Deathly Hallows discussion Chapters 9-12

Just wanted to get this started. This week's chapters are:

9: A Place to Hide
10: Kreacher's Tale
11: The Bribe
12: Magic is Might

Take it away Ern!

Okay, I'm all caught up so I'll go ahead with my notes for Chapter 9:

1. Hermione is awesome and magic is very handy.

2. Hermione says she's never done a memory charm, so how did she modify her parents' memories?

3. This read through I find myself paying close attention to who uses the word "Voldemort" and what follows. Does the Trace thingy not work when they're in #12? Because later they keep saying the Death Eaters don't know for sure they're in there, but they keep saying Voldemort. I'm so confused at the rules of which spells trump which.

4. Poor Draco. I really feel bad for him being forced to torture Rowle.

I think the trace came after Harry and Co. escaped from the burrow

Hermione can do any charm she chooses I think, she is so awesome!

I do not nor will I ever feel sorry for Draco or his parents.

Yes, the Trace came after HH&R left the Burrow. They got their first taste of it in the cafe. I'm curious about when they were at #12 Grimmauld Place, which occurred after the cafe.

I think a memory charm and memory modification are different. But it could just be me justifing things for myself.

I guess the charm of #12 outweighs voldy's trace

That just seems off to me. Besides, one would think modifying someone's memory far more difficult than erasing a memory, if that is indeed what a "memory charm" is. That bother's me too, I feel like a "charm" should be more innocuous than "obliviating" a memory. And really, shouldn't erasing a memory be the beginning stage of memory modification?

Where is everyone today? The last couple weeks we would have had at least 40 posts by now! Oh well, I'll go ahead and post my Chapter 10 notes, though I doubt they'll provoke much discussion either.

1. I love the idea of Ron & Hermione falling asleep holding hands. I actually remember that more clerarly from my first read than the kiss.

2. The letter & picture are pretty cool. I can just imagine what Harry felt on finding them.

3. The flood of relief on discovering I was correct about R.A.B. I remember quite distinctly. I wasn't right about much else!

4. From reading past posts, I know many of you had figured out the locket, but I totally didn't, I admit it. (Meaning I didn't put two and two together about the locket mentioned in OotP.)

5. Kreacher's story brings tears to my eyes. I would have the same reaction as Hermione if I had been there!

I was busy this weekend watching tennis and desperately trying to finish Ship of Destiny. I'm about 30 pages from the end, so I'll catch up with my Harry pages after that.

I think R.A.B. was a bone JKR threw us so almost everyone would figure out at least one clue. It was kinda obvious.

eta: count me among the clueless needing that bone, btw!

Wow lg! I know it wasn't your intention, but you just made me feel incredibly stupid and about three inches tall!

2.2 bib
Mandy's post #5 has me thinking that to modify a memory may not affect as much of the memory as a memory charm does.

#6 bib:
I can agree to that. It does sound as though modifying someone's memory would be more difficult.

7.1
That sounds very cute.
7.3
That was something I had been right about, as well. I'd thoguht of him as soon as I saw his initials in HBP.

I can't read Deathly Hallows now, but I'm going home on Thursday. I'll be able to read DH then and will post on the other threads for the book discussion, hopefully catching up soon. I've decided that I can't take notes for myself except after completing each group of chapters, however, because I really am an extreme note taker and would never catch up if I take them as I read.

Oh, wow -- I expected to be way behind at this point! I spent the morning driving back from Espy's, so haven't had a chance to check in until just now.

I have Espy's comments as well as my own this week. Bib, many of mine are very similar to yours! Here's Chapter 9:

1) (Foggi) Way to go, Hermione! Side-along apparition with two 'passengers,' then the coolness of the beaded handbag. I want one of those! (Espy says she'll make a great little old granny, with a bag like that. Mrs Espy and I thought it was more like Mary Poppins -- but I can see applications as a diaper bag, too!)

2) Ron changes from his robes to his muggle clothes in the alley -- what is he wearing under the robes? Underwear, I guess . . . actually, I probably don't want to know.

