Council of Elrond Message Board

I belong to a Tolkien messageboard that used to have many literature discussions, but has gone very quiet now the movies are over. I'd love to have discussions like that again.

I haven't read much of Tolkien outside the common canon (LOTR, Hobbit). What are some of your favorite non-common works?

Easiest to read as a story is probably Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion gives the most background, all the history you can see lurking in the background of Lord of the Rings. And then there are the twelve volumes of History of Middle Earth which Christopher Tolkienpublished by putting together drafts of his father's work.
Four of these:
The Return of the Shadow
The Treason of Isengard
The War of the Ring
Sauron Defeated
are sometimes sold as The History of the Lord of the Rings and contain the actual drafts for the writing of it. Some people find them very dull, but it can be fascinating seeing how the story developed, from when Frodo was named Bingo Bolger-Baggins and Aragorn was a hobbit named Trotter.

The Peoples of Middle Earth has the most supplementary material to Lord of the Rings, and includes the very first chapter of a sequel.

The Book of Lost Tales Part 1
The Book of Lost Tales 2 Part 2
The Lays of Beleriand
The Shaping of Middle Earth
contain some of his earlier work, including things which would go on to form the Silmarillion. There's a lot of language stuff in them, and some of the stories are written as poems.
The Lost Road is more of the same, plus the start of a time travel novel which was to complement C.S. Lewis's space travel Cosmic Trilogy.

There's a full explanation of History of Middle Earth at http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_hm.html

For his other publications, I love The Father Christmas Letters which is illustrated letters written by Father Christmas to the Tolkien children over many years, telling of his adventures at teh North Pole.

Jawapez: The Silmarillion rounds out the Tolkien universe nicely, and for the most part fits into the LOTR storyline. The History of Middle Earth books are pretty dreadful. (Sorry Aquila)

No apologies neccessary. I've been reading The Treason of Isengard for the last year and a half (it's in my car glove box). I don't think I'd ever have got into them at all if I hadn't been trying to keep up with the Tolkien trivia game we were playing where the questions ranged across all the books. I stand by Unfinished Tales being a good read too, though. I loved the Silmarillion as a teenager, but now every time I try and reread it I fall asleep. *peers anxiously over her shoulder lest a Trivia maven trouts her*

If you're just looking for more of Tolkein's writing (as opposed to delving for trivia and/or examining his textual history) the HoME books probably aren't worth reading straight through, but there are some bits of them that I'd recommend taking a look at. Off the top of my head, I remember liking:

-The Fall of Gondolin in The Book of Lost Tales, part 2
-The Lay of Leithian, along with a critique by C. S. Lewis, in The Lays of Beleriand
-A rewritten version of "Earendil was a mariner", which I found superior to the one in The Fellowship of the Ring; this is presumably in The Return of the Shadow, though I don't remember precisely where
-A lot of the world-building essays in Morgoth's Ring and possibly also War of the Jewels (in particular, the one that gives Morgoth's Ring its title, and the one about elven divorce).

You should almost certainly read the Silmarillion before any of these, though, or they won't make much sense (except for the Earendil poem).

The best of Tolkien' s non ME works that I have read so far are Leaf by Niggle and Roverandom. They both have the fantasy element but are basically simple little stories that he wrote down on the spur of the moment. They are all included in a book called A Tolkien Miscellany published by the Sci-Fi Book Club is basically the same as A Tolkien Reader but with several other works included like Tom Bombadil, and, Leaf by Niggle, and On Fairy Stories. All of which excellent by the way/.

I would like to discuss some Tolkien too. I hope someone else is out there!

I found a site that gives an interesting method to read about Middle Earth in chronological order, using LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. It's a bit tedious switching from book to book, but I am finding it quite interesting, although I am learning more about Turin than I ever wanted to know!

Huh, I'd never thought to sit down and work that out. Can you link to the site?

Tolkien trivia question of the day - how did Merry get to Ithilien?

I'm too lazy to go pick up the book right now, but didn't Merry go to Ithilien with The Captains of the West, on the way to the Black Gate? Or did he? Maybe he was at the Houses of Healing then? I can't remember!

Here is the chronological reading site:

http://www.chronology.org/tolkientable/calculator.html

One of the neat things about this is that you can put in your particular editions of the books, and the table will be calculated specifically for you.

For solid discussions of all of Tolkien you should definitely visit the Reading Room at The One Ring.net, http://www.theonering.net (click "discussions" on the menu on the left side, then go to "Reading Room").
There are currently two serial discussions going on: on is just finishing up Unfinished Tales, while the other is "Tolkien Thematic Discussions" which is currently looking at "Hobbits and their encounters, influences and relationships." Many of the posters are quite expert, having written pieces for the forthcoming Tolkien Encyclopedia, but they developed their expertise in the Reading Room. Amateurs are also welcome, as long as you don't ask for help with your homework.

No one has mentioned Smith of Wootton Major: nothing to do with Middle Earth but a rather beautiful fairy story.

I would suggest joining LOTR87 over at Yahoo. We just recently finished a group read of Unfinished Tales and are thinking about a group read and discussion of Children of Hurin once we all have copies of our own. Also the Council of Elrond Website has some fairly active discussions boards for both the books and movies.

