1timspalding
Okay, here's a question for someone:
What are the half-lifes of various nutrients and other necessaries in the body? How much variance is there? What declines quickly, what slowly?
Put another way, assume a perfectly balanced diet of various foods. Now divide them into two meals, A and B, such that they do not overlap at all, except in calories. Only one meal would have vitamin C, one only would have protein, etc.
I presume if you ate those two means in alternation morning and night, you'd be fine. But how far apart could you put them? If you went a year eating only A, you'd get something like scurvy or rickets. How far apart could you move them? What problems emerge first?
What are the half-lifes of various nutrients and other necessaries in the body? How much variance is there? What declines quickly, what slowly?
Put another way, assume a perfectly balanced diet of various foods. Now divide them into two meals, A and B, such that they do not overlap at all, except in calories. Only one meal would have vitamin C, one only would have protein, etc.
I presume if you ate those two means in alternation morning and night, you'd be fine. But how far apart could you put them? If you went a year eating only A, you'd get something like scurvy or rickets. How far apart could you move them? What problems emerge first?
2lesmel
Are you asking, in part, how long it takes to deplete a stored micro/macronutrient from the human body?
3timspalding
Right. I presume there are different sorts of storage at work. But yes.
4wester
Good question - it shows you have been thinking about this.
I know there are such things as half-lifes for medicines, and maybe they are known for some vitamins. But I'm pretty sure they are not known for such things as protein, and I doubt they could be.
Many of the roles of the macronutrients are interchangeable. For instance, both carbohydrates and fats are used for energy, and proteins also can be. So if you go a year without carbohydrates your body will switch over to fat for energy. On the other hand, if you go a year without fat, you will get problems (so-called rabbit starvation).
And there are other interactions that will make it problematic to find something as clean a a half-life. For instance, in the blood, vitamin C competes with sugar, so how long you have to wait to get scurvy without vitamin C depends on what energy source you are using.
Also, there are probably very many diets that humans can be perfectly healthy eating: potatoes and a bit of dairy, brown rice and lentils, all meat. Which of these diets are you going to choose as your perfectly balanced diet?
For a thorough investigation of what we know about human diets, I recommend Good Calories, Bad Calories. I know some people think it's biased - I think it's a good antidote to the biases that we think of as common sense, and it definitely helps to get a better grip on a very complex matter.
I know there are such things as half-lifes for medicines, and maybe they are known for some vitamins. But I'm pretty sure they are not known for such things as protein, and I doubt they could be.
Many of the roles of the macronutrients are interchangeable. For instance, both carbohydrates and fats are used for energy, and proteins also can be. So if you go a year without carbohydrates your body will switch over to fat for energy. On the other hand, if you go a year without fat, you will get problems (so-called rabbit starvation).
And there are other interactions that will make it problematic to find something as clean a a half-life. For instance, in the blood, vitamin C competes with sugar, so how long you have to wait to get scurvy without vitamin C depends on what energy source you are using.
Also, there are probably very many diets that humans can be perfectly healthy eating: potatoes and a bit of dairy, brown rice and lentils, all meat. Which of these diets are you going to choose as your perfectly balanced diet?
For a thorough investigation of what we know about human diets, I recommend Good Calories, Bad Calories. I know some people think it's biased - I think it's a good antidote to the biases that we think of as common sense, and it definitely helps to get a better grip on a very complex matter.
5lesmel
>3 timspalding: Random fact I picked up this year: it takes, on average, 3 years to deplete B12 stores in the adult body. B12 deficiency is ugly & results are permanent to varying degrees.
edited for clarity
edited for clarity
6lesmel
Also, I would think something like Geissler's Human nutrition would be much more helpful in answering questions about nutrient depletion. Answer about half-life for B1 from the book:
There seem to be only 5 references to "half-life" in the book, though.
There seem to be only 5 references to "half-life" in the book, though.
7krazy4katz
Genetics can play a role here too. People have different metabolic rates for different food products. Another variable would be the activity level of the person.
8timspalding
So, what you're saying is, don't exercise. Excellent!
