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1sabreader
I noticed that sometime in the 1980s I believe, maps in the US began having ISBN numbers (although my earliest map with ISBN is Norfolk and Hampton Roads area : including Chesapeake, Hampton, Newport News, Portsmouth map from 1979). Does anyone know the background of that shift?
On a related note, I noticed recently that Hallmark greeting cards also have their own ISBNs... What's that about???
On a related note, I noticed recently that Hallmark greeting cards also have their own ISBNs... What's that about???
2bookishbunny
I'd guess that almost anything that is sold in a bookstore would have an ISBN to make ordering from the distributors easier.
B&N has book bags, clocks, and Christmas ornaments with ISBN's (but not the video games...hm).
B&N has book bags, clocks, and Christmas ornaments with ISBN's (but not the video games...hm).
3Rule42
Now that the ISBN code has been extended from 10 to 13 digits there are just soooo many more things that we can now label with them, aren't there? For instance, when I've finished cataloguing on LT all my books, magazines and pornography (and, yes, maps too!) I then intend to catalogue here all my DVDs, CDs, VHS tapes, Philips cassette tapes, vinyl records (45, 33 and 78 rpm!), 8-track cartridges, PC diskettes (that would include all formats since the first 8" single-sided single-density floppy) and, of course, all my backup tapes (not just the Iomega ones!).
After that I think I'll catalogue all my old Christmas, birthday, anniversary and get-well cards (all brands, including Hallmark!) going all the way back to the fifties. Then there's my cookery cards and recipes that all need organizing and indexing. Let's see, I probably also should keep track of all the post-it notes on my fridge and all my old medical prescriptions, parking tickets and traffic citations. And coasters would also be an absolutely fantastic thing to keep track of, wouldn't they ... I'm always misplacing mine, how about you?
The more I think about this, what would be really, really neat would be for Tim to allow feeds from the USPS mail tracking system; that way I could catalogue here all the used crap I buy on eBay, too. You know, it's now probably feasible to catalogue individual postage stamps ... how cool would that be ?! Now if only I could catalogue all my socks here!
Isn't it such fun being really anally retentive? Every day new technology is making this more and more of a truly wonderful time to be alive for people like us, don't ya think?
After that I think I'll catalogue all my old Christmas, birthday, anniversary and get-well cards (all brands, including Hallmark!) going all the way back to the fifties. Then there's my cookery cards and recipes that all need organizing and indexing. Let's see, I probably also should keep track of all the post-it notes on my fridge and all my old medical prescriptions, parking tickets and traffic citations. And coasters would also be an absolutely fantastic thing to keep track of, wouldn't they ... I'm always misplacing mine, how about you?
The more I think about this, what would be really, really neat would be for Tim to allow feeds from the USPS mail tracking system; that way I could catalogue here all the used crap I buy on eBay, too. You know, it's now probably feasible to catalogue individual postage stamps ... how cool would that be ?! Now if only I could catalogue all my socks here!
Isn't it such fun being really anally retentive? Every day new technology is making this more and more of a truly wonderful time to be alive for people like us, don't ya think?
4legallypuzzled
#3, you may mock us, but being the anal-retentive sorts we are, we have ways of keeping track of you as well :)
6sabreader
chill pill anyone?...
#2> Anyway, in another thread I found a link to the US ISBN Agency : http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/index.asp , which has lots of info on ISBNs, their history, etc. According to the site, ISBNs are assigned to books and "book-like products" ... so I'm surprised things like tote bags and ornaments have them. There's also the The International ISBN Agency, at http://www.isbn-international.org/ , which has even more info.
Here's their take on the issue: "With regard to various media available, the term «book» should be understood as synonymous with content. Therefore, it is of no importance in what physical form this content is docu-mented and distributed."
And here's what they have to say about maps:
It has been agreed not to draft international rules for assigning ISBN to maps because there is evidence that the system works quite well on a national basis. The following general rules should be observed: • For cartographic products sold in the book market, the ISBN rules apply. • As with books, minor alterations do not constitute a new edition. Only if this version is especially mentioned in the title or in sales promotion, a new ISBN has to be used."
As for other "book-like products":
B. Non-Printed Books 4 • Educational, video and transparencies. • Books on cassettes or CDs (talking books) • Microform publications • Electronic publications: - Machine-readable tapes - Diskettes - CD-ROMs (except sound recordings) - Internet publications
anyway, there is much more detail on what is and is not eligible for isbn at the international site. Maps, though, are clearly cool.
#2> Anyway, in another thread I found a link to the US ISBN Agency : http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/index.asp , which has lots of info on ISBNs, their history, etc. According to the site, ISBNs are assigned to books and "book-like products" ... so I'm surprised things like tote bags and ornaments have them. There's also the The International ISBN Agency, at http://www.isbn-international.org/ , which has even more info.
Here's their take on the issue: "With regard to various media available, the term «book» should be understood as synonymous with content. Therefore, it is of no importance in what physical form this content is docu-mented and distributed."
And here's what they have to say about maps:
It has been agreed not to draft international rules for assigning ISBN to maps because there is evidence that the system works quite well on a national basis. The following general rules should be observed: • For cartographic products sold in the book market, the ISBN rules apply. • As with books, minor alterations do not constitute a new edition. Only if this version is especially mentioned in the title or in sales promotion, a new ISBN has to be used."
As for other "book-like products":
B. Non-Printed Books 4 • Educational, video and transparencies. • Books on cassettes or CDs (talking books) • Microform publications • Electronic publications: - Machine-readable tapes - Diskettes - CD-ROMs (except sound recordings) - Internet publications
anyway, there is much more detail on what is and is not eligible for isbn at the international site. Maps, though, are clearly cool.
7Rule42
Hi sabreader,
In finding those two official ISBN web sites it would appear that you were able to answer your own questions posed in the OP that started this thread. The whole point of my satire is that if you give people a simple concept there is always going to be some dunderheads out there that will manage to completely corrupt and pervert it for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
History is replete with such examples - the essentially Essene spiritual message of Christ was totally corrupted by the later materialistic machinations of the RC church (and other Christian churches beyond the Reformation), while the essentially cooperative and communal social theories of Marx and Engels were completely taken over and perverted by the greedy power goals of the Russian state to produce a totally abhorrent totalitarian system. In the end, both those resultant behemoth religious and political systems represented almost the complete opposite of what the initial founding groups passionately believed in and advocated.
To relate this point directly back to LT, the concept and purpose of this web site is actually very straightforward and cool. However, because the definition of what actually constitutes a 'book' leads to the more complex concept of a 'work' this then opens up the topic of whether audio books and magazines / periodicals / comics should also be catalogued here. Both of those extensions are valid discussion points - but they also take us onto a very slippery slope from which there is no recovery (as on all other slippery slopes!). Because audio books come in cassette tape and CD formats, there are now numbskulls on this web site that have already catalogued their entire musical and video collections here. Enter 'Bob Dylan' or 'Eric Clapton' into the 'author' field of the 'Search' page and you'll discover that 456 members own 606 books written by Bob Dylan and 20 members own 99 books written by Eric Clapton. Which I am sure is news to both Bob and Eric! It certainly was to me. :(
Similarly, because sheet music, magazines, comics and pornography all come printed on bound paper pages that are marketed with distinct titles (i.e., they, too, represent individual printed 'works' that can be manually entered into LT) you'll also find representative titles of all of those items currently catalogued here. Thus LT is now already flat on its ass and gathering momentum as it scoots down its own created slippery slope. bookishbunny took us onto an entirely new precipitous decline down this slope by confusing anything with a GS1 compatible supply chain code that can be optically scanned with an actual ISBN (which are also bar-coded, with the new 13-digit ones also being GS1 compatible).
LibraryThing is not alone in this malignancy; eBay suffered a similar transition before it. What started as a neat way for small collectors (of actual collectibles) to network together with each other in order to trade those rare, hard-to-find items (that are of too little value to make it to auction houses such as Sotheby's or Christie's) has similarly been converted by the need to expand its markets, in order to satisfy the demands of eBay investors, into what is now the world's biggest yard sale where people sell junk to each other not just nationally, but also internationally. Hence today, any redneck anywhere in the world that can find a source of dilapidated books under his grandmother's kitchen sink or in his local dumpster, can now become a power bookseller on eBay. :(
Your introduction of the topic of greeting cards and maps having ISBNs in your OP struck me as the next steep incline on this slippery slope LT is traversing. Although you didn't mention that you intend to catalogue such items here, of course there are bound to be some lamebrains out there in cyberspace who are going to do exactly that! In a few months' time I'm quite sure that we are all going to find those wonderfully creative and well-known writers Hallmark and Rand McNally vying up there with William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Elton John and Waylon Jennings for LT's accolade as the most popular and widely-read author on this web site. I am equally sure there will also emerge discussion groups on this very message board consisting of people that wish to compare and contrast with a passion the literary works of Jerry Lee Lewis and Mercator. Hopefully I will have slit my own throat long before the Nobel committee is forced to award its coveted prize for literature to Stan Lee due to overwhelming popular demand from all the highly discriminating worldwide 'cataloguers' on this site!
