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1Barton
Has anyone on this list read "The Fall of the West" by Goldsworthy?
I'm just finishing it and it seems to bea good read but I will take some time thinking about his conclusions. Goldsworthy does seem to draw conclusions about ther continuities of Roman classical traditions and the imposition of Germanic ones witht the lat classical period or is that the early mediaeval period? he also draws attention to the simularitiies of this period to our own Western society. Any thoughts by anyone else on the list?
I'm just finishing it and it seems to bea good read but I will take some time thinking about his conclusions. Goldsworthy does seem to draw conclusions about ther continuities of Roman classical traditions and the imposition of Germanic ones witht the lat classical period or is that the early mediaeval period? he also draws attention to the simularitiies of this period to our own Western society. Any thoughts by anyone else on the list?
2cemanuel
I haven't read this book though I'd be happy to talk about the continuity/discontinuity issue for the Early Medieval Period. That, barbarian ethnogenesis and the old "causes of the 'fall' of Rome" are always interesting topics and create good discussions, even though I highly doubt anyone will reach any sort of consensus - at least not in the near term.
I will say that in general I don't have a lot of use for someone trying to draw parallels between something that happened a thousand or more years ago and in today's Western Civilization. You can draw rough parallels in an anthropological way between cultures at relatively similar stages of development but that isn't the case with, say, 4th century Rome and the 21st century US. For every similarity between the two cultures I can find a dozen points of dissimilarity - points which are critical to the lives, governmental institutions, cultural mores, etc. of the two societies.
In reference to your point in the Ancient History Group, I doubt a Late Antiquity group would generate the traffic to be useful here, unfortunately. OTOH, I don't see where it would hurt anything to create it and find out (Tim, chime in if you disagree).
I will say that in general I don't have a lot of use for someone trying to draw parallels between something that happened a thousand or more years ago and in today's Western Civilization. You can draw rough parallels in an anthropological way between cultures at relatively similar stages of development but that isn't the case with, say, 4th century Rome and the 21st century US. For every similarity between the two cultures I can find a dozen points of dissimilarity - points which are critical to the lives, governmental institutions, cultural mores, etc. of the two societies.
In reference to your point in the Ancient History Group, I doubt a Late Antiquity group would generate the traffic to be useful here, unfortunately. OTOH, I don't see where it would hurt anything to create it and find out (Tim, chime in if you disagree).
3ThePam
I've been thinking about this CEmanual and I have to say that part of the purpose of history is draw contrasts between times in order to gain some perspective. And besides being a fun game, it can literally keep one from doing the same stupid damn thing again. (see Afganistan)
Writing a book about it... hmmm. You'd have to be very, very careful.
Writing a book about it... hmmm. You'd have to be very, very careful.
4cemanuel
One problem - we always keep doing the same things again. We do that because we're people and people really haven't changed that much over thousands of years and are driven by the same needs, desires and fears that we ever were. So people in positions of power keep making the same screw-ups.
Those who study history learn that we are doomed to repeat it.
Those who study history learn that we are doomed to repeat it.
5ThePam
LOL - that made me laugh.
Perhaps there should be a presidential staff position for History. No prof's mind you as they are too well steeped in politics. Maybe a sparkly eyed grad without serious political leanings could advise.
btw-- I'm sure you'd be appalled by how they are teaching my 9 yo daughter history. They're doing Jamestown and making her memorize when and where Pocahantas, Rolfe, and Smith was born, died, and buried. Ghastly.
Perhaps there should be a presidential staff position for History. No prof's mind you as they are too well steeped in politics. Maybe a sparkly eyed grad without serious political leanings could advise.
btw-- I'm sure you'd be appalled by how they are teaching my 9 yo daughter history. They're doing Jamestown and making her memorize when and where Pocahantas, Rolfe, and Smith was born, died, and buried. Ghastly.
6MarianV
There are some good children's book on the life of Pocohantas. Let her read one, & if she's seen the Disney movie, you can talk about how things are added to movies to make them more interesting but are not always true.
7janeajones
But 80 years before John Smith and Pocahontas there were Juan Ortiz and Princess Hirrihigua:
http://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/juanortiz.html
http://www.vivaflorida.org/Pocahontas_Myth.39.lasso
http://www.ruskinhistory.org/pocahontas.htm
Have your daughter bring this story into her class and blow away the clouds of Anglified American history.
http://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/juanortiz.html
http://www.vivaflorida.org/Pocahontas_Myth.39.lasso
http://www.ruskinhistory.org/pocahontas.htm
Have your daughter bring this story into her class and blow away the clouds of Anglified American history.
8Makifat
The Myth of Rome's Fall by Haywood is an older (1958) text arguing for the continuity of certain Roman social and legal institutions in the lands of the former western empire. I'm curious as to whether the book you mentioned lists Haywood in its bibliography.
I would have to agree with #2. One can compare Imperial Rome and 20/21st century United States on a purely superficial level, but the analogies do not hold up under close inspection.
(One thing certain types like to cluck about is the underlying immorality of these societies. It's always fun to point out that the Western Empire was actually Christian when it "fell". One could make a tongue-in-cheek argument that it was the Christians that screwed everything up.)
I would have to agree with #2. One can compare Imperial Rome and 20/21st century United States on a purely superficial level, but the analogies do not hold up under close inspection.
(One thing certain types like to cluck about is the underlying immorality of these societies. It's always fun to point out that the Western Empire was actually Christian when it "fell". One could make a tongue-in-cheek argument that it was the Christians that screwed everything up.)
9cemanuel
#8 - Actually Gibbon made that argument, and it wasn't tongue-in-cheek. Something about the rise of superstition.
I've always found that funny - as if people who decided whether or not to fight a battle based on cattle guts weren't superstitious.
I've always found that funny - as if people who decided whether or not to fight a battle based on cattle guts weren't superstitious.
