the law. All of them. No matter how sad a story they have as a refugee or whether they were just caught up in a bit of Tahrir Square-style fun. Whether they were American (which one was) or German (which several were) or Syrian. But they remain individuals. Their actions represent no one but themselves. Just like when a white guy rapes or harasses a woman, his actions are not taken as reflective of all white men, or Dutch men or German men, etc...

As I said, it's only a fraction. But when people are already having issues about "floods of refugees" and then some group of them goes doing horrible things and using their status as a HAHA can't touch me! card, well, it's bound to create a much bigger amount of negativity. It's not remotely fair to the rest of the refugees, the great vast majority of whom are perfectly regular people who wouldn't do such things. And yes, the other sad result is it does change the focus from misogyny to racism.

The people who view it as "floods of refugees" are going to spin this the way they want to. I'm not sure what to do about that. Strangely, they draw no conclusions about the values of the people who burn down refugee homes or beat up people who look like they're not native born.

Right-Wing Parties Stoke Fear After Germany Attacks

(There's a freaking video on top that pops up--why do they DO that to articles now?! Anyway, warning if you have speakers on. Video related to the article, btw, but still. Eff "multimedia"...)

There you are, ladies, "Soldiers of Odin" have your best interests at heart. Apparently, somehow, they are best protected by doing a Kristallnacht on kebab joints and barbershops.

http://feministing.com/2016/01/13/quick-hit-after-cologne-we-cant-let-the-bigots...

Here's another article about the events in Cologne.

As Germany Welcomes Migrants, Sexual Attacks in Cologne Point to a New Reality

By 9 p.m., as many as 500 youths, some of them very drunk, were growing ever more reckless in hurling fireworks at people and buildings, threatening panic. But the commanding officer at the scene declined an offer of more than 80 reinforcements, who could have been in Cologne in an hour, according to Bernd Heinen, a senior police official, who criticized the commander for failing throughout the night to look ahead and anticipate a worsening situation.

By 10:20, 10 additional officers were sent to the square. About an hour later, as the crowd swelled to nearly 1,500 and the police assessed that “the mood grew increasingly aggressive,” the police commander decided to clear the square and block entrances to the station, but still did not request the extra unit of officers.

Let's say it's understandable that a drama of this proportion couldn't have been predicted... but the police really messed up here.

It's horrifying to think we're supposed to accept this is "the new reality". Fuck that. Go after those shits like you mean it.

By and large, feminists see gender equity and justice as a long term project that we all must share in, one which admits no simple solutions.

http://feministing.com/2016/02/02/here-lies-the-abyss-xenophobia-and-gender-afte...

When I speak of men and toxic masculinity, I say the solution is more humanity; when xenophobes speak of Muslims and the Cologne crimes, they say the solution is for us to abandon it.

I hadn't heard of this guy before but I am speechless.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/us-make-rape-legal-group-plans-worldwide-anti-wo...

http://www.thenational.scot/news/militant-pro-rape-pick-up-artist-organises-even...

>55 Taphophile13: I've noticed that guys like that never seem to think that they are the ones who could be raped.

That Return of Kings website is a cesspool. If you feel too optimistic about people, I recommend it.

And with these guys, male rape is only ever brought up as an argument against pushes to reduce rape in general - as in "why are you focusing on women's safety?" etc... Just as women's safety is only important in instances when the rapist/attacker is not white.

I wonder if there are any betting pools on this creep's likelihood of avoiding jail by-and-by.

My impression is that Roosh likes to hear himself talk. Much like our troll.

The study focussed on movies but I wonder whether books may not have the same effect? When I think back on some romance novels I've read, it's difficult to dissociate the acceptance (even expectation and encouragement!) of men's aggressive and hostile behaviour (such as slapping, grabbing, kissing "forcefully", even rape) in those books from similar attitudes in reality.