In finding those two official ISBN web sites it would appear that you were able to answer your own questions posed in the OP that started this thread. The whole point of my satire is that if you give people a simple concept there is always going to be some dunderheads out there that will manage to completely corrupt and pervert it for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
History is replete with such examples - the essentially Essene spiritual message of Christ was totally corrupted by the later materialistic machinations of the RC church (and other Christian churches beyond the Reformation), while the essentially cooperative and communal social theories of Marx and Engels were completely taken over and perverted by the greedy power goals of the Russian state to produce a totally abhorrent totalitarian system. In the end, both those resultant behemoth religious and political systems represented almost the complete opposite of what the initial founding groups passionately believed in and advocated.
To relate this point directly back to LT, the concept and purpose of this web site is actually very straightforward and cool. However, because the definition of what actually constitutes a 'book' leads to the more complex concept of a 'work' this then opens up the topic of whether audio books and magazines / periodicals / comics should also be catalogued here. Both of those extensions are valid discussion points - but they also take us onto a very slippery slope from which there is no recovery (as on all other slippery slopes!). Because audio books come in cassette tape and CD formats, there are now numbskulls on this web site that have already catalogued their entire musical and video collections here. Enter 'Bob Dylan' or 'Eric Clapton' into the 'author' field of the 'Search' page and you'll discover that 456 members own 606 books written by Bob Dylan and 20 members own 99 books written by Eric Clapton. Which I am sure is news to both Bob and Eric! It certainly was to me. :(
Similarly, because sheet music, magazines, comics and pornography all come printed on bound paper pages that are marketed with distinct titles (i.e., they, too, represent individual printed 'works' that can be manually entered into LT) you'll also find representative titles of all of those items currently catalogued here. Thus LT is now already flat on its ass and gathering momentum as it scoots down its own created slippery slope. bookishbunny took us onto an entirely new precipitous decline down this slope by confusing anything with a GS1 compatible supply chain code that can be optically scanned with an actual ISBN (which are also bar-coded, with the new 13-digit ones also being GS1 compatible).
LibraryThing is not alone in this malignancy; eBay suffered a similar transition before it. What started as a neat way for small collectors (of actual collectibles) to network together with each other in order to trade those rare, hard-to-find items (that are of too little value to make it to auction houses such as Sotheby's or Christie's) has similarly been converted by the need to expand its markets, in order to satisfy the demands of eBay investors, into what is now the world's biggest yard sale where people sell junk to each other not just nationally, but also internationally. Hence today, any redneck anywhere in the world that can find a source of dilapidated books under his grandmother's kitchen sink or in his local dumpster, can now become a power bookseller on eBay. :(
Your introduction of the topic of greeting cards and maps having ISBNs in your OP struck me as the next steep incline on this slippery slope LT is traversing. Although you didn't mention that you intend to catalogue such items here, of course there are bound to be some lamebrains out there in cyberspace who are going to do exactly that! In a few months' time I'm quite sure that we are all going to find those wonderfully creative and well-known writers Hallmark and Rand McNally vying up there with William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Elton John and Waylon Jennings for LT's accolade as the most popular and widely-read author on this web site. I am equally sure there will also emerge discussion groups on this very message board consisting of people that wish to compare and contrast with a passion the literary works of Jerry Lee Lewis and Mercator. Hopefully I will have slit my own throat long before the Nobel committee is forced to award its coveted prize for literature to Stan Lee due to overwhelming popular demand from all the highly discriminating worldwide 'cataloguers' on this site!
8bookishbunny
Wow, Rule42, you do need a chill pill.
I only called it an ISBN because "ISBN" was written before the number. Jeez.
I only called it an ISBN because "ISBN" was written before the number. Jeez.
9Rule42
Bags, clocks, and Christmas ornaments are NOT encoded with ISBNs, my dear, so you will NOT find "ISBN" written before the GS1 bar codes on such items. Thank you for your numbskullery. Perhaps you need to develop a sense of humor rather than resorting to personal attacks.
10sabreader
Actually the ISBN sites do not really answer my question about how the decision was made to include maps in the whole system, though it does give a definition. In fact, I was not aware of these sites when I posted my question.
Please do rest assured that I have no plans to catalogue any of my hallmark cards... I thought it was rather bizarre that they had ISBNs, and wondered why that was so.
It seems that in addition to the chill pill, mr 42 is in dire need of some kind of wall to keep out the barbarians. I'm surprised he didn't start railing against books by people like J.K.Rowling and Lurleen McDaniel, romance novels, children's board books and other such low-brow literature. It may not be pleasing to his high aesthetic sensibility that "authors" such as Rand McNally, Mercator, and Betty Crocker show up in LT, but such is the nature of our world.
As for maps, I will continue to enter my map collection into LT, Rand McNally, National Geographic, and American Automobile Association alongside the great cartographers and authors of "real" books. And FYI, maps are actually already catalogued and present in the catalogues of the Library of Congress, the Canadian National Library, the British Library, etc, so you don't even have to manually enter most of them.
And maybe, just to tick you off, I will start entering all those Hallmark cards... although even if I did so, I doubt that would actually result in your feared result, to completely corrupt and pervert it for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
In fact, I don't see how any of the things you've mentioned detract in any way from the stated goal of LT: LibraryThing is an online service to help people catalog their books easily.
But I guess this is about other things.
Please do rest assured that I have no plans to catalogue any of my hallmark cards... I thought it was rather bizarre that they had ISBNs, and wondered why that was so.
It seems that in addition to the chill pill, mr 42 is in dire need of some kind of wall to keep out the barbarians. I'm surprised he didn't start railing against books by people like J.K.Rowling and Lurleen McDaniel, romance novels, children's board books and other such low-brow literature. It may not be pleasing to his high aesthetic sensibility that "authors" such as Rand McNally, Mercator, and Betty Crocker show up in LT, but such is the nature of our world.
As for maps, I will continue to enter my map collection into LT, Rand McNally, National Geographic, and American Automobile Association alongside the great cartographers and authors of "real" books. And FYI, maps are actually already catalogued and present in the catalogues of the Library of Congress, the Canadian National Library, the British Library, etc, so you don't even have to manually enter most of them.
And maybe, just to tick you off, I will start entering all those Hallmark cards... although even if I did so, I doubt that would actually result in your feared result, to completely corrupt and pervert it for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
In fact, I don't see how any of the things you've mentioned detract in any way from the stated goal of LT: LibraryThing is an online service to help people catalog their books easily.
But I guess this is about other things.
11bookishbunny
>#9
It said "ISBN" on the B&N site. That is what I was referring to. The items are considered 'Other Format'. An example:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&cds2Pid=1281...
As far as making personal attacks goes, I believe there is a saying somewhere out there about glass houses (numbskullery, indeed).
Edited to clarify which post I'm answering.
It said "ISBN" on the B&N site. That is what I was referring to. The items are considered 'Other Format'. An example:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&cds2Pid=1281...
As far as making personal attacks goes, I believe there is a saying somewhere out there about glass houses (numbskullery, indeed).
Edited to clarify which post I'm answering.
13sabreader
#9> One more thing. I just stopped by our local bookstore. I looked at the bottom of a coffee mug that was for sale. There I saw a price sticker. With a bar code and the corresponding bar code number.
But on the sticker was another set of numbers: the letters ISBN with an actual ISBN number after them.
So yes, unfortunately, non-content items do seem to have ISBN numbers. I can only hope they are not "official" ones, though my guess is that publishers can assign their own ISBN numbers to whatever they want.
But on the sticker was another set of numbers: the letters ISBN with an actual ISBN number after them.
So yes, unfortunately, non-content items do seem to have ISBN numbers. I can only hope they are not "official" ones, though my guess is that publishers can assign their own ISBN numbers to whatever they want.
14marmot
I too think its bizarre that coffee mugs can have ISBN #s! I had no idea.
For me the slippery slope of Library Thing is my own personal slide into hours of obsessive cataloging. Its fun and satisfying in its own way, but do I really want to open that big box of maps and enter them all? Since most of them don't have ISBN numbers, I have avoided it.
Maybe it makes no sense to catalog maps on LibraryThing, but since there is no MapThing website, why not?
For me the slippery slope of Library Thing is my own personal slide into hours of obsessive cataloging. Its fun and satisfying in its own way, but do I really want to open that big box of maps and enter them all? Since most of them don't have ISBN numbers, I have avoided it.
Maybe it makes no sense to catalog maps on LibraryThing, but since there is no MapThing website, why not?
