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1Irisheyz77
In 1997 a small little book, Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s (Sorcerer’s) Stone hit the shelves of England and soon became a world wide phenomenon. The story about a boy wizard going off to a wizarding school just really touched the hearts of millions - people of all ages. What few people don’t know is that six years before another book about a boy wizard going off to wizarding school was released. That book was called Wizard’s Hall (WH) and was written by Jane Yolen. Since the success of the Harry Potter (HP) series Yolen has made some not so subtle remarks that Rowling has ripped off her idea. I had never heard of Yolen’s book until recently during a comparison between Journal of the Curious Letters and the first HP book. The mention made me curious so when I saw that a copy of WH was available I snapped it up.
Both books deal with an 11 year old boy who goes off to wizarding school and both have similar names, Henry and Harry. How each of them get there is different. Henry (later renamed as Thornmallow) comes home one day and says that he wants to be a wizard and so his mother sends him off to Wizard’s Hall. Harry (after many attempts) receives a letter saying that he’s been chosen to go to Hogwart’s. Henry almost immediately regrets his words and would have returned home if he’d been allowed (the path to the school only let him go forward). Harry on the other hand couldn’t leave the Dursley’s fast enough. Both boys have some sort of mark on their face. For Harry it’s the infamous lightning bolt scar. Thornmallow has a smudge on his nose that never really seems to go away. There seems to be no purpose to the smudge and I think that its meant to be humorous, but really doesn’t add anything to the story. Harry’s scar on the other hand has a purpose. It is part of what makes Harry who and what he is. Some of the wizarding classes that each boy had also had similar names/purposes. For example, WH has transformations and spelling while HP has transfiguration and charms. Another similarity is that both stories have an evil wizard who wants revenge and both schools fall under attack by some sort of beast. For HP it was a troll and in WH it was a beast that was created by the evil wizard. Both creatures are stopped through the efforts of the boy wizard. A final similarity is that both books have pictures that are capable of moving and speaking.
Reading the two stories you can see many similarities. However, I don’t think that Yolen’s claims are based on anything but jealousy that her wizarding school wasn’t as compelling a read as Rowling’s. Yolen’s book is geared toward children. Its writing is very simple and the underlying theme/moral that one must always try his/her best is stated over and over and over again. It seemed like every other paragraph one character or another was saying it or Thornmallow was thinking it. As an adult reading the story I found that repetitiveness to be annoying. The Harry Potter books were also primarily written for children but Rowling never talked down to her audience. She never saw the need to brow beat her audience with the themes of love, friendship and the courage to overcome any obstacle. Instead she let the actions of her characters and the narrative show all that.
I found WH to have very little depth, character development or plot to it. Because of its shortness everything happened so quickly and the story was over before it really had a chance to begin. HP had a slow and steady build. When WH ends I was glad that it was over. Glad that it was short and that I didn’t waste much time on it. HP left me wanting more from the first page on. The story was engaging and the characters had depth. I felt that they were real. That Hogwarts was real. Wizard’s Hall always had a feel of fakeness to it and had some absurdities – like boys could only walk down a hallway left and girls right. It bordered on the ridiculous.
There is another book, published in 1983, about a thirteen year old girl who finds a book in the library one day while she’s hiding from bullies. The book is called So You Want to be a Wizard and is the start of a series about her journey in learning to become a wizard. Kids like the idea of wizards. They like the idea that there is a book or a school out there where they can train to be one. It’s not a new idea. The fact that Yolen seems to think that she has claims on it is ridiculous. Yes, some of the similarities of the books are eerily similar. But nothing in Rowling’s book is new. Everything in her books had its origins somewhere else. She just put them together in a slightly different way than others had. It’s also not inconceivable that two people, miles and years apart would also come up with similar ideas. It happens in real life. It’s happened in the scientific field quite often, so I’m not surprised that it happened in the literary one as well. This probably isn’t the first time two books had a lot in common and if definitely won’t be the last.
