Non-book related football stuff...
DiscussieBeautiful Game
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1dodger
There was a great piece by Jemima Lewis in The Independent last week on Becks coming to America. She hopes Beckham is indeed only in it for the money, and not as he says, to improve America’s love for the game.
Her main case is that soccer in the States is mainly viewed as a game played by little girls. She states that, “Being better at football than America is the one thing that any nation, however tiny and beleaguered, can aspire to. From Cameroon to Côte d'Ivoire, Romania to Uruguay, we insignificant peoples of the world can take succour from this one, modest, exception to the rule of American superiority.”
The article can be read online here.
Her main case is that soccer in the States is mainly viewed as a game played by little girls. She states that, “Being better at football than America is the one thing that any nation, however tiny and beleaguered, can aspire to. From Cameroon to Côte d'Ivoire, Romania to Uruguay, we insignificant peoples of the world can take succour from this one, modest, exception to the rule of American superiority.”
The article can be read online here.
2Jargoneer
Beckham's move to the US sent the newspaper over here into overdrive. The general opinion is that Beckham is not just doing it for the money, it is also re-positioning himself for life after football. He likes the US, he doesn't the hassle there that he gets everywhere else. (There were also suggestions that Victoria thinks she can break into showbusiness in LA - I would brace myself for the Beckhams turning up on every tv show, premiere, opening of an envelope).
In sporting terms Beckham's move to the US is seen as a betrayal of his talent. Beckham was always over-rated as a player but he is a good solid worker with the ability to deliver great crosses, long passes, etc, and could still do a 'job' for an Premiership team. Of course, Beckham has stated he wouldn't that he wouldn't play for another English team after Man Utd, and no other major European team was interested. A move to a lesser team would have damaged the Beckham brand.
The question now is - what happens if Beckham makes no major impact?
The idea that the US is a sleeping giant in football is a recurring myth, that as soon as they take it seriously they will win everything in site. The truth is that the countries that succeed at international level are countries where football is ingrained in the culture. The US have made great strides in the international arena but never get the idea that it really matters when they play, whereas you know when Italy lose the country has an emotional reaction. It does surprise me that football isn't challenging to become the main game in places like California and Texas with their large Mexican community, and their culture of football.
In sporting terms Beckham's move to the US is seen as a betrayal of his talent. Beckham was always over-rated as a player but he is a good solid worker with the ability to deliver great crosses, long passes, etc, and could still do a 'job' for an Premiership team. Of course, Beckham has stated he wouldn't that he wouldn't play for another English team after Man Utd, and no other major European team was interested. A move to a lesser team would have damaged the Beckham brand.
The question now is - what happens if Beckham makes no major impact?
The idea that the US is a sleeping giant in football is a recurring myth, that as soon as they take it seriously they will win everything in site. The truth is that the countries that succeed at international level are countries where football is ingrained in the culture. The US have made great strides in the international arena but never get the idea that it really matters when they play, whereas you know when Italy lose the country has an emotional reaction. It does surprise me that football isn't challenging to become the main game in places like California and Texas with their large Mexican community, and their culture of football.
3dodger
Yikes! I hadn’t even thought about how much we will see of Posh and Becks on TV! I wonder if he is packing his sarong for LA...
I am excited though, I think he will draw some attention to the game here; America loves sports celebrities. All of the Major League Soccer (MLS) clubs have reported receiving hundreds of phone calls asking about tickets to games to see Beckham. The worst case scenario though, would be if Beckham gets injured, or worse then that, just doesn’t perform. I think either of those would sour Americans on the sport.
Even if Beckham succeeds, I don’t think there is an immediate threat to the balance of power in world football. The culture here is completely different. Kids in other parts of the world grow up playing the game, and dreaming of playing for their country in the World Cup. Kids here may play the game, but the vast majority are dreaming of being the next NFL or NBA star. Then there is the issue of skill level. I have watched ordinary children in Europe playing in the streets or in parks, and their basic skill level is so much higher than the average American child. An American kid who possesses that kind of skill would be considered a superstar, and most likely would be handed a scholarship to any number of top universities.
jargoneer, I would say that a significant reason for the game being popular at all here in the States is due to our Mexican and Central/South American population. And in fact, one of the newest MLS clubs is a California team called Club Deportivo Chivas USA (who play in the same stadium as LA Galaxy), a club created mostly to boost support for MLS by the Latino population. Most football matches I watch are broadcast in Spanish. Even though we have the “Fox Soccer Channel,” the Spanish language sports station broadcasts much better games. There is the possibility that without the support of the Latino community, matches would not be broadcasted at all.