16Rule42
>11 bookishbunny:
Whenever I do an ISBN search on the Barnes & Noble web site with the number '1400650828' I repeatedly get the message:
Sorry. We did not find any books that match your search.
So I'm afraid that link you posted doesn't do anything to further your case, bookishbunny. WRT "personal attacks" I was referring to your "Wow, Rule42, you do need a chill pill" comment. It didn't bother me at all; I was merely pointing out that name calling is no way to successfully argue your case. Both of my previous longer posts here were made as talking-points with the primary intent to amuse. You seem to be the one taking things far too seriously and in need of a little chilling.
I still have yet to personally see a non-book item encoded with a 10-digit ISBN bar code (as opposed to a 13-digit GS1 supply chain bar code) but since both you and sabreader have reported the existence of such items I will accept your word for it that such items exist. The rest of your post is addressed below together with my response (which I wrote before writing this) to sabreader.
>11 bookishbunny: & 13
In the immortal words of that Pulitzer award-winning author and cartographer Jimmy Buffett, "We are the people our parents warned us about." Or perhaps more correctly, B&N bar coders are the people our parents warned us about! :( OK, I stand corrected, apparently there exists out there in the world clocks, bags and mugs that are labeled with ISBN bar code stickers. I believe you sabreader and bookishbunny. But why is that OK in your opinion?
In life, sometimes things are not always what they appear to be at first sight. Just because someone has a sign fixed to his ass saying "Kick me" doesn't necessarily mean that he actually wants people to kick him. Try looking a little further for the explanation for why mugs and Christmas ornaments are being labeled with ISBN bar code stickers. For instance, how about taking a trip down to the nearest offices of Little, Brown & Company or Macmillan or Harper & Row and asking to see the person in charge of manufacturing bags - or, even better, ask if you can see the bags coming off the production line - and then reporting back here how they treat you? :)
Alternatively, you might want to try buying one of those ISBN bar coded coffee cups from your local bookseller and then visiting the Library of Congress with it and asking the librarian staff there, after you have shown them the mug, what the LCC call number for it is. If you do, please also report that experience back here. It's been a long while since I visited this nation's national library - maybe "the times they are a'changin' " (I think Arthur H. Robinson once wrote that) and the LC now has its stacks and shelves full of handbags, clocks and Christmas ornaments!
To a person who only has a hammer everything looks like a nail. Could it just possibly be that to a minimum-wage person in Barnes & Noble with an ISBN bar code labeling gun everything looks like a book? Even if the directive to assign ISBNs to mugs, bags and clocks is coming down from B&N management, does that make it right? Why do you both assume that mugs having ISBN codes is some kind of natural progression in the planned worldwide use of ISBNs? Rather than being the result of a change of strategic direction by the International Standards Organization (ISO) might it not instead simply be indicative of the fact that your local book store is staffed by clueless idiots?
What you have both reported here regarding mugs and other items encoded with ISBNs only supports 100% the point of my previous post that any group of mindless dunderheads can, if given the opportunity, completely corrupt and pervert any good scheme for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
It sounds to me that we probably now need to make some more room on the Golgafrinchamian transport ship in order to accommodate the B&N barcoders in addition to the English teachers that cannot punctuate and the telephone sanitizers! sighs
Whenever I do an ISBN search on the Barnes & Noble web site with the number '1400650828' I repeatedly get the message:
Sorry. We did not find any books that match your search.
So I'm afraid that link you posted doesn't do anything to further your case, bookishbunny. WRT "personal attacks" I was referring to your "Wow, Rule42, you do need a chill pill" comment. It didn't bother me at all; I was merely pointing out that name calling is no way to successfully argue your case. Both of my previous longer posts here were made as talking-points with the primary intent to amuse. You seem to be the one taking things far too seriously and in need of a little chilling.
I still have yet to personally see a non-book item encoded with a 10-digit ISBN bar code (as opposed to a 13-digit GS1 supply chain bar code) but since both you and sabreader have reported the existence of such items I will accept your word for it that such items exist. The rest of your post is addressed below together with my response (which I wrote before writing this) to sabreader.
>11 bookishbunny: & 13
In the immortal words of that Pulitzer award-winning author and cartographer Jimmy Buffett, "We are the people our parents warned us about." Or perhaps more correctly, B&N bar coders are the people our parents warned us about! :( OK, I stand corrected, apparently there exists out there in the world clocks, bags and mugs that are labeled with ISBN bar code stickers. I believe you sabreader and bookishbunny. But why is that OK in your opinion?
In life, sometimes things are not always what they appear to be at first sight. Just because someone has a sign fixed to his ass saying "Kick me" doesn't necessarily mean that he actually wants people to kick him. Try looking a little further for the explanation for why mugs and Christmas ornaments are being labeled with ISBN bar code stickers. For instance, how about taking a trip down to the nearest offices of Little, Brown & Company or Macmillan or Harper & Row and asking to see the person in charge of manufacturing bags - or, even better, ask if you can see the bags coming off the production line - and then reporting back here how they treat you? :)
Alternatively, you might want to try buying one of those ISBN bar coded coffee cups from your local bookseller and then visiting the Library of Congress with it and asking the librarian staff there, after you have shown them the mug, what the LCC call number for it is. If you do, please also report that experience back here. It's been a long while since I visited this nation's national library - maybe "the times they are a'changin' " (I think Arthur H. Robinson once wrote that) and the LC now has its stacks and shelves full of handbags, clocks and Christmas ornaments!
To a person who only has a hammer everything looks like a nail. Could it just possibly be that to a minimum-wage person in Barnes & Noble with an ISBN bar code labeling gun everything looks like a book? Even if the directive to assign ISBNs to mugs, bags and clocks is coming down from B&N management, does that make it right? Why do you both assume that mugs having ISBN codes is some kind of natural progression in the planned worldwide use of ISBNs? Rather than being the result of a change of strategic direction by the International Standards Organization (ISO) might it not instead simply be indicative of the fact that your local book store is staffed by clueless idiots?
What you have both reported here regarding mugs and other items encoded with ISBNs only supports 100% the point of my previous post that any group of mindless dunderheads can, if given the opportunity, completely corrupt and pervert any good scheme for their own inane selfish purposes and thereby render the original concept almost totally useless or unmanageable for the instigators.
It sounds to me that we probably now need to make some more room on the Golgafrinchamian transport ship in order to accommodate the B&N barcoders in addition to the English teachers that cannot punctuate and the telephone sanitizers! sighs
17Rule42
>14 marmot:
"Maybe it makes no sense to catalog maps on LibraryThing, but since there is no MapThing website, why not?"
And indeed, why not, marmot? Why not, indeedy.
There is also no PornographyThing, CoasterThing, RecipeThing, or even a ALittleBitOfFluffIFoundInMyNavalThing either. So have at it and enjoy yourself, marmot. Who knows, thanks to the social aspects of this web site, it may even transpire that we both have similar tastes in dingleberries!
Wouldn't that be cool?
"Maybe it makes no sense to catalog maps on LibraryThing, but since there is no MapThing website, why not?"
And indeed, why not, marmot? Why not, indeedy.
There is also no PornographyThing, CoasterThing, RecipeThing, or even a ALittleBitOfFluffIFoundInMyNavalThing either. So have at it and enjoy yourself, marmot. Who knows, thanks to the social aspects of this web site, it may even transpire that we both have similar tastes in dingleberries!
Wouldn't that be cool?
18Thalia
Rule42: You're completely exaggerating. Just in case you don't know, libraries have been cataloging maps for a very long time. At my library we have a map collection of 300,000 maps and 400 atlases and all of them are cataloged. I absolutely don't understand what your problem is with cataloging maps.
On the other hand, I understand the aversion against greeting cards and mugs and whatever else has been mentioned. I can't even imagine why in the world they would have ISBNs (International Standard Book Number).
Maps are books of a kind so I understand why they have ISBNs.
But all in all, I'm with bookishbunny, you really need a chill pill and if your comments are intended as sarcasm, it doesn't come across. They do sound like insults and personal attacks.
On the other hand, I understand the aversion against greeting cards and mugs and whatever else has been mentioned. I can't even imagine why in the world they would have ISBNs (International Standard Book Number).
Maps are books of a kind so I understand why they have ISBNs.
But all in all, I'm with bookishbunny, you really need a chill pill and if your comments are intended as sarcasm, it doesn't come across. They do sound like insults and personal attacks.
19Rule42
Well, I guess the next site improvement LT needs to make is to add different colored fonts for indicating irony and satire! Perhaps you can pass me some of your own prescription chill pills, Thalia, after you have taken a few bottles yourself. :)
Actually I don't have a problem at all with most categories of 'maps' being catalogued on LT because I am fully aware that there are a considerable number of items that fall under the descriptive category 'maps' which are also bound books with ISBNs. But thanks for patronizing me anyway. I, too, own many historical, archaeological, anthropological, religious, sociological and geographical oriented atlases and encyclopaedias containing maps that are all clearly bound books (with or without ISBNs) that belong on any library bookshelf.