Both books deal with an 11 year old boy who goes off to wizarding school and both have similar names, Henry and Harry. How each of them get there is different. Henry (later renamed as Thornmallow) comes home one day and says that he wants to be a wizard and so his mother sends him off to Wizard’s Hall. Harry (after many attempts) receives a letter saying that he’s been chosen to go to Hogwart’s. Henry almost immediately regrets his words and would have returned home if he’d been allowed (the path to the school only let him go forward). Harry on the other hand couldn’t leave the Dursley’s fast enough. Both boys have some sort of mark on their face. For Harry it’s the infamous lightning bolt scar. Thornmallow has a smudge on his nose that never really seems to go away. There seems to be no purpose to the smudge and I think that its meant to be humorous, but really doesn’t add anything to the story. Harry’s scar on the other hand has a purpose. It is part of what makes Harry who and what he is. Some of the wizarding classes that each boy had also had similar names/purposes. For example, WH has transformations and spelling while HP has transfiguration and charms. Another similarity is that both stories have an evil wizard who wants revenge and both schools fall under attack by some sort of beast. For HP it was a troll and in WH it was a beast that was created by the evil wizard. Both creatures are stopped through the efforts of the boy wizard. A final similarity is that both books have pictures that are capable of moving and speaking.
Reading the two stories you can see many similarities. However, I don’t think that Yolen’s claims are based on anything but jealousy that her wizarding school wasn’t as compelling a read as Rowling’s. Yolen’s book is geared toward children. Its writing is very simple and the underlying theme/moral that one must always try his/her best is stated over and over and over again. It seemed like every other paragraph one character or another was saying it or Thornmallow was thinking it. As an adult reading the story I found that repetitiveness to be annoying. The Harry Potter books were also primarily written for children but Rowling never talked down to her audience. She never saw the need to brow beat her audience with the themes of love, friendship and the courage to overcome any obstacle. Instead she let the actions of her characters and the narrative show all that.
I found WH to have very little depth, character development or plot to it. Because of its shortness everything happened so quickly and the story was over before it really had a chance to begin. HP had a slow and steady build. When WH ends I was glad that it was over. Glad that it was short and that I didn’t waste much time on it. HP left me wanting more from the first page on. The story was engaging and the characters had depth. I felt that they were real. That Hogwarts was real. Wizard’s Hall always had a feel of fakeness to it and had some absurdities – like boys could only walk down a hallway left and girls right. It bordered on the ridiculous.
There is another book, published in 1983, about a thirteen year old girl who finds a book in the library one day while she’s hiding from bullies. The book is called So You Want to be a Wizard and is the start of a series about her journey in learning to become a wizard. Kids like the idea of wizards. They like the idea that there is a book or a school out there where they can train to be one. It’s not a new idea. The fact that Yolen seems to think that she has claims on it is ridiculous. Yes, some of the similarities of the books are eerily similar. But nothing in Rowling’s book is new. Everything in her books had its origins somewhere else. She just put them together in a slightly different way than others had. It’s also not inconceivable that two people, miles and years apart would also come up with similar ideas. It happens in real life. It’s happened in the scientific field quite often, so I’m not surprised that it happened in the literary one as well. This probably isn’t the first time two books had a lot in common and if definitely won’t be the last.
2Irisheyz77
That was a little long....sorry about that.
ETA: If anyone else would like to read Wizard's Hall then let me know. Otherwise I'll be placing the book back up on BookMooch because for me its not a keeper.
ETA: If anyone else would like to read Wizard's Hall then let me know. Otherwise I'll be placing the book back up on BookMooch because for me its not a keeper.
3elbakerone
Thanks for the comparison and don't worry about the length. I think you brought up a lot of interesting points. It was definitely presumptuous of Yolen to make the claim that she did against Rowling. I've read some other books by Yolen and I don't remember much of the talking down that you mentioned so that could explain why this one was not one of her most popular works.
I was wanting to read Wizard's Hall when it was first mentioned, but now I don't know that it's really worth the spot on my ever-growing TBR list.
I was wanting to read Wizard's Hall when it was first mentioned, but now I don't know that it's really worth the spot on my ever-growing TBR list.