3) Espy wonders what kind of spells shatter walls. I think just "stupefy" would do it -- think of all of the stuff they destroyed in the Ministry -- but the Death Eaters are probably using more complex dark magic than that.

4) I'm curious about the defenses put on Grimmauld Place to keep Snape out. The tongue-tying curse -- does it now keep HH&R from telling anyone the location, or would it only work on Snape? What was the simulacrum of Dumbledore supposed to do -- just scare him? Or would it have attacked, if Harry hadn't said that he wasn't Snape? Espy noted that Harry seemed to stumble upon the right thing to say there.

5) Espy wonders, did Harry use a nonverbal spell to shut the curtains in front of Mrs. Black's portrait? Is he getting better at nonverbal spells?

6) Espy also wonders, when Harry has his vision of Voldy making Draco torture the Death Eater -- is this the first time Harry feels sorry for Draco?

11.2 I kinda hoped Harry used the invisibility cloak to hide him!

11.3 Reducto would. Kind of it's job actually!

11.4 I've wondered that myself. Doesn't really matter though, probably just as well if it ties everyone's tongues that go in there, now that they're all "secret-keepers".

11.5 No telling. JKR doesn't always tell us when a spell is spoken out loud.

11.6 I'm pretty sure he feels some sympathy for him after witnessing the scene on the Lightening Struck Tower. I'd have to double check HBP though.

OMG, bib, I so totally didn't mean to insult you or anyone else. Please accept my apologies, sincerely. I was just trying to agree with you about how little I figured out! Duh.

*note to self: do not post on a Monday morning after a 3-day-weekend of severe sleep deprivation*

#13 -- You had one of those, too? I just realized this morning that I've slept somewhere other than my own comfy bed for the past five nights -- which basically means five nights of not-so-restful sleep! Maybe that's why I'm feeling so sluggish.

#2.2 -- Oh, good observation! I think this might just have been a slip-up on JKR's part.

#2.3 -- Espy and I noticed the same thing, about how often they say "Voldemort." I think I made a note on it in a later chapter (will post those notes in a while). I guess the protective spells on Grimmauld Place hide them from the trace on the name. I wonder if the same spells would hide them from the trace on underage magic?

#7.1 -- Oh, me too! Very sweet.

#7.5 -- Yes. I have now read that part of the book aloud twice, and it does bring tears to my eyes every time.

#10 -- Yes, that's what happened to me with HBP -- I tried to catch up, making notes as I went, and it was incredibly slow going! Good luck!

No worries lg! I see what you mean now and I'm happy to include such an illustrious personnage as yourself amongst the clueless Potterheads!

(Hmmm....is it possible I've been reading too much 19th century English literature?)

Seriously, I know what you mean now, thanks for explaining!

With the whole Snape- tongue tying curse thing, Harry had to say "I didn't kill you." Snape only killed DD because DD made him. So, is Snape the true killer of DD? Could the dust DD read minds similar to the way the real DD did and allow Sanpe entrance to Number 12? Just a thought...

P.S. I know that the spell was put on after Snape went into Number 12, but this was if Snape wanted to return there.

#14.13 My excuse was getting up at the crack of dawn every day to watch tennis. Esp. Sunday, as I went to bed at 1am. Boy, was it worth it, tho!

Bib, I think the only other thing I figured out was that Snape as fundamentally good. I remember having heated discussions before the fact declaiming that Harry could not be a horcrux. Duh. (I still don't like it, but that's another story.)

Sounds like me! Those were the two things I had. I was arguing with people at the midnight release saying there was no way Harry could be a Horcrux!

btw, allow me to mention that this is another of the many reasons i love JKR: I usually DO figure out plots. I missed so much stuff in Harry, and I love surprises.

11.1 foggi
Likewise, I love Hermione's bag. It made me think of mom-bags/purses. (They usually have everything!) My own mother took to calling her purse a Hermione bag after DH was released, though she's never read any of the books.