However there are 'maps' and there are 'maps'! The discussion point for this thread (at least one of the discussion points - the one I have responded to) was about whether or not to catalogue foldable car maps (since they are printed, bound and have ISBNs and you can buy them in B&N), and NOT about the merits of cataloguing The Times Atlas of World History or an antique cartography collection of Mercator's maps. The overriding theme I have responded to on this thread is: "if it has a scannable bar code and/or is otherwise 'cataloguable' (and I hereby claim the copyright to that word) then it belongs on LT". I'm afraid I disagree with that viewpoint and have expressed myself accordingly - and without telling everyone I disagree with to go take a chill pill (except right back at them).
I don't care what people catalogue on LT, nor do I have any desire to dictate to them what they can and cannot catalogue here. As I have stated elsewhere, let them have at it. But I do have my own opinion what is appropriate to catalogue on LT (e.g., books of fiction and non-fiction, the latter including encyclopaedias, cartography and atlases) and what is inappropriate to catalogue on LT (e.g., mugs, handbags, Christmas ornaments, Waylon Jennings CDs, Hallmark cards, and A-Z gazetteers and street maps). Since that is my opinion and this message board is for sharing opinions, I decided to share it here in an as amusing manner as I could.
If you interpret any posted opinion contrary to your own as being a personal attack on you or your buddies then I'm afraid that is your problem, Thalia, and you need to work on that. The fact that you view the use of sarcasm and satire only in a pejorative light says much more about you than it does about me, and other readers will ken that. If you cannot make a post without resorting to self-righteous ad hominem fallacies then I suggest you refrain from posting until you get your chill pill prescription renewed. In other words, from now on, be nice, please.
Actually I don't have a problem at all with most categories of 'maps' being catalogued on LT because I am fully aware that there are a considerable number of items that fall under the descriptive category 'maps' which are also bound books with ISBNs. But thanks for patronizing me anyway. I, too, own many historical, archaeological, anthropological, religious, sociological and geographical oriented atlases and encyclopaedias containing maps that are all clearly bound books (with or without ISBNs) that belong on any library bookshelf.
However there are 'maps' and there are 'maps'! The discussion point for this thread (at least one of the discussion points - the one I have responded to) was about whether or not to catalogue foldable car maps (since they are printed, bound and have ISBNs and you can buy them in B&N), and NOT about the merits of cataloguing The Times Atlas of World History or an antique cartography collection of Mercator's maps. The overriding theme I have responded to on this thread is: "if it has a scannable bar code and/or is otherwise 'cataloguable' (and I hereby claim the copyright to that word) then it belongs on LT". I'm afraid I disagree with that viewpoint and have expressed myself accordingly - and without telling everyone I disagree with to go take a chill pill (except right back at them).
I don't care what people catalogue on LT, nor do I have any desire to dictate to them what they can and cannot catalogue here. As I have stated elsewhere, let them have at it. But I do have my own opinion what is appropriate to catalogue on LT (e.g., books of fiction and non-fiction, the latter including encyclopaedias, cartography and atlases) and what is inappropriate to catalogue on LT (e.g., mugs, handbags, Christmas ornaments, Waylon Jennings CDs, Hallmark cards, and A-Z gazetteers and street maps). Since that is my opinion and this message board is for sharing opinions, I decided to share it here in an as amusing manner as I could.
If you interpret any posted opinion contrary to your own as being a personal attack on you or your buddies then I'm afraid that is your problem, Thalia, and you need to work on that. The fact that you view the use of sarcasm and satire only in a pejorative light says much more about you than it does about me, and other readers will ken that. If you cannot make a post without resorting to self-righteous ad hominem fallacies then I suggest you refrain from posting until you get your chill pill prescription renewed. In other words, from now on, be nice, please.
20andyl
I think you are in the minority as regards A-Z gazetteers and foldable maps. All my A-Zs, all my Ordnance Survey maps, and even my map of Ankh-Morpork have real ISBNs.
The Ankh-Morpork map and my London A-Z are found in the Oxford University catalogue. The OS maps aren't (or at least my editions aren't) but they are found in the British Library catalogue. If maps and A-Zs are deemed acceptable for those two organisations who am I (or indeed you) to argue?
The Ankh-Morpork map and my London A-Z are found in the Oxford University catalogue. The OS maps aren't (or at least my editions aren't) but they are found in the British Library catalogue. If maps and A-Zs are deemed acceptable for those two organisations who am I (or indeed you) to argue?
21Thalia
Rule42: I apologize if I came across as patronizing (and whatever else you called me in your last paragraph). I wrote my message at 2am after a night out, and I should know better than to do that...
I also realize I wasn't absolutely clear in my message. I am in favor of cataloging maps, but against cataloging mugs, t-shirts, Hallmark cards and whatever else that has an ISBN for some weird reason.
So my point was that you can't lump everything together that isn't a book. That was actually all I wanted to say. I tried to defend maps.
There are certainly parts of your messages that I find highly amusing, and NOT ONLY the ones I agree with, and I loved your "tinkle" conversation with morphidae on another thread. But there are also other parts that I maintain sound insulting, no matter if I agree with the point you're making or not. You may not mean them to be insulting, but sarcasm on the internet or in writing in general can be tricky. And I don't think the reason for that is that English isn't my native language and some of the meaning may be lost on me. I read through the messages again and I wasn't the only one who thought you needed to chill. And if your last paragraph wasn't a personal attack on me, then I don't know what is... Sure, I deserved criticism for my entry, but I think you're going a little too far. I agree that I wasn't nice and I do apologize for that. I will never write messages after midnight anymore.
Okay, I'll bow out now. I have taken my chill pill and hope you will pick up yours. I set some aside for you.
I also realize I wasn't absolutely clear in my message. I am in favor of cataloging maps, but against cataloging mugs, t-shirts, Hallmark cards and whatever else that has an ISBN for some weird reason.
So my point was that you can't lump everything together that isn't a book. That was actually all I wanted to say. I tried to defend maps.
There are certainly parts of your messages that I find highly amusing, and NOT ONLY the ones I agree with, and I loved your "tinkle" conversation with morphidae on another thread. But there are also other parts that I maintain sound insulting, no matter if I agree with the point you're making or not. You may not mean them to be insulting, but sarcasm on the internet or in writing in general can be tricky. And I don't think the reason for that is that English isn't my native language and some of the meaning may be lost on me. I read through the messages again and I wasn't the only one who thought you needed to chill. And if your last paragraph wasn't a personal attack on me, then I don't know what is... Sure, I deserved criticism for my entry, but I think you're going a little too far. I agree that I wasn't nice and I do apologize for that. I will never write messages after midnight anymore.
Okay, I'll bow out now. I have taken my chill pill and hope you will pick up yours. I set some aside for you.
22bookishbunny
#16
Rule42, I was only pointing out that it exists. I was not assigning a moral value to the phenomenon. I didn't feel it warranted such attention and energy.
Rule42, I was only pointing out that it exists. I was not assigning a moral value to the phenomenon. I didn't feel it warranted such attention and energy.
23Rule42
>21 Thalia:
Thalia, your apology is warmly accepted but there actually was no need for one. Really.
I wrote my message at 2am after a night out, and I should know better than to do that...
Oh, I fully understand. After you've been up most of the night posting on those raunchy hot porno and BDSM sex sites it really is quite difficult to readjust the tone and timbre of your posting back down to a level more appropriate to a boring old bookish site like LT, isn't it? So I really do understand where you're coming from. :)
I am in favor of cataloging maps, but against cataloging mugs, t-shirts, Hallmark cards and whatever else that has an ISBN for some weird reason.
Then we're totally in agreement on that point, aren't we?
So my point was that you can't lump everything together that isn't a book ... I tried to defend maps.
And my point is that not ALL maps are books (regardless of whether they have an ISBN or not). If you keep the item on a bookshelf then it probably belongs catalogued on LT. But if you keep it in the trunk of your car, or in your car's glove compartment, or even in your handbag, then it probably isn't really LT material any more than Eric Clapton tapes and CDs, mugs and Christmas ornaments.
I loved your "tinkle" conversation with morphidae on another thread ...
And that conversation is still ongoing ... just not on that thread!
You may not mean them to be insulting, but sarcasm on the internet or in writing in general can be tricky.
Indeed it is. But that has never stopped Mark Twain, Douglas Adams, George Carlin or David Sedaris (to name just a few). And it probably won't stop me either. BTW, satire and sarcasm can be very tricky when delivered in person, too, particularly if that person is a nincompoop. And that might be our problem here. In real life one doesn't normally come face to face with nincompoops, and if one does, you normally make sure that it doesn't happen again. But those very same nincompoops you make sure you eradicate from your real life so you don't have to deal with them are still all free to go off and get LT accounts under anonymous handles and post on the LT message board. I'm afraid there's nothing I or anybody else can do about that. :(
And if your last paragraph wasn't a personal attack on me, then I don't know what is...
