Book Discussion: Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass CONTAINS SPOILERS

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Book Discussion: Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass CONTAINS SPOILERS

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1clamairy
mei 14, 2008, 9:06 am

Not sure if anyone is done, but I'll start this now anyway.

2PensiveCat
mei 14, 2008, 9:37 am

Oh, is it go time to start? I almost started yesterday. OK, tonight then...what? Sorry, drinking coffee today and feeling hyper, should stick to tea. Mad tea party!

3readafew
mei 14, 2008, 10:06 am

I was amazed at how fast I made it through the books. They were fun but I liked Through the looking glass much better. in the First book Alice kept irritating me by constantly interrupting the in story storytellers. I guess it's cause I like a good story and how will I know if it's good you it's not told?

Any others done and ready?

4cal8769
mei 14, 2008, 11:08 am

Well I have to get started.

5aviddiva
mei 14, 2008, 11:16 am

I have to reread them to confirm, but I've always liked Through the Looking Glass better, too, even though all the "famous" scenes come from Alice in Wonderland.

6readafew
mei 14, 2008, 11:25 am

I'm constantly amazed at when I read my previous posts how dumb I can sound, even though I did proof read them.

I think the reason the scenes from Wonderland are better well known has to do with how the books were written. Wonderland describes the scenes fairly well, painting them with bright clear strokes. Through the looking glass seemed to be a lot more internal or simple conversations and the scenery was much more fluid in between character conversations.

7clamairy
mei 21, 2008, 10:45 am

I finished Alice, but decided to skim Looking-Glass. Having read them both many years ago I feel like I'm piddling away precious reading time on something that isn't ringing any happy bells for me. Not sure why.

I do LOVE the poems, though. Sadly, I just can't stop picturing the author as a bit of a letch, you know? Even though none of those rumors have ever been verified.

8maggie1944
mei 21, 2008, 10:56 am

My dad, who I did not get enough time with, used to quote, "Now is the time, the walrus said...." to tell me it was bedtime. No arguments allowed....go to bed.

9drneutron
mei 21, 2008, 11:16 am

I may get some disagreement with this comment, but I thought that Looking Glass was much less interesting than Wonderland. It felt like somebody (maybe Alice Liddell?) asked for more, so Carroll contrived up more. It was sort of like going to a movie sequel cooked up to cash in rather than a story that stands on its own merits. Not that it was all bad by any means. Pieces were brilliant, but not enough of it. Some of the parts where he played with mirror images of meanings got me chuckling, but there just wasn't enough there to satisfy.

Wikipedia claims that Looking Glass was written during a time when he was suffering from depression due to the death of his father. So maybe that's why it feels so different from Wonderland...

10clamairy
mei 21, 2008, 11:19 am

#9 I'm with you. That's why I was able to re-read Alice, but not Looking-Glass. It's flatter, IMHO.

11katylit
mei 22, 2008, 5:27 pm

In re-reading Looking Glass, you're right, it is flatter, which surprised me, as I remember loving it when I was younger. I guess it captured my imagination, I remember looking in mirrors and wondering what it would be like to go through them and what the world would be like on the other side. I was a very fanciful child. ;-)

Interesting to find out he was depressed and his father had died.

I've always discounted the lecherous rumours, just as I have the rumours about J.M. Barrie. Just because an adult enjoys the company of children does not always make him/her a pervert. One of my best friends as a child was a spinster who lived two doors down from us. She taught me to play the piano, to knit, crochet, we read together, baked cookies, and just visited. In this day and age I'm sure our relationship would be looked upon as suspect, but it was purely innocent and I benefitted in so many ways.

The article in Wikipedia on Lewis Carroll is interesting and seems to present both sides to the issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll#The_.22Cut_Pages_in_Diary.22_document

12MrsLee
mei 22, 2008, 6:14 pm

katylit - I've always discounted the lecherous rumours, just as I have the rumours about J.M. Barrie. Just because an adult enjoys the company of children does not always make him/her a pervert.

I agree. I knew several bachelor cowboy dudes who were such a blessing in my and other children's lives. They taught us skills and had a lot more patience than our parents. Fun too. No hanky-panky. Sad that there were so many bad apples that ruined that sort of mentoring.

13littlegeek
mei 22, 2008, 6:23 pm

I hope they weren't pedophiles. In any case, they understood the minds of children, that's for sure. And for that I will always love them.

I got to see a ms of Carroll's at the BM library. What beautiful handwriting he had.

14MrsLee
Bewerkt: mei 23, 2008, 3:10 pm

I've been playing in Shakespeare, and of course there are many phrases from that which are known the world over. I was wondering, how many can we think of that are very common from Alice or the Looking Glass?

I'm late, I'm late!

Beware the Jaberwok my son (this isn't actually in Alice, is it?)