I am excited though, I think he will draw some attention to the game here; America loves sports celebrities. All of the Major League Soccer (MLS) clubs have reported receiving hundreds of phone calls asking about tickets to games to see Beckham. The worst case scenario though, would be if Beckham gets injured, or worse then that, just doesn’t perform. I think either of those would sour Americans on the sport.
Even if Beckham succeeds, I don’t think there is an immediate threat to the balance of power in world football. The culture here is completely different. Kids in other parts of the world grow up playing the game, and dreaming of playing for their country in the World Cup. Kids here may play the game, but the vast majority are dreaming of being the next NFL or NBA star. Then there is the issue of skill level. I have watched ordinary children in Europe playing in the streets or in parks, and their basic skill level is so much higher than the average American child. An American kid who possesses that kind of skill would be considered a superstar, and most likely would be handed a scholarship to any number of top universities.
jargoneer, I would say that a significant reason for the game being popular at all here in the States is due to our Mexican and Central/South American population. And in fact, one of the newest MLS clubs is a California team called Club Deportivo Chivas USA (who play in the same stadium as LA Galaxy), a club created mostly to boost support for MLS by the Latino population. Most football matches I watch are broadcast in Spanish. Even though we have the “Fox Soccer Channel,” the Spanish language sports station broadcasts much better games. There is the possibility that without the support of the Latino community, matches would not be broadcasted at all.
4Jargoneer
I'm not convinced that the college model is a good model for football. I know it works for other sports but a young footballer is probably better off getting experience at a professional club. A good player should be looking at breaking into a team aged 19/20 and established a season or so later.
The skill level is a interesting debate. I have seen MLS matches in the UK and although technically there seem some deficiencies, I would argue that the tactical setups are more of a problem. It is harder to teach tactical acumen than improve a player's basic skills. A major problem for the MLS is the same as any minor football league, the big leagues (England, Spain, etc) will covert the best players and even the middle leagues in Europe (Holland, France, etc) can pay more than the MLS teams. This means that the best players go will abroad, and because the standard is better in Europe, want to go. While this may mean that the national team improves, it means that the MLS is denuded of it's best homegrown players. This, of course, means that the overall standard of the league remains the same, rather than improves.
I wonder what affect franchising has on the MLS as well. In the rest of the world, football teams were grown from local environments. This created a solid fanbase for the team on which to build. With franchising, teams just come and go. The size of the US may be a problem that football can't overcome.
The skill level is a interesting debate. I have seen MLS matches in the UK and although technically there seem some deficiencies, I would argue that the tactical setups are more of a problem. It is harder to teach tactical acumen than improve a player's basic skills. A major problem for the MLS is the same as any minor football league, the big leagues (England, Spain, etc) will covert the best players and even the middle leagues in Europe (Holland, France, etc) can pay more than the MLS teams. This means that the best players go will abroad, and because the standard is better in Europe, want to go. While this may mean that the national team improves, it means that the MLS is denuded of it's best homegrown players. This, of course, means that the overall standard of the league remains the same, rather than improves.
I wonder what affect franchising has on the MLS as well. In the rest of the world, football teams were grown from local environments. This created a solid fanbase for the team on which to build. With franchising, teams just come and go. The size of the US may be a problem that football can't overcome.
5dodger
Indeed, the college model does not work for football, mainly because there is no advancement scheme in place. In other college sports (namely American football and basketball), college stars go on to play professionally; in football (soccer), very few do. There are not many opportunities to continue playing the game; very few college soccer stars will be playing in the MLS; and you will spot even fewer playing in top European leagues. Conversely, if a player of American football is a college star, you will certainly see him in the NFL someday, most likely earning millions of dollars.
You have a very good point about the tactical setups; and the pay is an important part, too. On the whole, the MLS could pay players as much as top European clubs; however, they have a salary cap (much as all American sports do now, hockey was the last stand-out). Even without a cap though, I doubt they would pay as much as top European clubs, as the return on investment would not be as good since most Americans are not interested in the game. Therefore, you’re right: any good American footballer will most likely go abroad, where they can make a lot more money.