9reading_fox
>8 timspalding: - slightly more accurately, if you're not eating then don't exercise! bit less fun though. Or conversely if you're exercising enough, you can eat what you like. It's the 'enough' that's the problem.
The short answer is it's complicated, and variable. I'm pretty sure hydration would be the first serious effect. after that, dunno. some you probably only need occasional traces of, and others every few days.
Why?
The short answer is it's complicated, and variable. I'm pretty sure hydration would be the first serious effect. after that, dunno. some you probably only need occasional traces of, and others every few days.
Why?
10timspalding
>9 reading_fox:
Oh, I'm just interested. I wonder whether, for example, a few days of very bland eating matters at all. But more generally it seems a basic question, and one I haven't seen discussed. I mean, you always hear "Have X servings of vegetables a day!" not "Have X servings of vegetables a" week, month, year, lifetime…
Oh, I'm just interested. I wonder whether, for example, a few days of very bland eating matters at all. But more generally it seems a basic question, and one I haven't seen discussed. I mean, you always hear "Have X servings of vegetables a day!" not "Have X servings of vegetables a" week, month, year, lifetime…
11MarthaJeanne
Everything I've seen says that the water soluble vitamins need to be replaced constantly. They go through, and eating too much of them might cause temporary problems, but they are gone very soon. Example: Vitamin C. Back when mega doses of C were 'in' you might have a few hours of the runs if you overdid it, but a day later your levels were back to normal.
Fat soluble vitamins are stored in body fat, so it takes a lot longer to deplete, but if you eat too much it can be toxic because the body takes a long time to get rid of it. The classic example here is of arctic explorers eating polar bear liver. I think E and A are the major problems here.
Fat soluble vitamins are stored in body fat, so it takes a lot longer to deplete, but if you eat too much it can be toxic because the body takes a long time to get rid of it. The classic example here is of arctic explorers eating polar bear liver. I think E and A are the major problems here.
12lesmel
>9 reading_fox: ...if you're exercising enough, you can eat what you like...
Not really accurate at all. There are multiple studies that prove people cannot out-exercise their mouths. There aren't enough hours in the day (unless exercising and eating is all you do). One exception I can think of -- hard manual labor. Generally, energy expenditure is very inefficient compared to energy consumption.
Going back to the original question, yes there are documented details for half-lifes of various nutrients. You have to hunt for them or speak with an RD.
Overall, your food/nutrient intake isn't a day by day balance. It's more like a running average.
Genetics do play a part. So does overall health (do you have all of your stomach? do you have all of your small and large intestines? do you have your gall bladder?), supplementation (iron and calcium should not be consumed together since they block absorption of each other), and environment (do you drink sodas? do you smoke? do you have caffeine? do you take medications?).
The "X servings a day" mantra is a recommendation rather than a rule of consequence. It's the same with water intake. 64 oz of water is a recommendation -- most medical people will ask you about the color of your urine at the same time they ask how much water you drink.
Maybe The Minnesota Starvation Experiment and the resulting studies would be helpful.
Not really accurate at all. There are multiple studies that prove people cannot out-exercise their mouths. There aren't enough hours in the day (unless exercising and eating is all you do). One exception I can think of -- hard manual labor. Generally, energy expenditure is very inefficient compared to energy consumption.
Going back to the original question, yes there are documented details for half-lifes of various nutrients. You have to hunt for them or speak with an RD.
Overall, your food/nutrient intake isn't a day by day balance. It's more like a running average.
Genetics do play a part. So does overall health (do you have all of your stomach? do you have all of your small and large intestines? do you have your gall bladder?), supplementation (iron and calcium should not be consumed together since they block absorption of each other), and environment (do you drink sodas? do you smoke? do you have caffeine? do you take medications?).
The "X servings a day" mantra is a recommendation rather than a rule of consequence. It's the same with water intake. 64 oz of water is a recommendation -- most medical people will ask you about the color of your urine at the same time they ask how much water you drink.
Maybe The Minnesota Starvation Experiment and the resulting studies would be helpful.
