ultb is not a good sign

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ultb is not a good sign

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1prosfilaes
apr 28, 2009, 11:38 pm

I picked up a book at a library for-sale shelf yesterday. Turns out that Old Faithful Murder: Yellowstone Mystery Series by Raymond Kieft is an ultb. Hmm. Considering it's a recent printing, either he's an as-yet-unknown diamond in the rough, or it really sucks. Amazon reviews are few and mixed, and the publisher is AuthorHouse, so I'm guessing sucks. Given the number of unread books sitting around my shelf, the question is, do I get rid of it now, or let it sit on my shelf until my future wife/my future husband/my rational mind/my insane mind tries to pare my library down to something reasonable?

2infiniteletters
Bewerkt: apr 29, 2009, 12:08 am

I'd read the 1st chapter or even the 1st page before tossing.

Edit: And by "tossing", I mean listing on Bookmooch.

3reading_fox
apr 29, 2009, 7:12 am

Definetly try first. Give it until at least 1/2way unless it's really really bad. But remember it got published, so someonone somewhere thought it would sell and make money.

Although LT is large it has yet to come anywhere near close to lisiting every book in existance, and some of the ones it doesn't list will be real gems..... not many, but some.

4prosfilaes
apr 29, 2009, 11:38 am

2> Tags: unread (518). Most of which are waiting for me to read their 1st chapter, and those that aren't (In Praise of Folly, Analects, Botchan) have established literary value.

5lorax
apr 29, 2009, 8:22 pm

3>

But remember it got published, so someonone somewhere thought it would sell and make money.

AuthorHouse is a vanity publisher, meaning the only "someone" here is the author -- the publisher makes all their money from the author.

6misericordia
Bewerkt: mei 18, 2009, 4:26 pm

Hmmm
Considering it's a recent printing, either he's an as-yet-unknown diamond in the rough, or it really sucks

Because, of course the 705,962 members of LibraryThing are clearly the premier arbitrator of taste and quality... Like .2% of US population?

meaning the only "someone" here is the author Who possible found it far easier to directly publish his work than find a agent, publisher, deal etc...

my future wife/my future husband/my rational mind/my insane mind Ahhh maybe you have some other things to think about, other than what books to keep?

7lorax
mei 18, 2009, 5:03 pm

6>

Sure. I'm not passing judgment. All I'm saying is that in the case of vanity publishers, you can't say "Well, someone published it, so someone (other than the author) thought it would sell." It's just not a sensible argument.

8misericordia
mei 19, 2009, 6:40 pm

I guess I am passing judgments. Of the following:

I judge the following statements False
1: ULTB tagged books of recent publication date are either "diamonds in the rough" or "suck".

2: Use of a vanity house publisher is measures of quality.

3: Use of a vanity house publisher means the author was rejected by all other mean of publication.

4: Mass appeal is a sure measure of quality.

5: The un-observed tree succumbing to natural forces of decay, produces no audible indication during it's impact on the Terra Firma.

I judge the following statements true.

1: Depending on the cataloging habits 705,962 people as a measure of quality is misguided.

2: Depending on the tagging habits of 51 people (number using the ultb tag) as a measure of quality is folly.

3: Requesting help with deciding what to do about a particular book, when you haven't decided if you will have a wife/husband or rational mind is funny. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

9misericordia
mei 19, 2009, 6:45 pm

OH I forgot I wanted to get a joke about judging a book by it's cover and still waters in Yellowstone run deep....I just don't have time to fill it in right now. You guys can figure it out I am sure.

10lorax
mei 19, 2009, 6:49 pm

8>

You're missing my point. Again.

I did not say "All books published by vanity publishers are crap". Nor did I say "All authors published by vanity publishers are doing so because their book was rejected by all other publishers".

What I said was:

The statement that "remember it got published, so someonone somewhere thought it would sell and make money. " is false in the case of vanity-published books. Publishers like PublishAmerica and AuthorHouse have zero quality control. They don't care if books will sell, because they make money from the authors. A book published by one of these sources might be great, but so might a manuscript scrawled in yellow crayon in the bottom of someone's desk drawer. The fact that they have been published is not an indication that anyone, anywhere, thought they were good. None.

11prosfilaes
mei 20, 2009, 12:35 am

.2% of the reading population is a huge percentage, more than enough to judge penetration of a book into public eye. An ULTB tagged book of recent publication has gone unnoticed; if it's not in a niche market, then either it sucks, or the people who might bring attention to it have overlooked it--i.e. a diamond in the rough.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. And when I have time to eat all the pudding I want, I'll do so. Until then, you've got to eyeball some things, and vanity house publishers publish a lot of crap that no real publisher would publish; the average work published by a vanity house publisher is indeed worse than the average work published through normal publishers.