I could not agree more with your statement that, “While this may mean that the national team improves, it means that the MLS is denuded of it's best homegrown players. This, of course, means that the overall standard of the league remains the same, rather than improves.” Brilliantly stated!
I would add that a major factor to the football culture in America is one of Americans applying an American attitude of their sports to a game that is international. That is not to say that we here in America do not love our sports, just that the overall attitude toward sport is different. A chief example of this was an article written by a European journalist during the last World Cup. In writing about a US Soccer match he stated something to the effect that, “In typical American fashion, their supports were leaving the match before it was over in order to ‘beat traffic’.”
You have a very good point about the tactical setups; and the pay is an important part, too. On the whole, the MLS could pay players as much as top European clubs; however, they have a salary cap (much as all American sports do now, hockey was the last stand-out). Even without a cap though, I doubt they would pay as much as top European clubs, as the return on investment would not be as good since most Americans are not interested in the game. Therefore, you’re right: any good American footballer will most likely go abroad, where they can make a lot more money.
I could not agree more with your statement that, “While this may mean that the national team improves, it means that the MLS is denuded of it's best homegrown players. This, of course, means that the overall standard of the league remains the same, rather than improves.” Brilliantly stated!
I would add that a major factor to the football culture in America is one of Americans applying an American attitude of their sports to a game that is international. That is not to say that we here in America do not love our sports, just that the overall attitude toward sport is different. A chief example of this was an article written by a European journalist during the last World Cup. In writing about a US Soccer match he stated something to the effect that, “In typical American fashion, their supports were leaving the match before it was over in order to ‘beat traffic’.”
6Jargoneer
The salary cap is a interesting talking point. In Europe salaries have exploded - the average wage for a (English) Premiership player is over £500k but this is brought down by the smaller clubs and reserve/squad players. Someone like Michael Owen at Newcastle is on more than £100k ($190k) a week basic. The clubs feel obliged to offer these salaries to their top players because they are frightened if the don't someone else will. (As you know movement between clubs in football is much easier than in US sports). This has meant that although clubs are generating more money than ever before they are even worse off, all the extra money is going on salaries. Most football clubs in the UK, if not Europe, are technically insolvent but get away with it because of their 'special' status - any other type of business and many of them would be closed down. For these reasons, UEFA would like to instigate a European wide salary cap based on a percentage of a club's turnover but are hamstrung by European law which would see this as anti-competitive. Ironically, since this would stop the big clubs buying everyone competition probably would increase.
I watched the last MLS Cup match, and was disappointed in the standard of play but some of this was due having seen the US national team, and the leading US players playing week-in week-out in the English leagues (for example). Actually as I'm writing this I have Bolton-Fulham on the tv, so McBride and Bocanegra are playing. (McBride is a very useful striker, it's a pity he didn't get to Europe until 31).
Interestingly, there was a story in The Guardian a couple of days ago, about Arsenal thinking of buying Colorado Rapids, and using it as a development club. If that means that CR get some of the Arsenal youngsters for a season or too, expect them to be one of the best teams in the league. A bigger plus would be that CR get to take advantage of Arsenal's training techniques, which have a proven record in producing quality players.
I watched the last MLS Cup match, and was disappointed in the standard of play but some of this was due having seen the US national team, and the leading US players playing week-in week-out in the English leagues (for example). Actually as I'm writing this I have Bolton-Fulham on the tv, so McBride and Bocanegra are playing. (McBride is a very useful striker, it's a pity he didn't get to Europe until 31).
Interestingly, there was a story in The Guardian a couple of days ago, about Arsenal thinking of buying Colorado Rapids, and using it as a development club. If that means that CR get some of the Arsenal youngsters for a season or too, expect them to be one of the best teams in the league. A bigger plus would be that CR get to take advantage of Arsenal's training techniques, which have a proven record in producing quality players.
7Jargoneer
I would just like to state how much fun qualifying for the European Championships currently are. Scotland are doing a decent impersonation of a football team, while England having a terrible time. It's almost as if a dream has come true. (I have to enjoy it now because in 6 months time, Scotland will be 4th in their group, and England will qualify).
8Busifer
#7 - Still satisfied? I'm certainly not, we - Sweden - scored a loss against Norther Ireland (or was it against David Healy?).
ANd as you indicated England always seems to make it. A lot like the italians, actually, but that may be to take it too far on a day like this?