Study finds romcoms teach female filmgoers to tolerate 'stalking myths'

Hollywood’s sympathetic depictions of stalker-like behaviour – as with John Cusack’s hounding of an ex-partner in High Fidelity, or even the Beast’s behaviour towards Belle in Disney animated musical Beauty and the Beast – has echoes in India, where films routinely show males in aggressive pursuit of their romantic targets. In January this year a 32-year-old Indian security guard escaped a jail term in Australia after his lawyer successfully argued his harassment of women with unwanted texts, messages and personal advances was a byproduct of his passion for Bollywood movies.

!!!

A reflection of how shamefully complacent our society has become about rape. Another indication is the average sentence which sex assault carries at 35 months, less than federal marijuana charges (42 months).
And have a gander at these charming statistics from RAINN:

You can't teach men to rape because rape isn't taught. The men or women who want to rape someone are beyond persuasion. They are evil or sick or both. They are beyond discussion.

There's a pill that's given to pedophiles to reduce their sexual drive. There are also pills to reduce excessive emotion, including anger, taken by both men and women all over the world for a variety of reasons.

-- “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.

This is nonsense. Maybe it's true in Eritrea, but it isn't true here or in any other developed, civilized country. I doubt that rape was acceptable to the cavemen who lived 100,000 (?) years ago.

Neither men nor women have a natural impulse to rape. Both have a natural desire to have sex. In the case of many men, as much as possible, without consequences. In the case of many women, in order to have children. Fortunately two came together and found that raising a family could satify their needs.

Married people, I should add, are much less likely to commit rape.

If Eritrea can't maintain law and order, that's Eritrea's fault. If they choose to de-evolve, that's their choice.

>62 barney67: Married people, I should add, are much less likely to commit rape.

Not true.

Think about it.

Most victims are raped by people they know: family, friends, acquaintances. Something like 4/5 rapes fall into this category -- far fewer are strangers. But rape is about power more than it is about access to sex. Marriage is not a magic defense against being raped, and it does not make a rapist's compulsion to rape magically disappear.

>62 barney67:, >63 southernbooklady:

the vast majority of this post (62) isn't true.

65 -- What's your source for these opinions?

>67 barney67: The Department of Justice.

http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317

https://www.clevelandrapecrisis.org/resources/statistics/national-statistics-abo...

Germany to tighten rape laws in wake of Cologne attacks

Currently, Germany’s rape laws only include attacks where a victim can prove that they physically resisted and also verbally said ‘no’. If a victim freezes out of fear, is unable to consent due to drink or drug intake, or resisted but cannot prove that they did so, their attack does not meet burden of proof standards in the German legal system.

However, in light of national outrage at the Cologne attacks, the government has approved an amendment which no longer requires physical refusal.

How the heck do you "prove" that you said no?

German police investigating the attacks said that of the 58 men who they arrested in relation to the attacks, just three were refugees from Syria or Iraq.

I've read somewhere the largest group of the arrested were Moroccans--more than twenty--but again it's proving difficult to ascertain these facts.

American sex ed is failing our young men (and women):

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/21/american_sex_ed_and_culture_is_d...

Why am I not surprised that our fear and embarrassment style of teaching is not working?

This is not exactly on topic, but I think touches on it significantly, if, as seems to be increasingly the case, traditional socialization of men is seen as harmful:

Teaching Men to Be Emotionally Honest

That the context is American is probably important to some degree ("campus" culture etc.), but I think the ideas are not inapplicable elsewhere.

>71 LolaWalser: that's an interesting article but I don't know if I agree exactly with their terminology, or maybe I just don't think they're being specific enough about what they're talking about. I find "emotionally honest" a vague and weird phrase. I'd rather argue that men (in most cultures that I've studied into the gender roles of, mostly but not all Western) are not allowed to be vulnerable and they have voices from society telling them to take advantage of men and women who are vulnerable... which I think fits in quite well with the topic of teaching men not to rape as rapist the vast majority of time look to assault women they believe are vulnerable in some way (or they make women vulnerable to their attack in some way: alcohol, drugs, emotional abuse, isolation, etc)

As I'm typing I can see more what they mean by emotionally honest but men are given pretty free reign to be angry or excited or enthusiastic or romantic, pretty much any emotion that can be expressed outwardly that isn't expressed through distress (even though it may cause distress in others)... but even then society seems to have no problem with men crying over suitably masculine interests (no I don't like the idea that interests are gendered but yes society does that).

