Order of the Phoenix chapters 5-8 discussion

Here we go! This week's chapters are:

5: The Order of the Phoenix
6: The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black
7: The Ministry of Magic
8: The Hearing

Talk, talk, talk!

Okay I'm at work so I can't pull out my book or notes so I'm going to have to try to remember my issues by memory. I've never quite been able to figure out why Sirius refers to (SPOILER ahead) the Prophecy as a weapon. I guess knowledge is power blah, blah, blah, but really, that ship has pretty much sailed by this time...okay, maybe that's more a discussion for later on, but I still disagree with the term weapon! (end SPOILER).

I could just fall back to my favorite pasttime of harping on the movie! I remember being pretty disappointed by the scene where everything gets explained, they didn't even send Ginny to bed did they? Also what was up with the "tapestry" what they show is soooo not what is in my head!

Okay...I know I have way more to talk about...give me a few minutes to collect my thoughts.

Okay, how about that ministry. I will say again, that the ministry in the movie wasn't at all like the ministry I pictured...however, I thought that huge portrait of Fudge was genius! It did for me what I believe was intended and conjured images of Lenin, Mussolini, and Mao Tse-Tung. It definitely made Fudge seem like a much more devious character than he had ever seemed before. What does everyone else think?

Also, does the whole trial time-change thing bother anyone else? I guess I'm so used to a democratic system with the checks and balances but how is that even legal? In the muggle world it would be an instant appeal if something like that was pulled!

Yes, in the muggle world you can't change a hearing without proper notice, and it is totally appealable, but Harry won, so the point is moot.

Anyhoo. I also pictured the ministry differently, but I like the way they did it in the movie. SPOILER Didn't like that the statue didn't help in the end END OF SPOILER. The giant picture of Fudge was brilliant. I find it ironic that the powers that be are publicly in denial of evil, when IRL leaders often hype up the enemy's supposed power or imminent attack. This book was written post-911, and although it flips that detail, it shows.

I had stuff I was going to say about the statue, but I guess I'll wait until we get there in the book. I was pretty disappointed in it's overall look, in fact...didn't they have several statues in the movie instead of one big one? I probably should suck it up and buy the movie so I can remember better why I'm complaining!

I love the Hearing because it makes me so mad. I think one of the reasons this book is my favorite is because it evokes so many emotions...I cry, laugh out loud, and occasionally feel like throwing the book across the room (Umbridge!) I love when a book, movie, or TV show gives me the opportunity to run through the gamut of human emotion. Plus I just love to hate Umbridge. I think she makes it easier than any other character becuase we don't know any back story to her, so I don't have to feel bad for her. My liberal guilt doesn't say "Yeah shes horrible but look at her childhood..." She's one of the few one-dimensional characters in the HP world and I think that it was done purposely. What does everyone else say?

JKR seems to delight in characatures of all kinds of teachers. You have the clueless (Binns, Quirrel), the incompetent (Lockhart), the out of touch (Trewlawney), the scary and unnecessarily harsh (Snape, Umbridge), the eccessively jovial (Slughorn), the well-meaning and well-liked but basically useless (Hagrid), and even the well-prepared, well-liked and effective (Lupin). Anyone who has ever gone to school has sat in classes with these people.

Yes, I do think not humanizing Umbridge was a purposeful decision. And it works.

Grrrr....I've been trying to put into words what I want to say for an hour now and it's not working! I'll try again later or wait for someone else to post something that I can reply to.

So, any thoughts why the hearing was suddenly earlier then originally planned? I say: Umbridge.

I always thought that was all Fudge. He would never take the step of sending the Dementors like Umbridge, but I think once he discovered that he could get Harry out, he was going to do everything he could to make sure that happened. I also think making it the entire Wizengamot and opening a courtroom that hadn't been used in years was all him. He's a total opportunist!

Couple of things I jotted down in the margins:

On pge 87 (US ed.), Sirius is the first one to bring up Harry asking questions about Voldy. Instigator! (I love him.)