#13 LG:
I hope you get a chance to get some extra Zs soon! It's not fun being exhausted. :(

LATER DH SPOILER
2.3 & #14 :
Maybe there was a purpose for that. JKR could have been trying to make saying his name stand out because of when it becomes no longer safe to.
End spoiler

#14 foggi RE #10:
Thanks! :)

20.2.3/14:

It's already not safe too say his name, that's how the Death Eaters find them in the cafe. What we're commenting on is the fact that it is apparently okay to say it in #12 Grimmauld Place because the protective enchantments that have been placed on it apparently trump the new "Trace". I hadn't thought about the regular Trace though foggi, you bring up an interesting point. As we have been told previously, the Trace can't differentiate which wizard cast the spell, only that a spell had been cast in their vicinity (which is how Harry got in trouble for Dobby). Does this mean that one of the protective enchantments on Grimmauld Place keeps anyone from knowing magic is taking place there? You'd think if the house was being kept secret, someone in the ministry might wonder at all the magic occuring in a spot where they don't know there are witches and wizards (for even if they knew the Black's address, they're all dead). This leads me to believe that one of the protective enchantments must prevent the detection of their magic, which should probably be illegal.

I'm going to put in my chapter 10 notes here:

1) Espy notes that the pages on the floor, and the mention of Bathilda in the letter, are a nice way to keep her at the front of our minds.

2) Espy also wonders if there are wizard Polaroids. :-)

3) What was Snape after, when he searched the house? (This may be explained later, but neither Espy nor I could remember.) We know that he end up taking half a photograph and the last page of a letter -- but why was he there in the first place? Was he looking for the horcrux? I thought he didn't know about those. Was he looking for information on the Order? Why search Sirius' room, then -- when Sirius had been dead for a year?

4) This point is related to point 3, but . . . why re-lock Regulus' room? Snape had obviously searched there, but HH&R had to unlock the door to get in. Did Regulus have a spell on the door so it locked every time it closed?

5) This is where I had the note about how often they say "Voldemort" originally.

6) Okay -- in HBP, we had some discussion about Draco joining the Death Eaters when he was underage. Lupin and the other older Order members kept telling Harry that Voldemort wouldn't have accepted an underage wizard into his ranks, anyway. But here we learn that Regulus was 16 -- underage! -- when he joined Voldemort!

7) Voldemort took Kreacher to the cave to drink the potion so he could put the locket in. Was the basin already there, then? Had he just created it earlier, and then brought the locket soon after, or was the cave/lake/basin setup something older, that Voldy just appropriated for his use? DD seemed to suggest (in HBP) that Voldy had made the whole setup -- but then, why not put the locket in the basin before filling it the first time?

8) Espy says he thinks that giving Kreacher the locket should count as giving him "clothes." I say not -- jewelry is different from clothing. What do you all think?

22.3: I don't remember either, I assume there was some reason though!

22.4: I wondered that myself. Not sure why I didn't write it down.

22.6: Would they have known exactly when Reg. joined up? Sirius had runaway by then and I don't think he had much to do with them after that.

22.7: I think Voldemort had the whole set up already. I wonder if he set it up before creating the Horcrux, in preparation for it. It's also mentioned that he wanted to make sure that the potion did what it was supposed to do, which is of course why he brought Kreacher, though, of course if this was his only reason for going the locket could have been there already.

22.8: I agree, jewelry isn't clothes.

#21 bib:
Opps, sorry! I really ought to reread first. :)

Silencio, K! ;)

Don't be silly K, I would have thought the same thing if I hadn't just read it! Don't be afraid to join in based on memory!

Thanks, bib! :)

Sorry I am late. Summer school started today.

2.2 You are right! I wonder if JKR ever has anyone proofread the novels that actually tell her when something needs fixing.

2.3 I was assuming the Deatheaters new for sure someone was in there and the three were just guessing that they were guessing.

3.1 The speaking trace was on right away, that is how the Deatheaters found them at that diner.

7.2 I found it interesting that Harry and his mom made their "g"'s the same way. My mom's writing is just like my grandmother's even though they went to different schools.

8 I got caught up in the tennis, too. Completely forgot to read until after the men's final. I never really had time to take notes, either. Sorry Bib.