4Irisheyz77
its really really short elbakerone and goes by quickly. I read it in just over an hour....probably couldn't have done it quicker but it was early in the AM and I was savoring my coffee and the music playing on my iPod as I read.
This quote by Yolen also cracks me up a little:
"I read the first three. The fourth one stopped me in my tracks, partially because even though the story moves along, I just don't feel like they're well written."
So essentially it takes her 4 Harry Potter books for her to realize the full similarities that she is "stopped in her tracks" and then has to say that she doesn't think they're well written. Yes HP isn't award winning writing but at least Rowling doesn't say the same phrase over and over. That to me is bad writing. If you always need to repeat your message then you obviously don't have any confidence in your own abilities. Again I just think that she is jealous over the success of Harry potter. She also didn't think that her book was all that great to consider turning it into a series. She passed on it, Rowling didn't. It's Yolen's loss.
This quote by Yolen also cracks me up a little:
"I read the first three. The fourth one stopped me in my tracks, partially because even though the story moves along, I just don't feel like they're well written."
So essentially it takes her 4 Harry Potter books for her to realize the full similarities that she is "stopped in her tracks" and then has to say that she doesn't think they're well written. Yes HP isn't award winning writing but at least Rowling doesn't say the same phrase over and over. That to me is bad writing. If you always need to repeat your message then you obviously don't have any confidence in your own abilities. Again I just think that she is jealous over the success of Harry potter. She also didn't think that her book was all that great to consider turning it into a series. She passed on it, Rowling didn't. It's Yolen's loss.
5margad
No worries about length, Irisheyz, when you make your case so clearly and in such a well-argued, interesting way!
I've heard newbie writers complain sometimes that someone else has "stolen" their ideas. Writing teachers and workshop presenters wisely point out that an idea cannot be copyrighted. Novels are about life, and life presents us with a range of problems and challenges that human beings share. The longing for magical powers to overcome our human limitations goes back to prehistory. In most modern societies, children share the experience of going to school to learn the skills they will need as adults. It would be strange if more than one author did not independently come up with the idea to blend these experiences in a book about children going to school to learn about magic.
I've been reading the Harry Potter books for the first time, having received the boxed set for Christmas. One of the things I admire about them is that Potter does not take a simplistic, one-note theme and blow it out of proportion. Our Western society stresses achievement to an unhealthy extent, and Yolen's theme does not sound especially healthy to me. Yes, it's useful for people to believe in themselves and pursue worthwhile goals steadily over time without giving up the first time they run into an obstacle. But it may not be appropriate to always try one's best. Sometimes it's useful to step back and re-evaluate things rather than blindly continue pursuing a goal that may not actually be good for us. Sometimes it's useful to realize that it's okay (in fact, inevitable!) not to be the best at everything, and to make our peace with being good enough.
One of the things I really like about the Harry Potter books is the level of maturity in Rowling's outlook. Throughout the series, the reader knows Harry is destined for greatness, but he is never the brightest student academically and often makes mistakes. He overcomes these not so much by striving to try his best at everything, but by discovering (oh so painfully) that even the wisest of his mentors can make mistakes, and learning to accept and forgive not just others but also himself. In Rowling's work, the focus is not on striving to be the best, but on learning to understand and care for others and become part of a loving community. Perhaps Yolen's jealousy of Rowling's success is a reflection of the central fallacy in the theme of Wizard's Hall - striving to always try our best (to be the best) is ultimately a hollow goal.
I've heard newbie writers complain sometimes that someone else has "stolen" their ideas. Writing teachers and workshop presenters wisely point out that an idea cannot be copyrighted. Novels are about life, and life presents us with a range of problems and challenges that human beings share. The longing for magical powers to overcome our human limitations goes back to prehistory. In most modern societies, children share the experience of going to school to learn the skills they will need as adults. It would be strange if more than one author did not independently come up with the idea to blend these experiences in a book about children going to school to learn about magic.