Regulus Black is not in the movie!

Ron gets caught in some purple robes...foreshadowing for SPOILER the brains?

Sirius isn't the only one that's mean to Kreacher. He's pretty difficult & despicable. They really don't do enough with him in the movie (especially SPOILER Harry not contacting him and having him lie about Sirius! Ugh I hate that being left out.)

Sorry about all the spoilers. I suck.

#2 -- I agree about Sirius and the "weapon." That never makes complete sense. I also agree that the tapestry was nothing like how it was in my head. One of the nitpicky details that bothered me was that, in the movie, Phineas Nigelius had been zapped off the tapestry, whereas in the book, he was one of the Blacks that the family had been proud of.

#3 -- About the time of the trial: I think that the Wizarding way of doing things is less formal in some ways, because it's a smaller community. I think that it's very bureaucratic, but I think there are less limitations on the power of high officials. I mean, you can look at Umbridge, later in the book, for an example. On the flip side, you can look at the power that Dumbledore has always had at Hogwarts. I'm not sure if I'm saying this clearly, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

#4 -- The first time I went to see the movie in the theater, the friend I was with was livid about your spoiler!

#5 -- Yes, Umbridge is one-dimensional. I also think it's interesting that (SPOILER) she's not at any point overtly aligned with Voldemort, though their agendas pretty much match up. She's just mean. (end SPOILER)

#6 -- And you forgot the brisk, efficient, but not particularly likeable (Grubbly-Plank). ;-)

#8 -- I think it was Fudge, the scumball. Umbridge took her cues from him. I'm sure that when Fudge was being fatherly and protective toward Harry in books 3 and 4, if we had seen Umbridge then, she would have been overly sweet and pleasant to Harry. Correlation: Umbridge is to Fudge as Bellatrix is to Voldemort? What do you think?

#10 -- Yeah, Kreacher is hard to like, and even Hermione has a hard time being nice to him, I think, though she wants to be nice to him, as he is an Oppressed House-Elf. Lesson for Hermione: social causes are pretty much always like this. You will have the touchingly grateful (Dobby), the unappreciative though needy (Winky), and the downright unpleasant (Kreacher). And everything in between. (I've been there.)

I don't think anyone knew what the "weapon" was, did they?

I think in the movie they have Sirius saying that Voldy wants "something he didn't get last time" and Harry say, "like a weapon" instead of Sirius. This makes people think they're just talking about Voldy wanting to kill Harry.

I never really understood what having the prophecy itself was supposed to give Voldy. He already knew what it said. And it had already happened, pretty much.

13> *SPOILER* It's explained at the end of the book that he didn't hear the whole prophecy

But he didn't really miss anything important. That wasn't obvious.

*SPOILER* But he didn't know that what he missed wasn't important. He just knows that when he tried to kill Harry the first time something happened that he couldn't explain and maybe he thought that the prophecy would explain it so he could know how to kill Harry in the future.

I agree, if I were LV, I would want to hear the whole thing, I've never had a problem with that, I had just always disagreed with the term "weapon" but polly brings up a good point.

#12 Now that I think about it, you might be right. The order was guarding it, and I always just assumed that they knew what it was they were guarding...but (SPOILER) events in subsequent books; i.e. all the "chosen one" rumors do start to make me wonder if all DD said was "guard the department of mysteries there's something in there Voldy wants". Does anyone remember where in the Department of Mysteries Mr. Weasley was when he was attacked? (end SPOILER)

#11 I'd forgotten about Phineas Nigellus being blasted off the WALLPAPER (sorry, not yelling at you, but the filmmakers!) in the movie. I got some gift cards for my birthday...maybe I'll use that to get the movie, pretend someone else gave it to me and then I won't feel like I wasted my own money on a movie I hate...