;-)
ANd as you indicated England always seems to make it. A lot like the italians, actually, but that may be to take it too far on a day like this?
;-)
9Jargoneer
I expected to lose to Italy, and 2-0 wasn't that bad, so still satisfied. Considering Scotland were getting thrashed by 5-0 by teams not that long ago, anything seems like a bonus at present.
Despite England winning 3-0 the press coverage here (in England) is totally negative - everyone is demanding that the manager goes. One of the tabloids has started to show pictures of the manager as a doughnut (they morph his head).
Saw the highlights of the Sweden match, Healy scored two good goals (the first one was very good) but Sweden should have beaten them. Makes the group a lot more interesting though.
Despite England winning 3-0 the press coverage here (in England) is totally negative - everyone is demanding that the manager goes. One of the tabloids has started to show pictures of the manager as a doughnut (they morph his head).
Saw the highlights of the Sweden match, Healy scored two good goals (the first one was very good) but Sweden should have beaten them. Makes the group a lot more interesting though.
10Busifer
Yes, it sure does. I saw highlights from NI's game against Spain earlier and was pretty sure that they would beat us with 3-1... That doesn't make the loss easier, though.
A lot of people here, including me, would like to see another manager but for that to happen the chairman of the swedish FA (SFF) have to retire. And no one thinks that's going to happen anytime soon.
A lot of people here, including me, would like to see another manager but for that to happen the chairman of the swedish FA (SFF) have to retire. And no one thinks that's going to happen anytime soon.
11Busifer
Group B looks very interesting/open but I'll bet that Italy somehow, despite always underachieving, will qualify in the end...
12Jargoneer
I support Italy as my second team - with Scotland failing so often you need a fallback position - so if we can't make it I'd like it to be them. Ideally, France won't make it - when Scotland beat them recently they were the worst sportsmen I have seen, and heard, in years. In an ideal world, Scotland will beat France in Paris and then make a ring around Henry and taunt him - he's such a tube!
What worries me about EC qualifying is that Germany currently look the best team. Don't tell me that the German slump is over and a new period of dominance is about to begin.
What worries me about EC qualifying is that Germany currently look the best team. Don't tell me that the German slump is over and a new period of dominance is about to begin.
13Busifer
That makes two of us - Italy's my second team as well, and I really would like to see France denied. I really don't like German fotball either - we've had Erste Division on cable here last season and it was SO bad; no tempo, no technique, no tactics...
*hides under table if some german or french should look by here*
*hides under table if some german or french should look by here*
14lgarciadrinksangria Eerste Bericht
Alright
I have seen like almost all of the qualifying matches for Euro 2008.. over the internet mainly.
Here is my report:
First of all Greece, "the champs" are just so not clicking together. Chemistry! -- no chemistry whatsoever!
In their big big game vs Turkey their goalkeeper was nervous as hell and let in easy goals, yet they have a pretty good team Samaras, some other dude that is leading the Bundesliga in scoring!, Giankapolous from Bolton and a ton of other well seasons players. Turkey are good and strong...but the system that the Greeks copied last year will not work if they continue this way. In my opinion they totally copied
the Italian system of defence. Anyways -- they are not clicking together, most of their players felt ashamed (you could see in their reactions) when they lost big against Turkey. Then they played Malta and won, although Malta are not that great they put a fight but the team clicked and worked better together -- it was a much more different squad, younger, inexperienced with a couple of experienced players in there but with much more tenacity and less self ego. In short, the way I see it from reviewing the tapes -- this guys are not going that far.
Englad - OMG ... get it together lads!
You guys have, at least on paper an amazing squad.
The problem is that crouch seems to be the only main scorer and to be quite honest you can rely on Crouch all the time, the guy looks like he is going to break apart. Frankie Lampard has been a great great disappointment; this guy practically owns the Premiership league - he is a brit, comes from a football family, rose through the prominent school of West Ham before Chelsea... scores bag loads of goals and assists but he can't net NOTHING while playing for country. Rooney is still young and has heart, Steve Gerrard is probably the only guy that consistently can create something in the midfield. In all 0-0 vs Israel = big disappointment's and automatic crucifixion by the English media. They won vs Andorra but who cares?-- I bet none of you know where Andorra is on the map...nice little country though. Anyways they won 4-0 against them or something like that... horrible match to watch though. The quality of football was not that great and they still got criticized in the Brit. media for being 0-0 at the half. My take thus far, England qualifies but goes nowhere. I am sorry the way they are playing someone really need to step up in the midfield and in the scoring position other than lanky Crouch...Frankie Lampard should start shooting like he does for chelsea from outside the box!