Although that last paragraph doesn't take into account intersectionality as black men are not allowed to be outwardly aggressive in any way and gay men are almost expected to be emotional... in a way that I am having problems describing so hopefully I have not just offended anyone by leaving it like that.

>72 morwen04:

I find "emotionally honest" a vague and weird phrase.

That's so funny--I wanted to make a similar remark about the title, but feared it would be distracting. I agree it's not the best phrase-and, weirdly, I don't think it's taken up again in the article. Maybe it was all about fitting the title into the layout or something... Still, as you say, there is some connection to "honesty" if what is forced on men is seen as a kind of masking, camouflage--lying, in short.

Comparison to other cultures is interesting, there are differences in some particulars of "what is allowed" to men, but the main similarity remains, the fundamental prohibition from behaving in non-manly, feminine ways. So that, yes, in some places men can, will more readily show distress--or happiness--in tears, or hold hands with male friends, hug and kiss them with exuberance--but this in no way negates the strict gender essentialism and separatism that rules in those places. Those men still have to behave a certain way and no other in order to "be men".

Although that last paragraph doesn't take into account intersectionality as black men are not allowed to be outwardly aggressive in any way and gay men are almost expected to be emotional

Well, about gay men, I'd say that's a stereotype rooted in the now very old-fashioned and discredited idea that they are somehow "women". Would gay boys, or boys who grow up to be gay men, get socialized according to some special expectations?

As to black men... it seems complicated... on the one hand, obviously there are plenty of countries where "black men" are just "men" and race plays no special part in defining their masculinity. But in the US... I need to tread cautiously in my ignorance, so I would just note, as a personal impression, that while it's true black men get punished particularly severely if they appear aggressive, they too are brought up with (objectively conflicting) messages that they need to be tough etc.--not-womanly.

I think for me the problem boils down to the obsession of defining men--any men--AGAINST women, where the positive for men is set off by the negativity of the feminine.

Whatever women are, that's what the future "man" must not be.

>32 LolaWalser:
As to what to do, round the bastards up, charge them, lock them up, and hope they get it up the ass in prison as many times as they groped a woman.

Are you advocating rape, as a punitive measure?

>74 krolik:

No, I don't, but that doesn't mean I can't hope for a bit of "an eye for an eye".

>75 LolaWalser:
"eye for an eye"?

Does non-consensual groping equal non-consensual sodomy?

Your example sounds asymmetrical to me, and less like an example of a version of justice than a power fantasy about how to hurt hated people.

>76 krolik:

Your example sounds asymmetrical to me, and less like an example of a version of justice than a power fantasy about how to hurt hated people.

No problem!

>73 LolaWalser: I do think you're on to something about the historic idea of gay men being linked with the feminine and the types of emotions that are linked with "feminine" but I think this is may be (dare I hope) starting to change.

I can't say much about how black men in other countries are viewed but in America there is a lot of rhetoric about black men being overly aggressive and then they are punished for displaying any signs of enthusiasm or aggression. There was a big to do when a football player for the Seattle Seahawks was loud at/near a blonde female interviewer. He was in no way being violent towards her but was (to me) just excited from the game but man oh man were people pretty terrible about it.

But this is getting away from the topic of the thread and I don't want to do that.

Indian woman who pursued rape charges is victimized again:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36823572

Horrible.

There's a wide regional tendency to allow crimes against women which, to me (and I could be paranoid but still right, no?), amounts to evidence of deliberate policy. Consider that Malala Yousafzai's attackers were acquitted. That in Pakistan perpetrators of "honour killings" are routinely officially "forgiven". I suppose this case may have been different if the victim had been from a more privileged background, but that's not really the point, is it...

Went a-googling for something and came across this:

FACTSHEET-The world's most dangerous countries for women

The lineup (but the details are worth looking at): 1. Afghanistan 2. Congo 3. Pakistan 4. india 5. Somalia

UK government's recent report on Pakistan is very interesting, but parts I had to read several times, as I couldn't believe my eyes (the Pakistani State doesn't give adequate protection to women because they are perceived as NOT BEING ENTITLED TO THE SAME HUMAN RIGHTS AS MEN???): Pakistan: Women fearing gender-based harm/violence

When just being female constitutes grounds for seeking asylum. What a world, eh.