I've been reading the Harry Potter books for the first time, having received the boxed set for Christmas. One of the things I admire about them is that Potter does not take a simplistic, one-note theme and blow it out of proportion. Our Western society stresses achievement to an unhealthy extent, and Yolen's theme does not sound especially healthy to me. Yes, it's useful for people to believe in themselves and pursue worthwhile goals steadily over time without giving up the first time they run into an obstacle. But it may not be appropriate to always try one's best. Sometimes it's useful to step back and re-evaluate things rather than blindly continue pursuing a goal that may not actually be good for us. Sometimes it's useful to realize that it's okay (in fact, inevitable!) not to be the best at everything, and to make our peace with being good enough.
One of the things I really like about the Harry Potter books is the level of maturity in Rowling's outlook. Throughout the series, the reader knows Harry is destined for greatness, but he is never the brightest student academically and often makes mistakes. He overcomes these not so much by striving to try his best at everything, but by discovering (oh so painfully) that even the wisest of his mentors can make mistakes, and learning to accept and forgive not just others but also himself. In Rowling's work, the focus is not on striving to be the best, but on learning to understand and care for others and become part of a loving community. Perhaps Yolen's jealousy of Rowling's success is a reflection of the central fallacy in the theme of Wizard's Hall - striving to always try our best (to be the best) is ultimately a hollow goal.
6annakarina
The "wizarding school" is a recurring theme in british children's literature as it is - off the top of my head, I can cite the Diana Wynne Jones "Chrestomanci" series (sp), and the "Worst Witch" series for younger readers (can't remember author, sorry, but was a big fan as a kid).
There's nothing very original about JK's plots or characterisation, but there's nothing wrong with that - the fact that they draw on so many different well-loved sources is one of the reasons children appreciate them so much.
Haven't read Yolen (or heard of her before now) but can't imagine she's got much of a case.
There's nothing very original about JK's plots or characterisation, but there's nothing wrong with that - the fact that they draw on so many different well-loved sources is one of the reasons children appreciate them so much.
Haven't read Yolen (or heard of her before now) but can't imagine she's got much of a case.
7melannen
Irishey - Wizard's Hall is a very different *style* of book than Harry Potter. The things you're complaining about - the pace and length, the repetition, the very obvious moral - are all part of it being abook for early elementary school, rather than early middle school, like Harry Potter. Also, especially the repetition and the moralizing are part of the style of a mock-fairy tale, which is very much what Wizard's Hall was intended as, whereas HP mashes a bunch of genres together.
I actually though that Wizard's Hall was much better in terms of creating a genuine sense of mystery and wonder, in having a tighter plot, and in terms creating lifelike characters from their first introduction. (Rowling's characters become complex eventually, but for the first few hundred pages they usually come off as flat sterotypes in a way that Yolen's never do.)
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in simple, fairy-tale style books, Wizard's Hall isn't going to do much, where as Harry Potter is so complex, long, and it's a mix of so many different kinds of story that it seems like there's something for everyone.
(The Young Wizards books, on the other hand, are just plain awesome.)
I actually though that Wizard's Hall was much better in terms of creating a genuine sense of mystery and wonder, in having a tighter plot, and in terms creating lifelike characters from their first introduction. (Rowling's characters become complex eventually, but for the first few hundred pages they usually come off as flat sterotypes in a way that Yolen's never do.)
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in simple, fairy-tale style books, Wizard's Hall isn't going to do much, where as Harry Potter is so complex, long, and it's a mix of so many different kinds of story that it seems like there's something for everyone.
(The Young Wizards books, on the other hand, are just plain awesome.)
8Irisheyz77
Melannen - both WH and HP were written for the same age group 8-13.
I don't think that the plot for WH was tight at all. Thornmallow shows up at the school attends a day of classes, spends 1/2 a day in the library and is then able to defeat the big bad. Doing this after everyone around him....including the great wizards all fail. It wasn't plausible. At least not for me. I thought that everything was too rushed and as a result the whole story had an unpolished feel.
Yes HP too a little bit more to get into. There was that slow build that is common in a book series. Rowling took the time to develop her world and her characters instead of rushing things.