#10 After seeing the movie one of the first things I thought was why did they even bother putting Kreacher in at all? Then of course DH came out.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Dung wasn't in this movie either so what I'm wondering is...(SPOILER) how are they going to deal with the locket in the DH movie(s)?! (end SPOILER)

Yes, Voldy wouldn't know the last bit of the prophecy, but having learned it, what would it signify? (To use 19th century diction. Sorry.) It's nothing he doesn't already know.

But DD was the one who heard the prophecy. If there was a reason to guard it, which I can't see, he would be telling the Order to do so.

Okay, I just understood what you're saying! DD really doesn't do much that makes sense in this book! The only thing I can think of is that the Order behaving like there was something important and protecting it distracted LV. (SPOILER) If he had been able to get it earlier (which of course he couldn't anyway because of the whole he or Harry having to get it down thing) then he would have bumped up the timing of the war considerably. (end SPOILER) Whether that was DD's reasoning behind an unreasonable action we may never know.

SPOILERIFFIC You know, if Harry is the only one who can get it down, wouldn't it be simpler to explain everything to Harry? They wouldn't even necessarily have to tell him exactly what it said, just that he's the only one who could get it down and Voldy is after it. Seems simple, really.

And c'mon....why were they making such a big deal about keeping "the truth" from Harry? Like he doesn't already know that Voldy is after him. It's a simple step to it being a fight to the death.

More reasons this is my least favourite book...sigh...

Another thought....why not get Harry to get it down and then destroy it? I mean, DD heard it and everyone in the Order already knows what it says anyway. A life could have been saved. I just don't get it.

Yep, you're right. This is still my favorite but I suppose it could be subtitled: Dumbledore's an Idiot. (Please don't start posting hate messages for that, I simply mean in this book he doesn't do much that makes sense!)

Well remember that Dumbledore hiumself admits that in the end that he had protected Harry so much that Harry didn't have all the knowledge he needed. that he ,DD cared to much for harry and wanted him to be safe and happy

The N and most A house of Black. I had a great time reading this part of the book, just like an old house would be, full of dust and relics and ...er...insects and um rodents. I envisioned the whole thing alot different from the movie so I prefer my version.

I think that's why I haven't loved any of the movies (I like most of them okay) but I have a movie of my own that plays in my head as I read each of the books, and those are my preferred versions. I will admit that some of the movies have crept their way into my head movie; Harry looks like Dan, Hermione looks like Emma; and Snape sounds like Alan Rickman (he doesn't look like him though...don't get me wrong, I loooooovvvveee Alan (yay Colenol Brandon!) but he's too old and broad chested to be the Snape of my head.) Basically I use the movies for a HP quick fix...when I'm jonesing for Hogwarts but don't have the time to read a whole book (when I start one I have trouble stopping...)

SPOILER AHEAD: Every time I've read this book after DH (yep, it's been multiple times already) I'm struck by the mention of the locket...it doesn't even get a whole sentence. It's simply part of a list of weird stuff they find and yet I remember it as being much bigger.

Actually that kind of goes along with the whole movie-in-the-head thing. Because JKR's prose so easily lends itself to creating a visual image for me, every word gets heightened and the things that are small if you simply look at the page become magnified by the image. Does that make sense? Does anyone else read these books this way? Or am I crazy?!

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT: 20 LG I hadn't thought of that, why not just have Harry destroy the prophecy? That would have solved a lot of problems. It may have been hard to get him into the Department of Mysteries, though. On the other hand, he might have a right to a prophecy about himself.

Okay How about the ministry hearing. was the minister acting on his own or did Umbridge have control of him?

I think it was Fudge's idea. Umbridge is just a syncophant.

I think the minister was just really clueless about Umbridge. He seemed to have been looking for an excuse to get rid of Harry. Fudge got terribly paranoid.

but why? why did fudge want Harry gone?

because Harry was the one who saw Voldy and Fudge was trying to pretend he wasn't back.