No, it was a response to your personal attack on me. To respond to someone's post with the comment, "you need to chill out" or "you need to take a chill pill" or "chill pill anybody ..." or any other variant of that expression is a passive-aggressive ad hominem attack. Such a comment has absolutely nothing to do with addressing the argument that person wishes to counter in an intelligent manner, but instead it is simply designed to try and win brownie points by casting aspersions on the other poster. If you can win the reading audience over to your side of a debate by alienating the previous poster in their minds with a carefully thrown in "chill" comment so as to make him or her look like some blathering, emotional sociopath, then that presumably lets you off having to actually come up with a cogent counter argument. Which is pretty much the case here. I was very disappointed to see that you also resorted to such p-a cheap shots too - particularly since you and I hold close to the same opinion on this matter.
... I think you're going a little too far.
Why am I going a little too far? All I did was use satire to show how ridiculous some people behave on this web site (by cataloguing their video and musical collections and other non-book items on LT) and similarly to demonstrate how stupid it is to take the over-simplistic stance that if something has an ISBN that it must therefore be a book (which is FALSE), and furthermore, that if a non-book item does have an ISBN then that is perfectly OK (which is also FALSE - that's a SNAFU caused by the kind of people that belong on Golgafrinchamian transport ships). If people are offended by that viewpoint then like others that cannot take the heat, they should stay out of the kitchen.
I will never write messages after midnight anymore.
Oh, don't be so hard on yourself, Madame Librarian! Please feel free to put on your leather catsuit and thigh-high boots crack your whip here on the LT MB any time you want - I'll still read and respond to your posts even if no one else will! :)
I have taken my chill pill and hope you will pick up yours. I set some aside for you.
Oh, no need for that, Thalia, I buy mine in bulk over the internet from Canadians. We Americans get all our good drugs that way. :) BTW, they taste really good with Muesli.
Thalia, your apology is warmly accepted but there actually was no need for one. Really.
I wrote my message at 2am after a night out, and I should know better than to do that...
Oh, I fully understand. After you've been up most of the night posting on those raunchy hot porno and BDSM sex sites it really is quite difficult to readjust the tone and timbre of your posting back down to a level more appropriate to a boring old bookish site like LT, isn't it? So I really do understand where you're coming from. :)
I am in favor of cataloging maps, but against cataloging mugs, t-shirts, Hallmark cards and whatever else that has an ISBN for some weird reason.
Then we're totally in agreement on that point, aren't we?
So my point was that you can't lump everything together that isn't a book ... I tried to defend maps.
And my point is that not ALL maps are books (regardless of whether they have an ISBN or not). If you keep the item on a bookshelf then it probably belongs catalogued on LT. But if you keep it in the trunk of your car, or in your car's glove compartment, or even in your handbag, then it probably isn't really LT material any more than Eric Clapton tapes and CDs, mugs and Christmas ornaments.
I loved your "tinkle" conversation with morphidae on another thread ...
And that conversation is still ongoing ... just not on that thread!
You may not mean them to be insulting, but sarcasm on the internet or in writing in general can be tricky.
Indeed it is. But that has never stopped Mark Twain, Douglas Adams, George Carlin or David Sedaris (to name just a few). And it probably won't stop me either. BTW, satire and sarcasm can be very tricky when delivered in person, too, particularly if that person is a nincompoop. And that might be our problem here. In real life one doesn't normally come face to face with nincompoops, and if one does, you normally make sure that it doesn't happen again. But those very same nincompoops you make sure you eradicate from your real life so you don't have to deal with them are still all free to go off and get LT accounts under anonymous handles and post on the LT message board. I'm afraid there's nothing I or anybody else can do about that. :(
And if your last paragraph wasn't a personal attack on me, then I don't know what is...
No, it was a response to your personal attack on me. To respond to someone's post with the comment, "you need to chill out" or "you need to take a chill pill" or "chill pill anybody ..." or any other variant of that expression is a passive-aggressive ad hominem attack. Such a comment has absolutely nothing to do with addressing the argument that person wishes to counter in an intelligent manner, but instead it is simply designed to try and win brownie points by casting aspersions on the other poster. If you can win the reading audience over to your side of a debate by alienating the previous poster in their minds with a carefully thrown in "chill" comment so as to make him or her look like some blathering, emotional sociopath, then that presumably lets you off having to actually come up with a cogent counter argument. Which is pretty much the case here. I was very disappointed to see that you also resorted to such p-a cheap shots too - particularly since you and I hold close to the same opinion on this matter.
... I think you're going a little too far.
Why am I going a little too far? All I did was use satire to show how ridiculous some people behave on this web site (by cataloguing their video and musical collections and other non-book items on LT) and similarly to demonstrate how stupid it is to take the over-simplistic stance that if something has an ISBN that it must therefore be a book (which is FALSE), and furthermore, that if a non-book item does have an ISBN then that is perfectly OK (which is also FALSE - that's a SNAFU caused by the kind of people that belong on Golgafrinchamian transport ships). If people are offended by that viewpoint then like others that cannot take the heat, they should stay out of the kitchen.
I will never write messages after midnight anymore.
Oh, don't be so hard on yourself, Madame Librarian! Please feel free to put on your leather catsuit and thigh-high boots crack your whip here on the LT MB any time you want - I'll still read and respond to your posts even if no one else will! :)
I have taken my chill pill and hope you will pick up yours. I set some aside for you.
Oh, no need for that, Thalia, I buy mine in bulk over the internet from Canadians. We Americans get all our good drugs that way. :) BTW, they taste really good with Muesli.
24sabreader
FYI, the Library of Congress catalogues all maps, not only those that are bound, but also including AAA, Rand McNally and other road and street maps, and assigns them LC call numbers. For example Rand McNally's road map of California published in 1990 has the LC call number G4361.P2 1990 .R31
25melannen
I'm planning to do a lot of map cataloging this weekend. (The ones I don't want to keep will become either Christmas presents or wrapping paper...) Considering that the vast majority of my maps (including the RandMcNally road maps, and yes, even the tourist maps of Zurich and the ones that originally came free from gas stations) were acquired after my university's library withdrew them, I don't see how they are inappropriate for putting in LT, even if they don't have ISBNs! After all, it's LibraryThing, not BookThing!
And yes, I've seriously considered cataloging some of my other ephemera, like pamphlets and posters and programs from plays and collections of newspaper clippings and, yes, old greeting cards. Because all of my favorite public libraries have at least some of those things, and for very good reason.
And yes, I've seriously considered cataloging some of my other ephemera, like pamphlets and posters and programs from plays and collections of newspaper clippings and, yes, old greeting cards. Because all of my favorite public libraries have at least some of those things, and for very good reason.
26bookishbunny
And let's not forget: LibraryThing is a tool for individuals. Tag clouds, the Suggester, the forums, etc., are all really great, but, when cataloguing my library, I'm not thinking, "Ooh, this will really make some one's day." If I feel that my collection of witty, artistic, and enlightening Boxing Day cards are worthy of cataloguing (since I probably would keep them at least near the books), then I'm going to do it. If I think my mug with a portrait of Van Gogh and his disappearing ear is shelf-worthy, then I'm going to put it in my catalogue. It's my own freakin' library and I'll fill it with what I choose, and I will not be bullied by the verbose rantings of any fellow LTer.
::huff, puff::
::huff, puff::
27Rule42
Without wanting to be a pedant, sabreader, I would very much challenge your statement that the LC catalogues ALL maps. That's pure hyperbole. Possibly you meant ALL maps published in the United States? And I would also question the veracity of that statement (but I don't have any specific proof to the contrary). If you said, "MOST maps published in the USA after the early fifties include LC call numbers" then I don't think I would disagree with that statement.
BTW, we seem to have digressed somewhat from your original post that started this thread and the questions you asked there, and if I'm guilty of causing that digression (which I probably am) then I apologize for that. That was not my intent. To return to your question 'What is the background to the shift whereby maps starting carrying ISBNs after about 1979/80?' are you absolutely sure that the shift began then?
The ISBN standardization process took effect around about 1974 (I state this because books I own that were published in 1974, or later, contain 10-digit ISBNs, while books I own prior to 1974 only contain 9-digit SBNs). I have heard it said that the ISO merely took the British / W.H.Smith SBN standard and then promoted its adoption internationally. If that is the case then the British, W.H.Smith, or whoever, clearly had an all-embracing international 10-digit scheme already defined and ready to go, because I know from my own library that the SBN system that was in use prior to ISBNs being introduced in 1974 only had 9 digits in it.