I don't mind simple stories and read many of them. But this one was overly simplified and it is not something that I would have enjoyed even when I was in the the 8 to 13 range. There was something so artificial about WH. HP just seemed to have better grounding and seemed more real to me.
Years ago I read Yolen's Briar Rose, which is another book written for young teens. I found this book be fairly well written with a new twist on an old fairy tale. I think that she was lazy with WH, she published 3 books that year and I don't think that she spent the time that she could have to make WH into a great novel. It had potential. But IMO it didn't live up.
I don't think that the plot for WH was tight at all. Thornmallow shows up at the school attends a day of classes, spends 1/2 a day in the library and is then able to defeat the big bad. Doing this after everyone around him....including the great wizards all fail. It wasn't plausible. At least not for me. I thought that everything was too rushed and as a result the whole story had an unpolished feel.
Yes HP too a little bit more to get into. There was that slow build that is common in a book series. Rowling took the time to develop her world and her characters instead of rushing things.
I don't mind simple stories and read many of them. But this one was overly simplified and it is not something that I would have enjoyed even when I was in the the 8 to 13 range. There was something so artificial about WH. HP just seemed to have better grounding and seemed more real to me.
Years ago I read Yolen's Briar Rose, which is another book written for young teens. I found this book be fairly well written with a new twist on an old fairy tale. I think that she was lazy with WH, she published 3 books that year and I don't think that she spent the time that she could have to make WH into a great novel. It had potential. But IMO it didn't live up.
9elbakerone
I know I read a bunch of Jane Yolen as a young adult but the only one that really stands out to me is The Devil's Arithmetic - which still ranks as one of the best YA books I've ever read. I'll second the fact that it's not a question of her writing talent but more her handling of the WH story.
10margad
Melannen #7 - you make a great point about the difference in style. It makes me think Yolen should not worry so much about the similarities that do exist between her book and the Harry Potter series. It sounds like they appeal to a quite different group of readers.
11desultory
Annakarina (#6) is dead right. I read one of the Chrestomanci novels, and it is very like HP. And, to be gratuitously controversial about it, a damn sight better written too.
Still, there's no denying that (somehow) JKR got the Zeitgeist just right. Lucky her.
Still, there's no denying that (somehow) JKR got the Zeitgeist just right. Lucky her.
12jfoster_sf
i never knew that jane yolen said that- JK Rowling not well written?? if it wasn't well written then why did she read 4 books before deciding that. it always makes me mad that fantasies don't win many awards (at least the newberry).
15melannen
Hey mjreads, if you check the dates on the messages, none of the original commenters have spoken up for over a year. Some of them may not even be on the site any more, so I don't think you'll have much luck getting them to reply.
Also "ad hominem" attacks on other LT users - saying things like "you disgust me" - are considered quite rude on this site, which is another reason you're probably not getting anyone else to discuss things with you.
I happen to think that Jane Yolen is better at the writer's craft than J. K. Rowling, but I also think her remarks on Harry Potter were a bit unprofessional. I don't blame her for feeling the way she did, because the similarities are startling in some ways, but she'd have been far wiser to take the high road, at least in public.
(The full quote is here in her wikipedia article, by the way. She pretty clearly says that she'd be willing to believe JKR stole the idea from her specifically - that's what the "cashing the check" bit is about. That's kind of passive-aggressive to say unless you're actually willing to start legal proceedings.)
Also "ad hominem" attacks on other LT users - saying things like "you disgust me" - are considered quite rude on this site, which is another reason you're probably not getting anyone else to discuss things with you.
I happen to think that Jane Yolen is better at the writer's craft than J. K. Rowling, but I also think her remarks on Harry Potter were a bit unprofessional. I don't blame her for feeling the way she did, because the similarities are startling in some ways, but she'd have been far wiser to take the high road, at least in public.
(The full quote is here in her wikipedia article, by the way. She pretty clearly says that she'd be willing to believe JKR stole the idea from her specifically - that's what the "cashing the check" bit is about. That's kind of passive-aggressive to say unless you're actually willing to start legal proceedings.)