#27 I don't know if I would call Umbridge a syncophant. It was her afterall (SPOILER) who sent the Dementors after Harry in the first place and Fudge had no idea (end SPOILER) That said I think Fudge definitely then did take advantage of the situation to mess with Harry.

#31 -- I think she did it because she thought it was what Fudge wanted, though. She knew that he wouldn't do it, but that he wanted it done . . . so she did it. And yes, he took advantage of the situation. Neither of them are nice people! ;-)

Do we know for sure that Fudge didn't know? He expressed surprise in the hearing, but he could have been lying.

Either way, she was trying to win favour with the ministry admininstration. MORE SPOILERAGE And it worked. Do we really think Fudge didn't know she sent the dementors when he made her High Inquisitor?

Is it even possible to discuss this book without spoilage?

I think we need a warning on the group page

*WARNING, if you have not read all 7 books, watch out for flying spoilers*

It is getting pretty tedious writing spoiler so often. I was going by something Umbridge says later...during the trip into the forest I think that Fucge had no idea. At that point I don't think she really has any reason to lie.

What I wonder is how much and what she believes. (I'm just talking for this book now, not DH). Do you think she truly believes Harry is horrible? I mean in the way Fudge wants him to be, obviously she'd have issues with his "half-breed" friendships but if she truly thought that he was all things they try to make him out to be than she wouldn't have had to send the Dementors in the first place.

I vote for some sort of overall SPOILER notice. Lurk at your own risk!

Group page spoiler warning: consider it done!

I think that the original idea (if I can remember that far back) was that the group read would be accessible even to first-time readers. In reality, I don't think we've had those. And, as LG said on another thread, this far after the release of the seventh book, if someone is hanging around a HP site who hasn't read the books, they can't blame the "regulars" for a bit of spoilerage.

#24 biblio: re the lcoket:
Same thing for me.

#34 rissa:
That's probably a very good idea.

*reads #36*
Oh, good! :)

I agree - enter at your own risk. Pre 07/21 many of us began disappearing till our reading of DH for such a reason.

I'm having an odd experience reading OotP this time around. Normally it's all very loud when Harry is shouting, but for some reason right now I'm imagining his shouting as quieter. An oddity indeed.

#37 K
Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I think that shouting (I believe I've seen it called the CAPS-LOCK-OF-RAGE) gets less and less annoying each time I read it. Now I don't even notice it.

I agree, the shouting drove me bats the first time I read it. Now, I'm used to it.

Maybe because he didn't really shout that much in the movie. We know it has influenced how we picture HP things in our heads.

Maybe we Yanks were making it American shouting before we saw the movie. Isn't the stereotype that Brits are more reserved?!

I just want to say how much I'm enjoying your comments, biblio. We needed a breath of fresh air around here. Welcome, again!

Brits are more reserved, but when they blow....watch out! (I used to live with an Englishman.)

Thanks lg!

I'm so ridiculously happy to have people to say these things I think to. (Wow, that was some bad grammar but I'm not sure how to fix it.)

#38 biblio:
You're welcome. I like the name for the uppercaps screaming.

"I 'gree with Sirius..." I mean, I agree with Biblio and LG about Harry's screaming bothering me less, and noticing it less often.

#40 comski:
Perhaps so! That could be a very good reason why.

#41 Biblio:
True.

I haven't been in the group readings much, but welcome Biblio! :)

I want to give credit where credit is due, I believe the term was coined in a very old thread by suge.

#43 biblio:
Each LTer may edit their posts by clicking on the little pencil to the right of our messages. :)

It does sound like something suge would say.

#45 biblio:
Suge! Hehe, maybe it was her - always hilarious girl.

#42 and speaking of suge,

LG, was the Englishman Hot or did you live with a LEG: Lukewarm English Guy?

#46

Thanks, I probably could have figured that out eventually...but then I have been trying to figure it out for 2 weeks already!

I must admit, this is the first time that I've been at all interested in posting so this whole thing is pretty new to me!