11.1 Imagine when she is a granny and she goes to hit someone with that bag!

11.5 Also, if it was so easy to shut up Mrs. Black, why didn't members of the Order use that spell back in OotP?

22.8 I keep going back and forth on this. You do wear jewelry, but is it really clothing?

Hi Compski! Boo to summer school for keeping you away! I'm going to go ahead with my chapter 11 notes now.

1. I love that Harry does better than Hermione on Lupin's arrival.

2. Impressive of Scrimgeour. I still don't like him, but at least he died protecting Harry.

3. I like what Harry said to Lupin and I do think that "if it makes him go back to Tonks, it's worth it." Harry was perfectly justified in viewing it the way he does and I think Lupin needed to hear what Harry said.

4. The Muggleborn registration commission is terrifying not the least because it is based on history.

5. I like that they call him Remus. It shows that they are adults. I remember that when my friends started turning 18, my mom started insisting that they call her by her first name. (She would have before actually, but the culture of our town went against that inclination).

6. Wonder what they're going to do about Dung as he wasn't in OotP (movie).

7. Kreacher is my favorite house-elf.

Hi Bib! I guess it is about time I contribute to society. It was nice to see everyone again, but 6 am is so early!

Why is chapter 11 called The Bribe?

28.7 Kreacher is definitely the best house elf.

I believe it's because the locket was used as a bribe to keep Umbridge from arresting Dung. She probably could have come up with a better title for that chapter though!

#28.1 -- Yes, Harry always was just a little bit better than Hermione at Defense Against the Dark Arts.

#28.2 -- I had the same thought, though I didn't make note of it.

#29 -- Oh, good point -- that chapter title isn't as well-suited to the chapter as it could have been.

I'm going to add my notes for chapter 12, they're not so good.

1. "Merlin's most baggy Y fronts." KIK! Must remember to use this phrase in conversation!

2. I feel so bad for Kreacher when they leave, knowing what will happen!

3. So Kreacher can hang up cloaks and do laundry...

4. Poor Cattermole! Bad timing Harry!

Here are my chapter 11 notes:

1) In this chapter, Lupin gets to be King (of Exposition) for the day.

2) Espy wonders if Thicknesse was Imperiused by Voldy, personally, since his is now the puppet Minister of Magic.

3) Espy agrees with Bib -- "Way to tell him, Harry!" I also think that Harry said what Lupin needed to hear, though he was pretty rough about it.

4) Harry starts to read the Skeeter article "thinking it could hardly make him feel any worse" -- yeah, right. Harry really should know better.

33.2 I suppose he could have been re-imperioused by Voldy but in Chapter one Rookwood (I think) is the one who has imperiused him.

33.4 True that!

And chapter 12, to get all of my notes on here:

1) I may have asked this earlier, but I don't remember getting an answer. #12 Grimmauld Place is described as sitting between #11 and #13. Now, in the US, #12 would sit between #10 and #14 -- #s 11 and 13 would be side by side across the street. Is it different in Britain?

2) Espy and I had to chuckle at Ron -- when he and Hermione are not quarreling, he's complimenting her at every turn.

3) I find the Ministry of Magic entrance to be just disgusting. What if some muggle wandered in there and decided to put the, um, facilities to their proper use? (I'm sure there are spells to prevent this, but still!)

35.1 Isn't it on a circle? Maybe that makes a difference. I always picture it looking like a grubby version of where Mr. Brownlow lives in the musical Oliver!

#36 -- That might explain it. I'll have to go back and reread the initial description of it in OotP -- if I feel really motivated. . . .

Ron says that he remembered the entrance to the ministry from his childhood, but he makes no mention of this in OotP.

My random notes:

I really don't get the DD entrance charm thingy's purpose. Would they really think Snape wouldn't be able to get past it? He's such a brilliant wizard.

Kreacher is the least offensive house elf.

Since Harry, James and Lily are all in the photo, who took it? Bathilda? Pettigrew?