It has always been my understanding that what the ISO brought to the ISBN standardization process was much more than just the promotion of an already existing U.K. numbering scheme. The contribution of the ISO in the creation of the 10-digit ISBN was primarily in the definition and codification of a system for creating a fourth international country/language code prefix field for the legacy British 3-field 9-digit SBN, and then adopting this resultant four-field numbering philosophy to every country and/or language area in the world. (Note: the use of an ISBN to identify a newly published book is NOT, and NEVER has been, mandatory, but compliance to its defined format is mandatory should an ISBN be used.)
So to return to your 1979/80 timeframe, I don't know that anything significant actually happened then WRT including ISBNs on newly published material (maps, books or whatever). I believe that the watershed year for the transition from SBNs to ISBNs was 1974 (and it would be great if someone else could confirm that here - or correct that statement). Could it be possible that you only noticed this transition then, or do you actually own maps published in the period 1974-1979 that do not carry an ISBN?
WRT your other question in your OP about Hallmark cards also having ISBNs - "What's that about???" - well, you know I couldn't agree with you more on that observation. However, since greeting cards are mass-marketed printed matter frequently sold in the same outlets as popular mass-marketed paperback fiction (and yes, cheap street maps and gazetteers) then the eventual inclusion of them within the ISBN scheme was probably inevitable, if lamentably so. Greeting cards are indeed published (not manufactured) and some have many pages stapled inside of them making them possibly more complex than a simple car map, which I am sure was one of the arguments originally presented as to why greeting cards merited ISBNs too. Another case of slippery slopes IMHO.
One has to remember that it was a retail marketing interest - viz. W.H.Smith in the U.K. - that created the SBN, and subsequently the ISBN, in the first place. So I guess all the good that came from what the retail marketing of printed matter industry initially instigated (namely the internationally recognized ISBN and ISSN) can also be similarly corrupted by them too - along the principle of he that giveth can also taketh away (or, at least, completely phuck up)!
I do feel that the assigning of ISBNs to mugs, handbags and Christmas ornaments (and anything else that is clearly NOT published) is going way, way too far though. But that is how slippery slopes work! Personally, I would like to see someone take legal action against B&N if that is indeed what it's now doing. Justifying that it is OK to assign ISBNs to mugs because B&N does it is an ass-about-tit argument that completely begs the issue.
BTW, we seem to have digressed somewhat from your original post that started this thread and the questions you asked there, and if I'm guilty of causing that digression (which I probably am) then I apologize for that. That was not my intent. To return to your question 'What is the background to the shift whereby maps starting carrying ISBNs after about 1979/80?' are you absolutely sure that the shift began then?
The ISBN standardization process took effect around about 1974 (I state this because books I own that were published in 1974, or later, contain 10-digit ISBNs, while books I own prior to 1974 only contain 9-digit SBNs). I have heard it said that the ISO merely took the British / W.H.Smith SBN standard and then promoted its adoption internationally. If that is the case then the British, W.H.Smith, or whoever, clearly had an all-embracing international 10-digit scheme already defined and ready to go, because I know from my own library that the SBN system that was in use prior to ISBNs being introduced in 1974 only had 9 digits in it.
It has always been my understanding that what the ISO brought to the ISBN standardization process was much more than just the promotion of an already existing U.K. numbering scheme. The contribution of the ISO in the creation of the 10-digit ISBN was primarily in the definition and codification of a system for creating a fourth international country/language code prefix field for the legacy British 3-field 9-digit SBN, and then adopting this resultant four-field numbering philosophy to every country and/or language area in the world. (Note: the use of an ISBN to identify a newly published book is NOT, and NEVER has been, mandatory, but compliance to its defined format is mandatory should an ISBN be used.)
So to return to your 1979/80 timeframe, I don't know that anything significant actually happened then WRT including ISBNs on newly published material (maps, books or whatever). I believe that the watershed year for the transition from SBNs to ISBNs was 1974 (and it would be great if someone else could confirm that here - or correct that statement). Could it be possible that you only noticed this transition then, or do you actually own maps published in the period 1974-1979 that do not carry an ISBN?
WRT your other question in your OP about Hallmark cards also having ISBNs - "What's that about???" - well, you know I couldn't agree with you more on that observation. However, since greeting cards are mass-marketed printed matter frequently sold in the same outlets as popular mass-marketed paperback fiction (and yes, cheap street maps and gazetteers) then the eventual inclusion of them within the ISBN scheme was probably inevitable, if lamentably so. Greeting cards are indeed published (not manufactured) and some have many pages stapled inside of them making them possibly more complex than a simple car map, which I am sure was one of the arguments originally presented as to why greeting cards merited ISBNs too. Another case of slippery slopes IMHO.
One has to remember that it was a retail marketing interest - viz. W.H.Smith in the U.K. - that created the SBN, and subsequently the ISBN, in the first place. So I guess all the good that came from what the retail marketing of printed matter industry initially instigated (namely the internationally recognized ISBN and ISSN) can also be similarly corrupted by them too - along the principle of he that giveth can also taketh away (or, at least, completely phuck up)!
I do feel that the assigning of ISBNs to mugs, handbags and Christmas ornaments (and anything else that is clearly NOT published) is going way, way too far though. But that is how slippery slopes work! Personally, I would like to see someone take legal action against B&N if that is indeed what it's now doing. Justifying that it is OK to assign ISBNs to mugs because B&N does it is an ass-about-tit argument that completely begs the issue.
28sabreader
Let me rephrase that, what I meant to say is all types of maps, obviously they do not assign call numbers to all maps published everywhere in the world, or even to all maps published in the US. However, they do assign call numbers to street maps and roadmaps, including the ones I mention.
I only mention the date 1979 because that is the earliest map that I own that has an ISBN number; earlier ones that I have do not, so I am not sure of when that change took place, and was curious about it.
As for mugs, etc., I also think it is bizarre for them to have ISBNs, even moreso than hallmark cards, which I still find strange. I do see greeting cards as fundamentally different than maps; as far as I can tell, LC does not catalogue greeting cards.
I'd be interested to see the internal memos at B&N (or whoever assigns ISBN to such items) that would show the process that led to this situation. Though to be fair, it's not just B&N, it is whoever is supplying the mugs, because my local bookstore is a small independently-owned and operated store and I'm very sure they did not put the ISBN stickers on the bottom of the coffee mugs (which did at least have the likenesses of literary figures on them...).
I only mention the date 1979 because that is the earliest map that I own that has an ISBN number; earlier ones that I have do not, so I am not sure of when that change took place, and was curious about it.
As for mugs, etc., I also think it is bizarre for them to have ISBNs, even moreso than hallmark cards, which I still find strange. I do see greeting cards as fundamentally different than maps; as far as I can tell, LC does not catalogue greeting cards.
I'd be interested to see the internal memos at B&N (or whoever assigns ISBN to such items) that would show the process that led to this situation. Though to be fair, it's not just B&N, it is whoever is supplying the mugs, because my local bookstore is a small independently-owned and operated store and I'm very sure they did not put the ISBN stickers on the bottom of the coffee mugs (which did at least have the likenesses of literary figures on them...).
29timspalding
Wow do I not want to wade into this one—but I should say that Bookishbunny is right that LibraryThing is a tool for individuals. I would like to discourage criticism of people's cataloging (reviews, tags, etc.). Criticism should restrict itself to how those items roll up onto the global level—that is, it should be criticism of our programming.
As far as what can and can't be cataloged, keep this in mind. (1) The site is not well adapted for some media (eg., CDs), (2) the TOS has rules against cataloging items you haven't really interacted with (eg., all of Project Gutenberg), and (3) I think it would be too much to use manual entry to add items never found in library catalogs (eg., lightbulbs). But I want to draw a wide circle.
As far as what can and can't be cataloged, keep this in mind. (1) The site is not well adapted for some media (eg., CDs), (2) the TOS has rules against cataloging items you haven't really interacted with (eg., all of Project Gutenberg), and (3) I think it would be too much to use manual entry to add items never found in library catalogs (eg., lightbulbs). But I want to draw a wide circle.
30timspalding
My son has cataloged Monday the Bullfrog, which is basically a stuffed animal with a book in its mouth.
31Rule42
>29 timspalding:
Actually, sabreader, I was in error with that 1974 date stated in my previous post as the year for transition to ISBNs. It should be at least 1970 (and it may actually be earlier). I just went to a different set of shelves in my library (not my car's glove compartment!) and tried to find in some of my fiction books the same transition from SBN (or nothing) to ISBN as I had done earlier with some of my non-fiction books in order to come up with that previous 1974 date.