I think it's great they're going to be able to film THE
HOBBIT. I wonder if everyone who was in the LOTR
Trilogy Movies will be back for THE HOBBIT. I certainly hope so. It would be great to see everyone again.
Does anyone think they'll eventually start filming some
more of Tolkien's other works now?

Librarianwannabe

No they won't be filming more of the works, Christopher Tolkien was very against the films and has the rights to the later books sewn up tightly for a long time to come. Which means the contents of the bridging film that is being made alongside the Hobbit is mostly limited to what is in LotR, Hobbit and the appendices of LotR.

I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about the upcoming Hobbit movie. What is the latest news about it? Are the cast form The LOTR movies coming back to reprise their roles in The Hobbit? When is it due to come out?

beatles1964

I have always been amazed how easy it was for Arwen to decide to give up her Immortality for Aragorn. I know they loved each other but to give up one's Immortality just so they could be together is an awful big sacrifice to make. I wonder how many people would or could actually give up their Immortality if they were Immortal (of course) for the one they loved. Since I am still single and not in any kind of relationship right now I can't imagine myself giving up my Immortality. I think it would be a very hard decision for me to give up my Immortality for that special someone in my life, especially since you would know what it means to be a mere mortal. Immortality or Love? That is the question. To remain Immortal and know that your best friend, lover and Soul Mate would age, grow and eventually die. How that would hurt to have to experience that pain as you just sit by and watch that happen knowing that the passing of the years would not affect you one bit.
At least I feel it would be a very hard decision to have to make while for others they may find the choice is easier for them because they would rather spend it with that special someone in their life.

beatles1964

Re 16> Ian McKellen is definitely going to be in it, which I'm quite excited about.
http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22969

It's likely that Andy Serkis will return as Gollum too. Possibly Viggo will return as Strider, and maybe Orlando will have a cameo as Legolas.

I know it's probably going to be two movies, and IMDB says 2011 as the release of the first movie. They'll probably shoot them at the same time, like LOTR.

Thanks for the update Kegsoccer. I hadn't heard what's up with the movie and was wondering about it. I guess it makes me sound a bit selfish for saying how amazed I feel that Arwen would even think of giving up her Immortality for Aragorn instead of getting on the Last Boat and heading for the Undying Land with the rest of the Elves.And you would be right in calling me selfish too. I couldn't argue that point one little bit. I guess the reason I always felt so amazed at the fact that Arwen was willing to make this huge sacrifice for Aragorn is that it is such a noble gesture on her part to do this. When Aragorn could've made the noble gesture and made her leave Middle-Earth even though he would have always missed her while he stayed behind. I guess that is what True Love is all about.

beatles1964

You have a good point about love and immortality. It does seem amazing that Arwen would do that- but like you I'm single and not in love. I like to think that those who are truly in love, wouldn't even give it a second thought, and would give up immortality in a heartbeat to stay with the one they loved.

I had been hoping the movie would becoming out a lot sooner than 2011. In the LOTR movies they basically mainly concentrated a lot on the fight scenes which in itself was not a very bad thing but there was a lot they could have added to them even if it meant the movies would have been a little bit longer than what they turned out to be. Don't you all agree?

beatles1964

Sure- in fact that's part of the reason they're making two Hobbit movies.

But I think they had to consider their audience. You have to please the diehard fans by including as much as possible. So length is appreciated. But you have to also try to get people who wouldn't normally see the movie- and they might not want to sit through a longer movie.

The fight scenes got those guys who love violence. The few loves scenes may have gotten the girls who love romance. I mean you really have to consider how many times Arwen was actually mentioned in the books- not many- yet Liv Tyler was seen quite a few times. She even took Glorfindel's part in the first movie.

Sure, but I was thinking of other stuff. Like for example I seem to remember The Shire being raised and some bad guys take over The Shire and throw a lot of people into the local Jail. And all the hobbits in The Shire take up whatever weapons they can lay their hands on at the time. I can't seem to remember if that was from The Hobbit or part of The LOTR Trilogy since it's been several years since I have read The Hobbit and The LOTR Trilogy. I can pretty much picture in my mind's eye what they will probably include in The Hobbit movies.

beatles1964

I know all the stuff about Smaug the Dragon and the dwarves coming to Bilbo's Bag End home were all of course from The Hobbit and how Bilbo first stumbled upon the ring and met Smeagol/Gollum.

beatles1964

The shire part you remember is from Return of the King. It's at the end when they all return. I think though since ROTK was already so long they decided not to include that part in the movie.... It would have been good though :)

I'm trying to remember what I read about the Hobbit movies. I think the first movie is going to be taken from The Hobbit book...... so the stuff you mentioned........and the second movie is going to be a bridge from The Hobbit to The Fellowship of the Ring.

If the second movie is a bridge between the Hobbit and Fellowship, how much did Tolkien write about that. I would think that it was very little, so subject to a great deal of interpretation by the screenwriters.

Does anyone know what the very latest news is about The Hobbit movie they are filming?I would love to know how things are going with the movie and when we can expect to see it hit the Movie Theatres. I can't wait to see it when it eventually comes out.

I expect it will be just as good as The Lord of the The Rings Trilogy was.I hope it will win a lot of Academy Awards just like the other three movies did too. And when it comes out on DVD I guess they'll eventually offer it as a complete set of 4 movies.

Beatles1964