#49 hmmm...well I thought he was hot, but I don't think you could say he was conventionally attractive. (He has a weight problem, but that has never stopped me!) His speaking voice was amazing.....(swoon!)

#49 compski:
LOL! Too bad she doesn't read the group read threads. ;)

#50 biblio:
You're welcome! I'm glad we could increase your new addiction to LT! Welcome aboard! :)

51 It is amazing how an accent can improve a guy. I bet MrA sounds really cute!

LOL it has to be the right accent though. I dated a guy from Yorkshire and he was incomprehensible!

Indeed, there are certain southern US accents that for me are a turnoff. (Although others are nice, like Virginia or certain parts of Georgia.)

Absolutely. I went to college in the NC mountains and there were some....ummm....interesting accents there!

I used to know a guy who was from Birmingham, UK, then Australia, then New York. He had the weirdest accent ever!

55 Yes, many southern accents do tend to drop the IQ of guys. Exceptions: Matthew McConaughey and Harry Connick Jr.! (and spaz, I'm sure)

That must be why I don't find McConaghey attractive in the least.

*hides from foggi*

;)

Found you, K!

Um . . . why were you hiding?

The thread took a turn from OotP. A hijack attempt if not the actual thing. ;)

#58 thank you compiski!!! I am feeling smarter already due to JP's e-homeschooling!

#62 K
Teehee! I was talking to my dad and told him that somehow our discussion of Chapters 5-8 had devolved to a discussion of U.S. Southern accents. He was intrigued!

Hehehe! I told one of my sisters about it myself, right about the time that I wrote post #60.

I just relaized that it's a very similar conversation over at "what are you reading"! Why are we all so interested in accents all of the sudden?!

Accents are very interesting. I love them!

Mundungus has a great accent! I love the way JKR writes accents, you can totally hear them while you're reading them. Dung! Hagrid! Fleur!

(See what I did there? Back to topic!)

Yes, I love that she includes accents! Not all writers do that using character speech.

(Yes, that was great! :)

Some people hate that tho. I have heard people whine about reading great books like Their Eyes Were Watching God or Gone With The Wind or Paddy Clark, Ha Ha Ha because they're written in dialect.

Maybe it depends on how you read. If you just concentrate on the letters on the page, I could see it being annoying. Personally, I play books as a movie in my head, so I love the added help! Otherwise everyone just talks like me!

Hmm. Okay, I guess I vary. I couldn't stand Huckleberry Finn because reading does have an affect on speech. (I asked one of my sisters to shut the 'dur' - ugh!!)

LOL I never have that problem when I read, but if I watch a movie or TV show watch out. Especially something from a region where I've lived. You do not want to watch Fargo with me!

Reading is always a great help to my speech. I had to take a speech class as a kid for all kinds of trouble with prefixes and suffixes (sp?). At the same time...developing the pronouciation one way in your head and never hearing it spoken can be humiliating when you pronouce words the wrong way in front of a group of people such as the book people of LT. (This happened to me when I said the title of Jane Eyre in a lit class five years ago.) *blushes*

Harry Potter books have not affected my speech, however. Perhaps the UK ones on my spelling, though ('realise' instead of 'realize').

The only time dialect writing bugged me was trying to read The Wee Free Men. I got the audio version and it was great. I can barely understand Scots when they talk so writing it out just doesn't help. Other times, tho, I think it's cool.

Like trying to read a Robert Burns poem. Oh it hurts my brain!

#75 -- Crivens! I think he made them almost unintelligible on purpose. Sometimes it's best not to know what the Nac Mac Feegle are saying. ;-)

There's a lot of Scots in The Five Red Herrings by Dorothy Sayers, and I remember my Dad saying something similar about how it made for difficult reading.

They're so funny, tho. Whoever did the reading for the audiobook was just intelligible enough. He did a great West Counties accent for Tiff and her co-horts, as well. And his Granny Weatherwax was brilliant!

OMG I love accents