13jjwilson61
>12 lesmel: Generally, energy expenditure is very inefficient compared to energy consumption
I understand what you're saying but I don't think you put it right. Human energy expenditure is very efficient in that we get a lot of work output for each calorie input.
I understand what you're saying but I don't think you put it right. Human energy expenditure is very efficient in that we get a lot of work output for each calorie input.
14lesmel
>13 jjwilson61: I think I put it right. Comparison. We are inefficient at burning excess calories in comparison to storing excess calories. The human body wants the cheapest, fastest hit of fuel. It doesn't want to spent time and waste energy on accessing and converting stores.
15jjwilson61
Let's just say that organisms are very efficient at doing whatever it takes to keep them alive until they can reproduce.
16MaureenRoy
Everyone, I remember that US athlete Jim Fixx, author of The Book of Running, never made any changes in his (presumably omnivore) diet after becoming a marathon runner. A short time later, his sudden death was attributed to a massive heart attack. So no, I would never believe that if you exercise, you can "eat what you like."
As a nutritionist once pointed out, "No one wants anything to come between themselves and their plate." Along the same lines, US psychologist Lawrence J. Peter, PhD pointed out, "The door to motivation is locked from the inside." We are all motivated by different things. In my case, I had a near relative who died from colon cancer, and one who had a gall bladder removed, so it seemed reasonable to assume I myself might have an extra vulnerability to digestive diseases. Believing that was likely, I became interested in different approaches to a "healthy" diet ... it has been interesting.
There are some known facts about nutrition that don't get much press, not in the USA nor anywhere else. One example is that frozen green vegetables are not at all equal in nutrition to fresh greens. Their Vitamin E content is heavily damaged by freezing, and within a few weeks, is mostly destroyed. Related compounds in greens like folic acid, folate, etc. share the same vulnerability. Few in the US public are aware of this issue, since the USDA does not require Vitamin E (or related nutrient) levels to be listed on nutrition labels of packaged foods for the US market. Yet repeated US nutrition surveys show that the Vitamin E levels of US peoples are chronically low. This has apparently not always been the case, since I found part of a 1890s menu on display in a SoCal (Temecula) pioneer-style restaurant -- fresh cooked greens were a prominent part of that menu in those days.
It's hard to find an authoritative online reference on this subject, but Harvard's database is mostly adequate:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-e/
As a nutritionist once pointed out, "No one wants anything to come between themselves and their plate." Along the same lines, US psychologist Lawrence J. Peter, PhD pointed out, "The door to motivation is locked from the inside." We are all motivated by different things. In my case, I had a near relative who died from colon cancer, and one who had a gall bladder removed, so it seemed reasonable to assume I myself might have an extra vulnerability to digestive diseases. Believing that was likely, I became interested in different approaches to a "healthy" diet ... it has been interesting.
There are some known facts about nutrition that don't get much press, not in the USA nor anywhere else. One example is that frozen green vegetables are not at all equal in nutrition to fresh greens. Their Vitamin E content is heavily damaged by freezing, and within a few weeks, is mostly destroyed. Related compounds in greens like folic acid, folate, etc. share the same vulnerability. Few in the US public are aware of this issue, since the USDA does not require Vitamin E (or related nutrient) levels to be listed on nutrition labels of packaged foods for the US market. Yet repeated US nutrition surveys show that the Vitamin E levels of US peoples are chronically low. This has apparently not always been the case, since I found part of a 1890s menu on display in a SoCal (Temecula) pioneer-style restaurant -- fresh cooked greens were a prominent part of that menu in those days.
It's hard to find an authoritative online reference on this subject, but Harvard's database is mostly adequate:
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamin-e/
17DugsBooks
>16 MaureenRoy: Disappointing, I use frozen veggies in my crockpot soups - tough to find fresh ( affordable) ingredients.
Out of context maybe but wasn’t it vitamin E in vape cartridges that caused several deaths? Just shows refined “supplements “ not always the wise choice I guess.
Out of context maybe but wasn’t it vitamin E in vape cartridges that caused several deaths? Just shows refined “supplements “ not always the wise choice I guess.