Unbirthday

Curiouser and curiouser

My father used to say a nonsense phrase, which I later found came from Alice, but I can't remember it right now. :(

I do get them confused with the Disney movie sometimes.

15aviddiva
mei 23, 2008, 3:32 pm

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son" is in Through the Looking Glass.

I bet your nonsense phrase is from the same poem: "Oh frabjous day! Calooh! Callay!"

Actually, Carroll made up several words in that poem which have entered the language: chortled I know is one, and I think burbled also.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee

"Drink me"

"I'm running as fast as I can"

"He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases."

16cal8769
jun 2, 2008, 12:27 pm

I think that I would have liked Alice except for the info provided in More Annotated Alice. Instead of enjoying the book, I was wondering if Carroll was a pedophile. Now I'm debating on reading Throught the looking Glass.

17Morphidae
jun 2, 2008, 9:49 pm

I liked Adventures. I had to trudge my way through Looking Glass. I know it is a nonsense tale, but it made NO sense whatsoever.

18dchaikin
okt 14, 2008, 2:35 pm

I've been entering our children's books for awhile and read Adventures when I came across a copy we have. I hadn't read it before. This was about a month ago. Then today I came across this thread which I either missed or have forgotten about.

I didn't like it. I can see that it's clever, and the illustrations are memorable, but it's just too strange and disturbing for me. I'm curious what the appeal is to children.

19MrsLee
okt 14, 2008, 2:46 pm

I never read it as a child, but the first time I read it, I reveled in the nonsense and the fun use of words. It's not as fun, in my opinion, if you try to figure out the "meaning" of it all.

20katylit
okt 14, 2008, 4:18 pm

I think it was the "no sense" and nonsense parts of it that was the appeal for me. I loved how mixed up it was, the Mad Hatter party, how Alice grew, and shrank, and grew. How distracted and distraught the rabbit was. How totally wonderful that the roses got painted and flamingos were used to play croquet and the baby turned into a pig. It was just totally mad. And they were all adults! And Alice was the child and she seemed to be the only sane one. I found that reassuring as a child when I first read it, made me feel superior I guess, at least while I was escaping into the book.

21dchaikin
okt 14, 2008, 4:26 pm

Was there a meaning of it all?

22readafew
okt 14, 2008, 5:10 pm

Don't take life to seriously.

23yareader2
okt 14, 2008, 5:23 pm

#18

I think the appeal to children is that Alice was in control of her decisions, she was the grown up. The others around her acted foolish and she marched on. She asked advice, but she knew right from wrong. That cannot be said of the rest of the characters. I loved the ending best because no matter how a child's imagination takes off, and there are an infinite ways to make that happen, it is always reassuring to land back safely where the reader starts.

24dchaikin
okt 14, 2008, 6:44 pm

#22 readafew - really? Maybe it was all about the 'benefits' of drinking and eating strange mushrooms.

#23 yareader2 - Oh yeah, good points. Alice is on her own, free of parents and teachers (and the schools do take a bashing). So she is independent... On the other hand, she does whatever she's told.

25maggie1944
okt 14, 2008, 10:59 pm

It really is a bizarre tale. I liked it because my father used to quote it to me. Sentimental. As an adult, I liked it cuz it was sort of like the '60s - groovy, man, far out!

26sandalphon
okt 15, 2008, 12:02 pm

IMAO Through the looking glass is better than "Alice", deeper with more symbolism and more skill full writing. I think that he tried harder on 'the looking glass'. Not to mention i like the darker tone more and I am a sucker for chess :P

27katylit
okt 15, 2008, 2:06 pm

Because I'm a very literal reader and this is a discussion, would you mind expanding on that a bit sandalphon? What is some of the symbolism in Looking Glass? I guess I would see the obvious as "two sides to everything", as in a mirror image. Do you really think Carroll was trying for that or was he just spouting and trying to be whimisical?

28sandalphon
okt 15, 2008, 3:06 pm

I do think he was trying for it and not just spouting nonsense (which he did more of in Wonderland). Some of the symbolism includes the nature of reality "... you are in his dream if he woke up you would go out, Bang, like a candle", distance like when she had to run to stay in one place and the use of a train, the insanity of the normal world like the name of the Bugs (the nonsense of names and words are explored here and in the conversation with humpity dumpity as well,) transience is explored throughout both works. Of course the fact it is a game of chess can have all sorts of meanings such as the fact that someone has to move the pieces they do not move of there own free will and everyone has there own lot in life ( it should be noted that Alice "transcends" when she becomes queen at the end (?death?)). Hope that helps you out some :)

29katylit
Bewerkt: okt 15, 2008, 5:26 pm

I guess that makes a lot of sense that he would be more philosophical in Looking Glass, considering that his father had so recently died. Maybe writing this book was part of his grieving process, his way of working through it.

eta: I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll have to get the book and look up the references you quote. I really like your thoughts though, it's given me stuff to think about - thanks :-)