I didn't say that mass appeal is a sure measure of quality. But it does seem pretty darn indicative; for one example, Joseph Frank's Hobbled Pegasus; a descriptive bibliography of minor English poetry, 1641-1660 starts out by admitting that after reading every line of poetry published in those 20 years, there's not much published in that era of value that's not already well-known. And I don't think it a coincidence that my favorite authors in mystery have had huge series that in print decades after they died.

I'm not dealing in certainty; I'm trying to estimate the comparative probabilities of one book versus another. And all things considered, a generic mystery that people own and read is more likely to be an enjoyable read than something that no one seems to have noticed.

12misericordia
Bewerkt: mei 20, 2009, 12:50 pm

Hmmm, well I reread what I wrote and I can see where you could think that I am missing your point. But clearly I didn’t say that you said anything. I said that I judge certain statements to be false. Perhaps it was implied that I attribute those statement to you so I will clarify that I don’t think that you said. Further I never said you said “crap”. In addition I don’t use the word “crap” except in statements whose use is to clarify the fact that I don’t use the word “crap”. So you saying I said you said “crap” is clearly wrong.

Please note the complete removal of all commas from the previous statements, is for an annoying and yet to me, humorous effect.

13lorax
mei 20, 2009, 1:05 pm

12>

Ah, well, I thought we were having a conversation rather than just both making a series of unrelated and unconnected statements. Sorry for the confusion (and especially for misquoting you by using "crap" instead of "suck" -- that was carelessness, and I apologize.)

14misericordia
mei 20, 2009, 1:14 pm

Thanks, But I never said "suck" either. I was quoting previous statements. But, that's more splitting hairs I'll give you that one. So, to put the conversation back on track and toward and interesting subject. What do you consider a fair measurement of "quality"? And just to keep it fresh, a measure of quality prior to actual reading of the said book.

15reading_fox
mei 21, 2009, 6:02 am

Just to keep a moribund topic alive a little while longer:

My statement "so someonone somewhere thought it would sell and make money.
"

Continues to be true even in the light of the fact that it's a vanity press who has published it. It's just that rather than an independant editor finding it of worth, the person who thinks it will sell and make money is the author.

16misericordia
Bewerkt: mei 22, 2009, 4:57 pm

Or maybe the author had little faith in the book and his/her wife/husband/family published it as a gift, none of whom believed it would sell and make money. In the case of the original book Old Faithful Murder: Yellowstone Mystery Series by Raymond Kieft, if one is to believe the author's bio on Amazon, Raymond Kieft maybe a "hobby" author. Maybe he is paying to publish his book for other than profit motives, like the simple joy of putting "Author" on his resume.

Now, sure it is "likely" I would even put it a 90% of all books publish had someone who thought it would make money. But, not all.

In point of fact, I personal know that NO ONE involved with the publication of the book JD Edwards Enterpriseone 8.9 High Availability And Storage for the IBM Pseries Client thought it would make money.

The original question, in a nutshell was "should I keep book X". I believe your advise was "read half the books see if you like it." And "someone somewhere thought it would sell and make money". My mistake was to then attach quality to "sell and make money". Further, I implied that "a person should only keep quality books". Seriously flawed logic there. I mean I have a copy of JD Edwards Enterpriseone 8.9 High Availability And Storage for the IBM Pseries Client and that's not a quality book.

I like the statement from 11>
I'm not dealing in certainty; I'm trying to estimate the comparative probabilities of one book versus another. And all things considered, a generic mystery that people own and read is more likely to be an enjoyable read than something that no one seems to have noticed.

Short of actual reading a book how do you improve the "probabilities" of finding an enjoyable read. Starting with a 50% probability of enjoyable.
1. Check is it a vanity press publication? If true -20% to enjoyable read probabilities.
2. Check are you buying it from:
i. Top Ten list: +10%
ii. Regular bookstore stacks +0%
iii. Used bookstore just arrival rack +5%
iv. Used bookstore stacks(plus dust) -5%
v. Library for sale shelf -10%
3. LT items
i. ULTB tagged on LT with recent publication date. ?%
ii. +20% for each "average" star over 3 on LT
iii. +2.25% for each favorable review on LT

Hmmm I smell a iPhone app...

4: Good Cover +40% or NA

Now that's beating a dead horse.

PS "Reed Farrel Coleman" nearly ultb, possible used vanity presses previously...

PSS Sneaked previous post script in to prevent getting last post.

17SaintSunniva
mei 21, 2009, 11:05 pm

#16 "Short of actual reading a book how do you improve the "probabilities" of finding an enjoyable read"

One way I discovered really good children's fiction and other books, before I had become familiar with many of the authors, was by noting (at library book sales) the rebound editions. Plain covers meant the book had been checked out a lot, eventually meriting a trip to the binder. Or rebinder or whatever.

Last Voyage by Warren Armstrong is the first example of this in my ultb's - it is an anthology of scary, sad, interesting true stories of ships sinking, and it's packaged in a bright green (apparently rebound) cover.

I realize books with rebound covers are not valuable to collectors, but has anyone else discovered good books this way? Good, as in, worth reading, I mean.