18MaureenRoy
DugsBooks, thanks for your comments here. So, what exactly IS in my freezer, anyway? I'll admit to 2 kinds of Trader Joe's organic frozen pizzas, packages of tempeh, + a few packs of veggie hot dogs (a mainstay for my vegetarian fiance). For greens, I always keep some organic frozen green peas and organic frozen edamame ... for some time, I have been unable to find either of those canned in organic form, and the fiance is under doctor's orders (neurologist) to consume only organic food. That same MD also requires a high-protein diet for us, so there's also some Impossible ground "beef," "chicken nuggets," etc.
My parents were both chain smokers, so I was never attracted to any smoking/vaping products, but the supplemental form of Vitamin E is not very similar to natural Vitamin E, for reasons scientists are just beginning to learn about.
Supplements: Some are more equal than others. We are not taking much -- Vitamin D3 daily, maybe 1000-2000 IU max ... a little goes a long way, since the body efficiently stores it; Zinc (our mfr pairs it with copper, since it's important for those 2 minerals to stay in balance w/ each other); B12 - we use the highly recommended methyl form, as in methylcobalamin. For all of those, go w/ a reputable mfr -- Jarrow is one, but there are others.
Best commercial US sources of fresh greens that I know of include family-owned grocery stores (they seem to try harder on their produce departments) and any local farmers' markets in your area. You will get to know the refrigerated shelf life of fresh greens -- swiss chards and mustard greens last 7 days if you're lucky, kale + broccoli maybe 2 weeks, brussels sprouts - about the same. We went to the farmers market this morning (Calabasas in Los Angeles county), and a few people are starting to wear pandemic masks again ... very wise, since at the farmers market one is likely to have to stand shoulder to shoulder w/ many strangers around some of the fruit stands, etc. Those big boxes of washed fresh baby spinach at grocery stores are totally worth it. When I was a kid, spinach always had an off flavor ... that was the oxalic acid, an anti-nutrient, which is absent from baby spinach leaves. Just be attentive to the "use by" date ... if that's today, which sometimes happens even at the best stores, try to buy only the quantity you will use today or tomorrow. *Every* time our family eats a generous-sized serving of steamed baby spinach, we get high quality sleep that night.
I have one of the world's larger cookbook collections, and too many recipes that use greens (I'm looking at you, soul food cookbooks) recommend way too much cooking time. Just practice steaming green vegetables on their own once or twice + you will understand the actual needed cooking minutes. Any cookbooks from the Moosewood series are pretty reliable on that type of data, and there are others. (Example: 3 minutes of steaming for raw baby spinach is plenty, and 2 minutes is adequate for some types of meal preparation, such as making sandwiches or homemade lasagna building.)
My parents were both chain smokers, so I was never attracted to any smoking/vaping products, but the supplemental form of Vitamin E is not very similar to natural Vitamin E, for reasons scientists are just beginning to learn about.
Supplements: Some are more equal than others. We are not taking much -- Vitamin D3 daily, maybe 1000-2000 IU max ... a little goes a long way, since the body efficiently stores it; Zinc (our mfr pairs it with copper, since it's important for those 2 minerals to stay in balance w/ each other); B12 - we use the highly recommended methyl form, as in methylcobalamin. For all of those, go w/ a reputable mfr -- Jarrow is one, but there are others.
Best commercial US sources of fresh greens that I know of include family-owned grocery stores (they seem to try harder on their produce departments) and any local farmers' markets in your area. You will get to know the refrigerated shelf life of fresh greens -- swiss chards and mustard greens last 7 days if you're lucky, kale + broccoli maybe 2 weeks, brussels sprouts - about the same. We went to the farmers market this morning (Calabasas in Los Angeles county), and a few people are starting to wear pandemic masks again ... very wise, since at the farmers market one is likely to have to stand shoulder to shoulder w/ many strangers around some of the fruit stands, etc. Those big boxes of washed fresh baby spinach at grocery stores are totally worth it. When I was a kid, spinach always had an off flavor ... that was the oxalic acid, an anti-nutrient, which is absent from baby spinach leaves. Just be attentive to the "use by" date ... if that's today, which sometimes happens even at the best stores, try to buy only the quantity you will use today or tomorrow. *Every* time our family eats a generous-sized serving of steamed baby spinach, we get high quality sleep that night.