Why is Hermione so worried about going to Godric's Hollow when they've already gone to the two most obvious places (the Burrow & Grimmauld Place) and not been caught?

Why did Voldy go to such elaborate "Bond villian" lengths to hide his horcruxes? Wouldn't that just make them more vulnerable in a way? Why not put them in some random muggle landfill or into the cement in a building's foundation or something? They're nigh indestructable, and apparently as we saw in GoF, they don't need to be there if you ressurect yourself, so why draw attention to them? (to which my husband would say, "it's a book!")

I love when Harry reams out Lupin. He deserves it.

How come the ministry can get through the enchantments at the Burrow, but not at Grimmauld Place?

Why does Lupin offer to "provide protection?" In PoA, he practically killed them all; couldn't distinguish his friends.

More polyjuice potion. Oy.

Wouldn't the people they turn into call in sick once they got home?

I guess that's all. G'night all!

I think the DD charm thing might be able to recognize only Snape and do something to him. I can't remember what happens later in the memory though, and you've read it more recently then I did. I imagine more than anything else it made the Order feel like they were doing something to protect their secrets.

Their camera could have autopic thingy or it could be magic! ;)

Good point about Godric's Hollow. Of course, turns out she was right to be worried and I don't know that Grimmauld Place is any more obvious than Godric's Hollow, but the burrow definitely is.

Voldy hiding his horcruxes: First of all, I think it's important to remember that he didn't go to such lengths for all, or even most of his horcruxes, for the most part he was arrogant enough to assume no one would ever figure it out. I think he protected the locket the way did because it was fun for him to be honest. I imagine part of him hoped someone would stumble across it and go through the torture he planned. This is making me wonder something else though. Does DD say something at the cave about Voldy checking every so often to see if anyone has showed up? or am I confusing that with the vault in SS/PS? If Voldy does go back to check every so often, how often? Apparently he has no idea about Reg having taken it yet. I think the first thing I would have done upon getting a body again (and learning that Malfoy had managed to get one of my Horcruxes destroyed) was go check on the rest of them!

Good question about the ministry. Only thing I can think of is that many of those enchantments had been placed by the Blacks and had been around forever. Here's a question though, Hermione (or someone) says the Ministry will know Harry owns Grimmauld Place now because of the will thing, is the address in the Will? If so, how is that secret-keeping? Can they not read the address because it's not written by DD? Shouldn't they be able to read it once DD dies because it makes Sirius a secret-keeper too? Or can he not be a secret-keeper because he predeceased DD? Or is it that they know about the house and that Harry owns it, but because they weren't told by a secret-keeper they can't see it? Yep, that's it. No need to answer, I talked it out!

I kinda wondered that about Lupin too. It's not as if he can change at will, nor would he be willing to do as Greyback does and place himself somewhere to do harm at the moon. He is a great wizard though, and probably would have been handy to have around. Wonder how the locket might have effected him?

Maybe you don't call in in the wizard world. Or maybe they were hoping to be in and out before word got around that they weren't supposed to be there.

yeah I agree with Bib

Re horcruxes: going back to check would be drawing attention to it. If they only have to exist and never used again, then just make them, hide them GOOD and never go back.

I think I agree with your husband on this one, LG -- "it's a book!" Actually, I think that JKR did her best to address that issue by making Voldemort incredibly vain. He's sure that his clever hiding places are impenatrable, and he's too important to use rubbishy things and hide them in landfills -- his Horcruxes must be significant objects, hidden in significant locations.

I agree that JKR addressed it, I just think Voldy is an idiot. You have to give your villian a weakness, I guess, and hubris is a pretty standard one.

39: littlegeek, Grimauld Place had a secret keeper, the Burrow didn't. Maybe that is what kept the ministry out.

Also, wizards don't have phones, but I guess they could have communicated differently.

yeah, I didn't mean by phone, but just to let them know. I think it's what bib said about the heroes hoping to get in & out quickly.

As to the secret keeper stuff, it must have broken down when DD died, otherwise they'd still be using it as the HQ of the Order.