What I am hearing from you, sabreader, is that you own various kinds of maps that you purchased through the seventies, ALL of which do NOT include any ISBNs - with those said ISBNs only starting to appear on these maps around 1979 or so. Thus it took nearly a decade for your own genre of published maps to finally be treated in the same manner as published books (WRT having an ISBN) had been treated by the book publishing industry for the previous 9 or 10 years. Now, be honest with me here, does that fact support my own viewpoint regarding those kind of car maps (i.e., that they are somewhat marginal items when it comes to the contents of what is considered a traditional library) or your own viewpoint that they have always been considered an intrinsic part of any library from time immemorial? Think very carefully about that one. :)
When it comes to greetings cards, Clapton CDs, mugs and bags, etc. we are clearly both on the same side of the fence in holding that they are not typical library items by anyone's definition of such. When it comes to deciding whether a map (any kind of map) is a 'book' or an 'other format' item such as a mug or a Christmas ornament, then we are both also probably in the 'book camp.' Whether a map is a book, or only some maps are books, is probably a debate that belongs in the same category as whether there is a God or not. It might prove to be lots of fun (or alternatively lots of stress) but at the end of the day there probably isn't a right answer. And, unlike whether there is a God or not, it probably doesn't matter anyway. But I am quite sure there is bound to be someone out there that will insist on proving otherwise and hysterically claim that I am the anti-Christ for actually saying that.
Oh, WRT to B&N not actually putting the ISBN bar codes on the mugs as it's only the retailer, you are probably correct, since B&N also doesn't print the ISBNs on the dust jackets and proprietary info. pages of books published by, say, Putnam, Random House or Norton. OTOH, B&N is also now a publisher in its own right - it has published in hardcover (or has subcontracted the publishing of) a whole slew of the classic literature canon that it sells for a moderate price under its own name brand. Not to be outdone, I believe Borders has done likewise. B&N also republish hardcover editions of books that are out of print as hardcovers by the original publisher (although they may still be available in paperback format). I own a couple of Cecil Woodham-Smith history books (The Reason Why and The Great Hunger) that fall into this category. So Borders and B&N are both now book publishers as well as being book retailers.
I stated in another post that ISBNs are not mandatory on books. However, the big retailers such as W.H.Smith in the U.K. and Borders and B&N over here won't normally touch books without ISBNs since the ISBNs make inventory control that much easier (which is why W.H.Smith invented the SBN in the first place). So there are not going to be many publishers that are going to jeopardize their potential sales via large book retail chains by publishing a book without an ISBN. Therefore, even if it's some mug supplier that is actually putting the sticky ISBN labels on the bottom of its coffee mugs before shipping them off to your local bookstore in addition to Borders and B&N, nevertheless the demand that the mug supplier do that in the first place is still being driven directly from those large retail chain outlets. If the mug supplier didn't provide mugs with ISBN bar codes, B&N and Borders would buy them from an alternative supplier that did. All of the parties are somewhat culpable in creating the situation where mugs and bags are now assigned ISBNs, but B&N and Borders probably should take the bigger portion of the blame.
Actually, sabreader, I was in error with that 1974 date stated in my previous post as the year for transition to ISBNs. It should be at least 1970 (and it may actually be earlier). I just went to a different set of shelves in my library (not my car's glove compartment!) and tried to find in some of my fiction books the same transition from SBN (or nothing) to ISBN as I had done earlier with some of my non-fiction books in order to come up with that previous 1974 date.
What I am hearing from you, sabreader, is that you own various kinds of maps that you purchased through the seventies, ALL of which do NOT include any ISBNs - with those said ISBNs only starting to appear on these maps around 1979 or so. Thus it took nearly a decade for your own genre of published maps to finally be treated in the same manner as published books (WRT having an ISBN) had been treated by the book publishing industry for the previous 9 or 10 years. Now, be honest with me here, does that fact support my own viewpoint regarding those kind of car maps (i.e., that they are somewhat marginal items when it comes to the contents of what is considered a traditional library) or your own viewpoint that they have always been considered an intrinsic part of any library from time immemorial? Think very carefully about that one. :)
When it comes to greetings cards, Clapton CDs, mugs and bags, etc. we are clearly both on the same side of the fence in holding that they are not typical library items by anyone's definition of such. When it comes to deciding whether a map (any kind of map) is a 'book' or an 'other format' item such as a mug or a Christmas ornament, then we are both also probably in the 'book camp.' Whether a map is a book, or only some maps are books, is probably a debate that belongs in the same category as whether there is a God or not. It might prove to be lots of fun (or alternatively lots of stress) but at the end of the day there probably isn't a right answer. And, unlike whether there is a God or not, it probably doesn't matter anyway. But I am quite sure there is bound to be someone out there that will insist on proving otherwise and hysterically claim that I am the anti-Christ for actually saying that.
Oh, WRT to B&N not actually putting the ISBN bar codes on the mugs as it's only the retailer, you are probably correct, since B&N also doesn't print the ISBNs on the dust jackets and proprietary info. pages of books published by, say, Putnam, Random House or Norton. OTOH, B&N is also now a publisher in its own right - it has published in hardcover (or has subcontracted the publishing of) a whole slew of the classic literature canon that it sells for a moderate price under its own name brand. Not to be outdone, I believe Borders has done likewise. B&N also republish hardcover editions of books that are out of print as hardcovers by the original publisher (although they may still be available in paperback format). I own a couple of Cecil Woodham-Smith history books (The Reason Why and The Great Hunger) that fall into this category. So Borders and B&N are both now book publishers as well as being book retailers.
I stated in another post that ISBNs are not mandatory on books. However, the big retailers such as W.H.Smith in the U.K. and Borders and B&N over here won't normally touch books without ISBNs since the ISBNs make inventory control that much easier (which is why W.H.Smith invented the SBN in the first place). So there are not going to be many publishers that are going to jeopardize their potential sales via large book retail chains by publishing a book without an ISBN. Therefore, even if it's some mug supplier that is actually putting the sticky ISBN labels on the bottom of its coffee mugs before shipping them off to your local bookstore in addition to Borders and B&N, nevertheless the demand that the mug supplier do that in the first place is still being driven directly from those large retail chain outlets. If the mug supplier didn't provide mugs with ISBN bar codes, B&N and Borders would buy them from an alternative supplier that did. All of the parties are somewhat culpable in creating the situation where mugs and bags are now assigned ISBNs, but B&N and Borders probably should take the bigger portion of the blame.
32Rule42
>30 timspalding:
Or it might be considered to be a book with a stuffed animal attached. I'm not really sure that that item is in quite the same category as handbags and Christmas ornaments (whose only legitimate claim to being a library item lies in the fact that they once sat on a shelf in a retail store somewhere near a book). If being near a book turns something else into a book, then I guess I'm also a book (many times over).
I have to say that your son sounds a lot smarter than some of the adults currently cataloguing and posting on LT.
Or it might be considered to be a book with a stuffed animal attached. I'm not really sure that that item is in quite the same category as handbags and Christmas ornaments (whose only legitimate claim to being a library item lies in the fact that they once sat on a shelf in a retail store somewhere near a book). If being near a book turns something else into a book, then I guess I'm also a book (many times over).
I have to say that your son sounds a lot smarter than some of the adults currently cataloguing and posting on LT.
33sabreader
>32 Rule42:
they have always been considered an intrinsic part of any library from time immemorial?
I have never made that claim. However, going in to the Library of Congress catalogue, road maps of California, for example, are catalogued from 1940 onward. Of course perhaps they were acquired later, who knows.
I understand that road maps are not books. But if the Library of Congress sees fit to catalogue AAA and Rand McNally road maps, it seems hard to argue that they are not library materials.
In any event, this is really irrelevant, as Tim's comment above points out. One of the great things about LT is that I've finally been able to get a handle on all my maps, from my 1889 Ethnographische Karte von Makedonien und Alt-Serbien to the most recent and up-to-date road and street maps of places within the US as well as outside. They are now all catalogued, many with LC call numbers, and I no longer have to dig through drawers and boxes to see if I still have that street map of San Francisco that I bought 15 years ago.
they have always been considered an intrinsic part of any library from time immemorial?
I have never made that claim. However, going in to the Library of Congress catalogue, road maps of California, for example, are catalogued from 1940 onward. Of course perhaps they were acquired later, who knows.
I understand that road maps are not books. But if the Library of Congress sees fit to catalogue AAA and Rand McNally road maps, it seems hard to argue that they are not library materials.
In any event, this is really irrelevant, as Tim's comment above points out. One of the great things about LT is that I've finally been able to get a handle on all my maps, from my 1889 Ethnographische Karte von Makedonien und Alt-Serbien to the most recent and up-to-date road and street maps of places within the US as well as outside. They are now all catalogued, many with LC call numbers, and I no longer have to dig through drawers and boxes to see if I still have that street map of San Francisco that I bought 15 years ago.
34Rule42 
>26 bookishbunny:
::huff, puff::
Ranting is such exhausting work, isn't it? I did so love the way you accused others of ranting in the only post on this thread that is actually a rant! That was almost worthy of M.C.Escher. Of course, self-referentiality is at the heart of many false and illogical statements. I suggest you make room on your New Year's reading wish list for Russell and Whitehead's Principia Mathematica.