Hmm, Germany
Ok this guys are serious. They are bitter about losing vs Italy in their own turf and you can see it in their squad in their movements in their body language. I play and I know, this guys want to win because they need to feel that as a nation they can achieve something. I mean there are youngsters like Bastian S. (long name to spell), Klose, Friggs, Ballack, Kurany, others that really want to win. They are the new generation of Germany footballers that have not won anything internationally with Germany. They have walked all over their oponents, they are the only team that still looks like the team that played at its best on 2006... I mean, they still play with that same tenacity and that same heart. I think they will probably be right up, they will definitively qualify and go far if they keep up like this. Just a note, 21 goals in favor and 3 against. They mean business, even though their group is not so tough like others.. all that I have seen from the vids is that they are playing to win.
Italy. Now here is my choice, they started our slow but c'mon. They have a freakin allstar squad... but look for everyone and their grandmother in the opposing team to do everything they can to not let them win. They are playing great... they have all sorts of strikers.
Luca Toni, Gillardino, Totti (who is aging but can still score) same as Del Piero, Fabio Quagliarella look out for this guy. He is very good and young and very skilled forward. Andrea Pirlo and Marco Materazzi... all of them who are experienced and know how to make things work. They have started off slow but they have a tough group with France, Scotland and Ukraine in the group. But I look for them to do great things in the future. They have way too much talent to throw it away... they can play ugly but hey can play with some of the best technique you can get out there in some of their players and who can forget about Fabio Grosso? . This is my team to win it this year.
I should be cheering for Spain but they are doing ok and plus they alway mess things up or get calls against them. Italy is the team to beat in order to win.
The surprise and cinderella team this year?... potentally at this point from what I have seen... just like Greece *but better!*
Norther Ireland.
Just magical season... all of you English ex pats out there.. or anyone that still thinks of themselves as a N. Irishman... do yourself a favour and go see your team play at the nearest pub. I promise you, they will -at least- put on a good show.
That is if this man plays:
There is this guy by the name of David Healy.. he has basically come out of nowhere.. I mean..he is mad talented he signed with Man. United and was then loaned out to some poor club... God knows why... he has ended up at super "b" club Leeds United which is not even in the Premiership..but has mad mad following around the world. He is considered close to a God... perhaps a Hero in his country for scoring the only Goal that has beat England in Oirish soil since 1927. I am talking murals around Belfast in bus stops celebrating this goal to this day. The guy has practically single handedly put N. Ireland into first place, he single handedly beat Sweeden, Spain who are in their group. This is a tough group with Iceland and Denmark in their to try to screw things up a bit too.
The team has 10 goals in favour -- 9 of them are by this man alone.
He is indeed, as they say: on top form as a striker. Just realy good shape and just always doing the right things technically to be in the right spot and then has that wicked touch.
If he can get some decent support in the middle and someone else can score a bit more goals, not like him but every now and then...with some solid solid defence. This team qualifies and takes the breath away of viewers at home watching.
I would say everyone that likes to cheer for underdogs... this is your team, look no further.
Highly recommend watching this team play.
I have seen like almost all of the qualifying matches for Euro 2008.. over the internet mainly.
Here is my report:
First of all Greece, "the champs" are just so not clicking together. Chemistry! -- no chemistry whatsoever!
In their big big game vs Turkey their goalkeeper was nervous as hell and let in easy goals, yet they have a pretty good team Samaras, some other dude that is leading the Bundesliga in scoring!, Giankapolous from Bolton and a ton of other well seasons players. Turkey are good and strong...but the system that the Greeks copied last year will not work if they continue this way. In my opinion they totally copied
the Italian system of defence. Anyways -- they are not clicking together, most of their players felt ashamed (you could see in their reactions) when they lost big against Turkey. Then they played Malta and won, although Malta are not that great they put a fight but the team clicked and worked better together -- it was a much more different squad, younger, inexperienced with a couple of experienced players in there but with much more tenacity and less self ego. In short, the way I see it from reviewing the tapes -- this guys are not going that far.
Englad - OMG ... get it together lads!
You guys have, at least on paper an amazing squad.