I have one of the world's larger cookbook collections, and too many recipes that use greens (I'm looking at you, soul food cookbooks) recommend way too much cooking time. Just practice steaming green vegetables on their own once or twice + you will understand the actual needed cooking minutes. Any cookbooks from the Moosewood series are pretty reliable on that type of data, and there are others. (Example: 3 minutes of steaming for raw baby spinach is plenty, and 2 minutes is adequate for some types of meal preparation, such as making sandwiches or homemade lasagna building.)
19MaureenRoy
Newly published, a peer-reviewed journal article finds that small wasabi "pills" (.8 mg per pill) result in improved short-term and long-term human memory:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-volunteers-wasabi-short-long-term-memory....
I will have to check with the pharmacist at a regional homeopathic pharmacy, but I have never heard of wasabi being available in supplement form, at least not in the USA. Wasabi paste is that green blob of condiment provided on plates at US restaurants that serve sushi. Note: US restaurants almost always serve fake wasabi sauce, due to the extreme rarity of true wasabi. Fake wasabi is made with horseradish root ... horseradish root has the same source of chemical heat as wasabi ... also red radishes and mustard greens are in that plant family.
While I look for that information, my family + I are consuming foods daily related to the wasabi plant. Those include red radishes and horseradish. What about nettles or even watercress? I will have to look up information on the extent of the wasabi plant family.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-volunteers-wasabi-short-long-term-memory....
I will have to check with the pharmacist at a regional homeopathic pharmacy, but I have never heard of wasabi being available in supplement form, at least not in the USA. Wasabi paste is that green blob of condiment provided on plates at US restaurants that serve sushi. Note: US restaurants almost always serve fake wasabi sauce, due to the extreme rarity of true wasabi. Fake wasabi is made with horseradish root ... horseradish root has the same source of chemical heat as wasabi ... also red radishes and mustard greens are in that plant family.
While I look for that information, my family + I are consuming foods daily related to the wasabi plant. Those include red radishes and horseradish. What about nettles or even watercress? I will have to look up information on the extent of the wasabi plant family.
20MaureenRoy
It's time to review what foods you are buying that may contain added niacin (vitamin B3). New research published in the journal Nature shows that excess B3 creates inflammation in the human cardiovascular system, a precursor to cardiovascular disease:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02793-8
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1759621464721146274/photo/1
If you have supplemental B3 in your possession, as my husband does, throw it out. In the USA, B3 has previously been added to foods such as flour, breads, and cereal. I buy only Bob's Red Mill flour, which contains no additives. Independent natural foods stores sell oatmeal and quick oatmeal in bulk that has no additives.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-023-02793-8
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1759621464721146274/photo/1
If you have supplemental B3 in your possession, as my husband does, throw it out. In the USA, B3 has previously been added to foods such as flour, breads, and cereal. I buy only Bob's Red Mill flour, which contains no additives. Independent natural foods stores sell oatmeal and quick oatmeal in bulk that has no additives.
21MaureenRoy
Be aware of the following study if, like me. you drink artificially sweetened soda pop:
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-790924
Our family members take a multivitamin daily (one vendor sells them in gummie form -- 2 gummies are the daily dosage). Gummies are easier to chew/swallow than pills or capsules for our family member with Parkinson's disease.
We also consume some form of leafy greens most days (kale, mustard greens, bok choy and the like), containing folate and minerals otherwise hard to find in Western diets. No atrial fibrillation for us elders so far.
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-790924
Our family members take a multivitamin daily (one vendor sells them in gummie form -- 2 gummies are the daily dosage). Gummies are easier to chew/swallow than pills or capsules for our family member with Parkinson's disease.
We also consume some form of leafy greens most days (kale, mustard greens, bok choy and the like), containing folate and minerals otherwise hard to find in Western diets. No atrial fibrillation for us elders so far.
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