#46 -- I thought the problem with the secret-keeper for #12 GP was that, when DD died, everyone he'd told about it became a secret keeper in his place, including Snape. So, it would still have its protective enchantments, there were just a lot more people who might slip up, or betray the Order, whereas with just Dumbledore, it was pretty safe.

Interesting to note, though, that at the beginning of HBP even DD wasn't sure whether the old Black family magic to ensure that the house stayed in the family would be stronger than the secret-keeper magic -- guess the concept is pretty complex, if it confuses even DD! ;-)

I couldn't tell you exactly which chapter, but earlier in DH it was explained that after DD died, everyone he had told the secret to became secret-keeper. Grimmauld Place was no longer used as HQ for two reasons therefore:

1. there were now too many secret-keepers to have a reasonable chance of keeping it quiet

2. one of those secret-keepers was Snape.

What I don't understand, and never have is why they seem to believe that Snape would come to Grimmauld Place before telling the Death Eaters its position. The tongue-tying curse is meant to keep Snape from spilling the beans, but that would only work if he goes inside before telling anyone and if we were evil, why would he go there alone? It makes no sense to me.

#48 -- It does seem like a pretty rash assumption . . . but it turned out to be true. Maybe they thought he would come in case the Order had left any incriminating evidence about himself? That doesn't really make sense, though, as they were pretty much convinced that he had been acting under Voldemort's orders the whole time.

I wonder what Snape told Voldemort about why he couldn't reveal the location? Surely Voldy would have asked him about it when the Death Eaters started suspecting that HH&R were hiding there.

maybe there are simply limits to the kind of magic that can protect a place especially one full of dark magic

I agree with bib, why would Snape come back to Grimmauld Place alone before telling Voldy? And why DID he come back at all? (I skipped to the end to verify, and he did do it after DD's death, but it isn't explained why.)

It isn't? I was hoping that we at least found out why he came back. Poop.

Maybe I missed it. We'll have to read carefully when we get there.

I thought it was explained...but I don't have the best of memories so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I wonder why Snape seems to gain the trust of people in power so easily while never seeming to convince those that follow orders of those people...did that make sense?

It did and it's a good question. I wonder if it's as simple as he just can't be bothered to care what the underlings think of him?

I think that's partly it, bib. As I see it, he's a very private, secretive sort of person. He doesn't really care what people think of him -- not in a self-confident way, but because he has a pretty low opinion of himself. He'll reveal things about himself to Dumbledore and Voldemort which inspire them to trust him, but he doesn't see the need to let the rest of the world in on all of the details of his life.

Thank you! that makes sense.

foggi, you've really thought this through. ;-)

Another thing about Snape is his willingness to be "second banana," to be that guy who actually does all the work and gets none of the credit. There are people who seemed to be wired for that and Snape is one.

JKR's psychological insight always impresses.

#58 -- Scary, isn't it? ;-)

very much so

I was out of town for the beginning of the week, sorry to have been missing from discussion!

Hermione's bag is just great, as others have said. She's wonderful.

#17, 18: I still kind of feel like Harry doesn't really count as a Horcrux because he was accidental. Everyone I heard saying Harry was one were saying V had done it on purpose, which makes no sense as V has been trying relentlessly to kill Harry. It helps me feel better to think of it that way.

#19, me too LG. Husband and I both read the same book recently and he liked it more than me because I had it all figured out but the ending surprised him. It always makes me a little sad to have correctly guessed the end. I'd rather be surprised, but it takes a lot to surprise me.

#21, that all sounds good to me! I definitely agree that the taboo on V's name is voided within Grimmauld Place, and having the normal Trace also blocked makes sense or Harry would have been in more trouble in book 5 while he was staying there and adults were doing magic all around him.

#22.7 V was perhaps testing the whole system. To make sure the potion was functioning and that the Inferi would come up to get the one who drank the water. Bib, good point that he had set up the cave and made the Horcrux after the cave was already secured.

22.8, jewelry definitely isn't clothing. You can't go outside wearing naught but your bracelet.