The problem is that crouch seems to be the only main scorer and to be quite honest you can rely on Crouch all the time, the guy looks like he is going to break apart. Frankie Lampard has been a great great disappointment; this guy practically owns the Premiership league - he is a brit, comes from a football family, rose through the prominent school of West Ham before Chelsea... scores bag loads of goals and assists but he can't net NOTHING while playing for country. Rooney is still young and has heart, Steve Gerrard is probably the only guy that consistently can create something in the midfield. In all 0-0 vs Israel = big disappointment's and automatic crucifixion by the English media. They won vs Andorra but who cares?-- I bet none of you know where Andorra is on the map...nice little country though. Anyways they won 4-0 against them or something like that... horrible match to watch though. The quality of football was not that great and they still got criticized in the Brit. media for being 0-0 at the half. My take thus far, England qualifies but goes nowhere. I am sorry the way they are playing someone really need to step up in the midfield and in the scoring position other than lanky Crouch...Frankie Lampard should start shooting like he does for chelsea from outside the box!
Hmm, Germany
Ok this guys are serious. They are bitter about losing vs Italy in their own turf and you can see it in their squad in their movements in their body language. I play and I know, this guys want to win because they need to feel that as a nation they can achieve something. I mean there are youngsters like Bastian S. (long name to spell), Klose, Friggs, Ballack, Kurany, others that really want to win. They are the new generation of Germany footballers that have not won anything internationally with Germany. They have walked all over their oponents, they are the only team that still looks like the team that played at its best on 2006... I mean, they still play with that same tenacity and that same heart. I think they will probably be right up, they will definitively qualify and go far if they keep up like this. Just a note, 21 goals in favor and 3 against. They mean business, even though their group is not so tough like others.. all that I have seen from the vids is that they are playing to win.
Italy. Now here is my choice, they started our slow but c'mon. They have a freakin allstar squad... but look for everyone and their grandmother in the opposing team to do everything they can to not let them win. They are playing great... they have all sorts of strikers.
Luca Toni, Gillardino, Totti (who is aging but can still score) same as Del Piero, Fabio Quagliarella look out for this guy. He is very good and young and very skilled forward. Andrea Pirlo and Marco Materazzi... all of them who are experienced and know how to make things work. They have started off slow but they have a tough group with France, Scotland and Ukraine in the group. But I look for them to do great things in the future. They have way too much talent to throw it away... they can play ugly but hey can play with some of the best technique you can get out there in some of their players and who can forget about Fabio Grosso? . This is my team to win it this year.
I should be cheering for Spain but they are doing ok and plus they alway mess things up or get calls against them. Italy is the team to beat in order to win.
The surprise and cinderella team this year?... potentally at this point from what I have seen... just like Greece *but better!*
Norther Ireland.
Just magical season... all of you English ex pats out there.. or anyone that still thinks of themselves as a N. Irishman... do yourself a favour and go see your team play at the nearest pub. I promise you, they will -at least- put on a good show.
That is if this man plays:
There is this guy by the name of David Healy.. he has basically come out of nowhere.. I mean..he is mad talented he signed with Man. United and was then loaned out to some poor club... God knows why... he has ended up at super "b" club Leeds United which is not even in the Premiership..but has mad mad following around the world. He is considered close to a God... perhaps a Hero in his country for scoring the only Goal that has beat England in Oirish soil since 1927. I am talking murals around Belfast in bus stops celebrating this goal to this day. The guy has practically single handedly put N. Ireland into first place, he single handedly beat Sweeden, Spain who are in their group. This is a tough group with Iceland and Denmark in their to try to screw things up a bit too.
The team has 10 goals in favour -- 9 of them are by this man alone.
He is indeed, as they say: on top form as a striker. Just realy good shape and just always doing the right things technically to be in the right spot and then has that wicked touch.
If he can get some decent support in the middle and someone else can score a bit more goals, not like him but every now and then...with some solid solid defence. This team qualifies and takes the breath away of viewers at home watching.
I would say everyone that likes to cheer for underdogs... this is your team, look no further.
Highly recommend watching this team play.
15lgarciadrinksangria
by the way I am not addressing anyone in particular in this thread.. but anyone from n. america that might care all of you euros know what is going on already.
you can tell by my enthusiasm that I am a n. american.
you can tell by my enthusiasm that I am a n. american.