Pakistan to pass law against honour killings in weeks - PM's daughter

But the honourable murderers need not worry, the current forgiveness loophole isn't going away. (Yes, I'll take bets on this.)

The influential Council of Islamic Ideology, which advises the government on the compatibility of laws with Islam, warned that it would not support any law that removed the forgiveness loophole, even though the council considers honour killings a crime.

Officially we can't actually approve killing the sluts, but if the honourable gentlemen should give in to temptation--as what honourable gentleman could not--we got his honourable back.

By the way, why is this announced by "PM's daughter"? Is she an appointed official or not? Seems random and condescending. "Oh, it's something to do with women--just get a woman to tell them--yes, you'll do, Aunt Flora."

>79 Taphophile13:

Those pigs were due in court today, but they weren't even arrested:

Indian men accused of raping woman for second time due in court

>84 LolaWalser: She's the president of the majority political party. It's not strange that she made the announcement, but it sucks that they refer to her as "PM's daughter" instead of her actual title.

>86 norabelle414:

Just so we don't miss the nepotism at work! :)

This time it's Texas. A woman who was raped, had a mental breakdown, was arrested, jailed, physically assaulted twice, and then charged with felony assault.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2016/07/a_texas_prosecutor...

It's so sad that this even needs to be done but I'm very glad that someone is helping these women:

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/first-ever-maternity-clinic-for-rape-survivors-o...

"2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals made it easier for men accused of sexual assault to sue schools for taking the alleged victims’ side."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/08/02/court_rules_anti_male_bias_a_val...

A follow up on the Norwegian campaign described in >1 LolaWalser: (11-minute video):

Norway's Muslim immigrants attend classes on western attitudes to women – video

Note that the only people the reporter spoke with were some relatively educated Syrians; not the most representative of the refugees, presumably.

Shame that the bureaucracy (I can't think what else) has kept the woman who's appealing her asylum rejection going to the class for four years. She says something very significant--an "Arab man" (her example) will approach and berate her, i.e. a Muslim woman, for the way she's dressed, but would not dare do so to a Western woman. For such people the world remains divided into good Muslim women and sluts, even if they will have learned not to break the law.

A very large proportion of the refugees arriving in Europe now are highly educated Syrians. The poorer Syrians can't afford to get this far.

>92 MarthaJeanne:

Syrians are most numerous but they are just a fraction of the recent 1.3 million refugees--about a third or less. Of those Syrians, less than half are young(er) men, most of whom--the numbers are hard to ascertain, so provisionally let's say 90-95%--don't have university education. "Educated Syrian men" aren't representative even of Syrian refugees, let alone all 1.3 million+.

By the way, in Syria, education was free all the way. Having a diploma does not mean one was rich. Also, as in every relatively poor, non-industrialised country, it was possible to make a comfortable living with skilled work but without having lots of formal education. I'd sooner expect a Syrian truck driver to have the money for the crossing than a teacher.

But I was talking about something different--it pays to watch the video to see what even those "educated" men--some of them anyway--think of gender equality and women's rights.

One proposes that women are better off "not being equal" and keeping busy in the kindergartens, as is normal "everywhere"; another admits he too might have considered women in short skirts are whores, but (he hastens to add) he changed.

Now, this is just a handful of individuals and I don't want to generalise overmuch, but it strikes me nevertheless that these two were relatively young--thirties, maybe even younger--while the oldest man, the fifty-sixty?-something teacher with the doctor wife, seemed and sounded very different. It could be different education and different environment--it would have been useful to know which places in Syria they came from--whatever it was, he was different. He was familiar. He was like the people I used to know.

But today I know they are not representative, and never have been.

This bill may soon go to the President for signing. It sounds good until you see how limited it really is, applies at the federal level only. States need to step up and process rape kits. It's a start.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/09/07/congress_unanimously_passes_a_se...