Great thoughts on Snape's personality. I love that he is willing to do the work without the credit and that he is able to suffer others being judgmental without explaining himself or making himself look better. What an outstanding character JKR made!!

My thoughts in no order:
1. Kreacher's story is one of my favorite parts of the series. I love learning that past story.

2. When Harry wakes up and sees that Ron and Hermione probably fell asleep holding hands, it says it made him feel lonely. It made me sad to think of Harry as feeling lonely.

3. RAB and the locket having been in OotP are pretty much the only things I had predicted correctly. Which is fine by me -- after all, the best kind of prize is a surprise! ;)

4. I love seeing the change in Kreacher that just a bit of thoughtfulness brings about.

5. Too much Polyjuice with the trip into the ministry!

LEFTY!!!!!!!!

Whoo! I got way overexcited, hit tab when I meant to turn off my Caps Lock and then for a reason known only to my right thumb, hit the spacebar twice, thus double posting.

Anyway, I meant to say, I had been wondering where you were and was happy to see your post.

Hi, Lefty! Huzzah for more discussion!

61.17/18 -- I agree! Accidental horcrux is very different from intentional horcrux.

61.22.8 -- Nor can you go outside wearing naught but your socks . . . ;-) I agree with you, though.

61.2 -- Yes, me too. For most of this book, whether he's conscious of it or not, Harry is convinced that he's going to die. He can't see any future for himself beyond completing what he's set out to do. It reminds me a little bit of Frodo and Sam in the last stages of their journey through Mordor, how it didn't matter that they didn't have enough food for the return journey, because they didn't think there would be one. Harry can see a future for Ron and Hermione, he can see a future for Ginny -- but his future, as he says, is entirely taken up with destroying Voldemort. (In both cases, I'm glad they were wrong!)

61.4 -- Amazing, isn't it? And Hermione seems to be maturing in her perceptions of house-elves -- note how she occasionally explains Kreacher to Harry. While she still thinks that their subjugation is bad, she's learning that she can't just go freeing them all willy-nilly, without letting them have a say in how it's done.

Accidental horcrux, I still hate it....it's like accidentally correctly performing delicate brain surgery or something.

/today's horcrux rant

Yeah, I have the same problem with it, LG. Of course, if we knew exactly how Voldy made his horcruxes, maybe it would make more sense. Or maybe not.

She kept it vague for just this reason. However, what they had to go through to ressurrect Voldy was pretty advanced, so how could the horcrux creation be a simple spell? Other than requiring murder, that is.

If it were something that often happens spontaneously, then you'd have lots of immortal murderer wizards running around.

/ok really done with today's rant

lol, thanks for making me feel special guys. ;)

Hmm, you can't go out in just socks... No wonder the neighbors have been staring.

I'm still not thrilled about the Harry-Horcrux thing, but I'm willing to accept it. (Will LG take the bait and continue the rant?)

Really, there are loads and loads of things to be picky about when we have 7 books full of magical matter of varying degrees of complexity and strength. I can't fathom any other author having better rules than JKR has, nor do I think JKR violated her rules. Made some vague ones, sure; slipped up in minor points, sometimes. But really, what a fantastic series this is and what fun we've all had with them and will continue to have (as evidenced by these discussions!). What I'm trying to say is that I choose not to be super picky because I enjoy the books as they are, perhaps exactly because they are like this. Leaves plenty open to interpretation and discussion. If all the finer points were clear-cut, much of the debate-ability of the books would be taken away.

I'm sure I could have said that in fewer words, but I guess I have to make up for lost posting opportunities!

About the Harry is a Horcrux thing, I never want to imply that Harry was intentionally made into a horcrux. Even Dumbledore (or is it Harry, that whole scene is a confusing way to get in the debriefing with DD...) says that when Harry's scar was created it was one of the most unexpected outcomes that Voldemort could have had.

I think that Harry is "the unintentional Horcrux." From what DD says, whenever a wizard kills someone their soul tears. A Horcrux, then, is the continuation of that tearing and attaching it to something else. The reason that Voldy's soul fragment tore and turned Harry into an accidental Horcrux was the fact that he had done it so many times. If you take a piece of paper and haphazardly tear it a couple of times a piece may fly off of it's own accord, whether you mean for it to or not. I think this is what JK meant when she talked about the mistake of turning Harry into a Horcrux.