Alternatively, you could stick to cataloguing all your mugs, handbags and witty, artistic, and enlightening Boxing Day cards on LT ... it's more your style. :)
Van Gogh and his disappearing ear ??????
You make his personal tragedy sound like some carnival freak's magic act! How DO you do that? And why?
It's my own freakin' library ...
No shit, Sherlock!
... and I will not be bullied ...
Go ahead, make yourself into a victim, why don't ya?
::huff, puff::
Ranting is such exhausting work, isn't it? I did so love the way you accused others of ranting in the only post on this thread that is actually a rant! That was almost worthy of M.C.Escher. Of course, self-referentiality is at the heart of many false and illogical statements. I suggest you make room on your New Year's reading wish list for Russell and Whitehead's Principia Mathematica.
Alternatively, you could stick to cataloguing all your mugs, handbags and witty, artistic, and enlightening Boxing Day cards on LT ... it's more your style. :)
Van Gogh and his disappearing ear ??????
You make his personal tragedy sound like some carnival freak's magic act! How DO you do that? And why?
It's my own freakin' library ...
No shit, Sherlock!
... and I will not be bullied ...
Go ahead, make yourself into a victim, why don't ya?
35Rule42
>25 melannen:
I'm planning to do a lot of map cataloging this weekend. (The ones I don't want to keep will become either Christmas presents or wrapping paper...).
Oh WOW! Whoever said, "the true spirit of Christmas is dead" was totally wrong! My own somewhat cynical seasonal spirits were just given a tremendous boost by the sublime thought that this Christmas some super-lucky people will be receiving presents consisting of an old dog-eared A-Z carefully wrapped up in the well-thumbed pages of an unwanted AAA map. :)
I have to say, my faith in humanity has now been restored. Praise the Lord. Alleluhah!
I'm planning to do a lot of map cataloging this weekend. (The ones I don't want to keep will become either Christmas presents or wrapping paper...).
Oh WOW! Whoever said, "the true spirit of Christmas is dead" was totally wrong! My own somewhat cynical seasonal spirits were just given a tremendous boost by the sublime thought that this Christmas some super-lucky people will be receiving presents consisting of an old dog-eared A-Z carefully wrapped up in the well-thumbed pages of an unwanted AAA map. :)
I have to say, my faith in humanity has now been restored. Praise the Lord. Alleluhah!
36Rule42
>33 sabreader:
I have never made that claim.
No you haven't and it was a dirty, low-down trick on my part to put words in your mouth that you didn't say. I hate it when people do that to me and so I apologize for having done that.
One of the great things about LT is that I've finally been able to get a handle on all my maps ...
And some others appear to have been using it in order to get a handle on all of their mugs ...
Not meaning to detract in any way from LT's capabilities but you didn't need LT in order to catalogue your maps and books ... Access and Excel have been around for more than two decades. What intrigues me about LT are all its social implications ... the actual cataloguing feature is something I've done myself for years (as and when needed) via alternative means, and I seem to spend so much time fixing the auto-generated data LT gets from Amazon that it probably wouldn't be my first choice as a cataloguing tool anyway.
What I think is LT's strongest feature is its ability to turn reading - which is inherently a solitary and somewhat anti-social activity - into a potential worldwide socializing and networking force. That's somewhat akin to the old Alchemists' dream of turning lead into gold ... only much bigger and grander IMO.
Finally, just being curious (a.k.a. nosey) here, sabreader, why so many maps? Do you just like maps or is your collection the result of some extensive globe-trotting?
I have never made that claim.
No you haven't and it was a dirty, low-down trick on my part to put words in your mouth that you didn't say. I hate it when people do that to me and so I apologize for having done that.
One of the great things about LT is that I've finally been able to get a handle on all my maps ...
And some others appear to have been using it in order to get a handle on all of their mugs ...
Not meaning to detract in any way from LT's capabilities but you didn't need LT in order to catalogue your maps and books ... Access and Excel have been around for more than two decades. What intrigues me about LT are all its social implications ... the actual cataloguing feature is something I've done myself for years (as and when needed) via alternative means, and I seem to spend so much time fixing the auto-generated data LT gets from Amazon that it probably wouldn't be my first choice as a cataloguing tool anyway.
What I think is LT's strongest feature is its ability to turn reading - which is inherently a solitary and somewhat anti-social activity - into a potential worldwide socializing and networking force. That's somewhat akin to the old Alchemists' dream of turning lead into gold ... only much bigger and grander IMO.
Finally, just being curious (a.k.a. nosey) here, sabreader, why so many maps? Do you just like maps or is your collection the result of some extensive globe-trotting?
37smellthecoffee
This thread has inspired me! If i can find it, i'm going to catalogue my "Late Show with David Letterman" coffee mug.
38bookishbunny
I'm going to catalogue my fuzzy Proust-head slippers!
39melannen
Hey, #35 : The kind of people *I* give presents to think that getting a vintage map of Georgia labeled in Georgian or a map of Europe produced for hikers in 1969 or a USGS topographic quadrant from their neighborhood dating to when their house was built is *awesome*. They also think that gifts don't have to gost a lot of money, and that non-boring wrapping paper can be pretty! If that bothers your faith in humanity, it's your loss, man.
You'd probably object to using them for wallpaper, too...
You'd probably object to using them for wallpaper, too...
40Rule42
>39 melannen:
You'd probably object to using them for wallpaper, too...
I actually find the concept of having my whole home wallpapered with maps quite a fascinating one. I can imagine myself in the bedroom dressed up as Napoleon, my arm tucked inside my waistcoat, planning my next European campaign. Or I could even grow a Charlie Chaplin moustache and goose-step around my dining room as I tore up Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper. If I wallpapered my living room with maps of Disney World I could even do my impersonation of George Bush. Standing in front of a wall depicting detailed plans of the community of tomorrow I could mastermind my final victory in the war on terror by fiendishly plotting the destruction of the Epicenter of Evil ...
Then, when my girlfriend comes home and catches me, and tells me to go stand in the corner of the room for a while in order to chill out (as she often does), I would know exactly where to go, and the quickest way to get there! :)
You'd probably object to using them for wallpaper, too...
I actually find the concept of having my whole home wallpapered with maps quite a fascinating one. I can imagine myself in the bedroom dressed up as Napoleon, my arm tucked inside my waistcoat, planning my next European campaign. Or I could even grow a Charlie Chaplin moustache and goose-step around my dining room as I tore up Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper. If I wallpapered my living room with maps of Disney World I could even do my impersonation of George Bush. Standing in front of a wall depicting detailed plans of the community of tomorrow I could mastermind my final victory in the war on terror by fiendishly plotting the destruction of the Epicenter of Evil ...
Then, when my girlfriend comes home and catches me, and tells me to go stand in the corner of the room for a while in order to chill out (as she often does), I would know exactly where to go, and the quickest way to get there! :)
41bookishbunny
#39
I love using maps as wallpaper! In my old studio, I had a bunch of those National Geographic ones papering my kitchen. The ocean blue was so pretty in the light (I had a lot of natural light in that kitchen) and the maps helped fuel my travel fantasies. I also like them for wrapping paper and origami cranes.
I love using maps as wallpaper! In my old studio, I had a bunch of those National Geographic ones papering my kitchen. The ocean blue was so pretty in the light (I had a lot of natural light in that kitchen) and the maps helped fuel my travel fantasies. I also like them for wrapping paper and origami cranes.
42melannen
Oh, hooray! I mentioned it because two walls of my childhood bedroom are papered in National Geographic maps - I'd love to do the whole thing, but the built-in bookshelves on the other walls get in the way. Some of those maps are thirty years out of date now, but it's still the best wallpaper ever.
...you know, if somebody on this site were having a discussion like this about books, I think many people would be vocally having to cover our eyes and moan in horror about people who would dare do that to books! People including me. Maps, though, tape 'em up, glue 'em to things, fold 'em into cranes, it's all the same to us! I guess it shows the site hasn't yet *entirely* drifted away from its intended purpose, huh.
...you know, if somebody on this site were having a discussion like this about books, I think many people would be vocally having to cover our eyes and moan in horror about people who would dare do that to books! People including me. Maps, though, tape 'em up, glue 'em to things, fold 'em into cranes, it's all the same to us! I guess it shows the site hasn't yet *entirely* drifted away from its intended purpose, huh.
43Rule42
>42 melannen: (hmm, that's an interesting number ...)
... I think many people would be vocally having to cover our eyes and moan in horror about people who would dare do that to books!
Ahem, might that possibly be because ... now how do I say this? ... errrmmm ... maps aren't books?
Just a thought. :)
... I think many people would be vocally having to cover our eyes and moan in horror about people who would dare do that to books!
Ahem, might that possibly be because ... now how do I say this? ... errrmmm ... maps aren't books?
Just a thought. :)