Just an observation about magic in the Harry Potter world: Most spells seem to not be that difficult. You have the complicated rituals and potion-making, but the only component that is needed for most spells is determination.

Voldy's rebirth was a ritual and a potion. Tearing the soul feels more like a spell... Now let the flaming begin as I can't seem to let this topic die...

Also, Foggi forgot one of my notes. I was saying that an idea for a drinking game that I had while she read these chapters was tat every time one of the characters uttered the name "Voldemort" after the ministry fell the reader should take a shot.

Then Foggi made me realize that the reader would be too plastered to read after they got to Grimmauld Place.

Hehe.. actually, I've always thought you have a good handle on it, Espy. I think we both think of the magic in the same way, with the distinctions between the different sorts. So, once again, I agree. :)

#69 -- I had never thought of Voldy's rebirth as a potion before, but I can kinda see it. (I think I've said all I have to say about the "Harry is a Horcrux" thing, so I'll stop with that.)

Well, as an actual witch who has done spellwork, it is always a ritual. Even when just using a wand and saying a word (even in the mind) is a kind of ritual. (I could get into more detail here, but I'd get really boring.) So to me, there is no distinction.

I agree with lefty that I really love the books and JKR's world, but I'm not trying to be "picky," I just love thinking about these things. Some of it makes more sense to me than other parts, and I enjoy discussing it from all angles.

I'm glad you said that, LG. I've wondered before whether you were still able to enjoy the books or if the details made you a bit lukewarm about them. Good to know it's all for the joy of conversation. :)

Okay, the horcrux thing...I just had a brainstorm....maybe once a wizard murders they have to take that bit of themselves out of the person they killed in order to put it into the object they want to make a horcrux....since Harry's spell rebounded and destroyed V's magical ability he couldn't retrieve that bit and so thats how Harry became the Horcrux....accidently!
whadya think? huh? Am I brilliant or what?

Don't forget, discussion on chapters 13-16 starts Monday!

I forgot one thing. I have mentioned it on other threads, but it really bugs me that Lily's letter to Sirius is in the house. He ran away at 16 and probably didn't return until he had been in Azkaban for 12 years and on the run for two more.

Maybe when Sirius was sent to Azkaban, his personal effects were sent back to his parents? Or were hidden somewhere, and he retrieved them when he was on the run and brought them back with him?

But this was when James, Lily, and Harry were in hiding, so Sirius couldn't have been living with them. Supposedly Sirius' mom died of a broken heart soon after Regulus disappeared. Sirius would have at that point inherited the house. He may have been living there. Number 12 might already become the Order's headquarters at that point.

Now I know there are some holes in this theory such as how infested the house had become by the time Harry and co. were cleaning it out. But we also have the fact that it was a dark-wizard household with a mad painting ordering a confused and distraught house elf to do stuff. Just some thoughts...

Who said anything about Sirius living with James at that point? Sirius stayed with the Potters until he was 17 and then got his own place (OotP: The Ancient and Most Noble House of Black). We have no idea when his mother died and the house became his. I suppose it's possible that Grimmauld Place was headquarters by then (the house would easily get infested in 14 years) but I don't think it's likely. I think the suggestions foggi gives could be how the letter came to be there.

I've been listening to the audio book as I study and read, so I'm using the Resurrection Stone.
I just noticed that Ron knew the entrance to the MoM from his childhood via his father. If I remeber correctly, in Order of the Phoenix Harry asks if anybody knows a way into the MoM, other than the visitor's entrance. If Ron knew the actual entrance, why didn't he say something? Is this a boo-boo on Jo's behalf?

It could be that Ron doesn't remember at the time of OotP.

What other entrance? You mean the floo network? maybe he just didn't think about it at the time

Or they didn't have access to a fireplace. Weren't they in the forest at the time Harry asked?