Old English Words

I am currently reading the book Memoirs of A Medieval Woman The Life and Times of Margery Kempe by Louise Collis and while I am reading I am trying to get the gist of what they were saying at the time and some of these Old English words are messing me up because I am having some trouble trying to figure them out. Has anyone else read this book before? I would say that so far I have been able to figure out most of the words I have come across however there are a few that are really giving me the fits trying to figure that particular word out. Maybe I should just forget about trying to figure out what is being said and concentrate on the book itself so I can finish reading it and get on to another one of the Medieval books I own. What do you all think?

beatles1964

Other than that I am really enjoying the book and think it will only get better the further along I get into the book. I would like to hear any opinions about this book from anyone who has ever read it before.

I realize that is exactly people used to talk and write at the time. It is just a little bit weird for me to see the way they used to spell their words at the time that's all. It must've been awful tough to have lived in that particular time in history but it must've also been very exciting as well. I don't know if I would've wanted to have lived back then myself.

beatles1964

Well, spelling wasn't standardized at all, so if it was phonetically pronounced that way, that's how it was spelled. Most people couldn't read, so it didn't matter to them. What you're reading is in Middle English, like the original Canterbury Tales, not Old English. I would suggest a Middle English dictionary for full comprehension. =) Otherwise you're going to miss important meanings!

I haven't read her writings myself but she is a very important source for late medieval England. Probably someone else in this community has.

Since she deals with a lot of vision imagery, older church doctrine, general archaic language, etc I would suggest reading a translated and annotated text first and then going back to the original. If you don’t want to do that, try reading her out loud Middle English is usually more understandable that way.

I read her in college in a class on medieval women mystics and found her a little tough to get through, even in translation. Good luck!

Thanks for the info. littlebookworm. Yea I was finding that out as I am reading that they spelled words like it sounded. Could you Please explain the difference between Middle English and Old English? Can you suggest any Middle English dictionaries for me? Would a local library have something like this in their collection.

beatles1964

Hi beatles - the University of Michigan has an online Middle English lookup that might work for you, here.

If you change the dropdown menu to "headword and forms", and make liberal use of the wildcard asterisk, you can find quite a bit (for instance, I get no results on "frumschaft", but "frum*" gives me "frum-shaft (creation)".

Good luck.. you're more industrious than me :)

Thanks a lot prophetandmistress. I think I'm going to need all the luck I can get. Thanks for the tip too. I'll have to try reading her out loud. Do you know if they ever Published an edition of her works where they changed the spelling to our way?

beatles1964

Thanks for the info. jjlong. I will have to give it a try. Wow I really appreciate all the great tips and advice I'm getting from everyone here. This should make the book more enjoyable for me to read. I think I will start making a list of all the words that are giving me trouble. Then maybe I'll understand her better.

beatles1964

beatles1964, Middle English is heavily influenced by the Norman conquest and the influx of French into the culture. So you'll see the letter e on the end of words. Try saying it outloud if you don't know the word or saying it with a French pronunuciation, sometimes the odd word is a middle French import but you'll also see things that come from Old English or Anglo Saxon like an initial y yclep in front of a word as a modifier or a plural n in steed of s shoon instead of shoes. Use a reference and you'll start to recognize certain rules.

Also Margery Kempe is well worth reading. I read her in anthologies and she is fascinating.

For example words spelled like Olde or Shoppe would be Middle English? And then something like Tyme would be Old English? Do I have that correct? Ye Old Tyme Shoppe.

beatles1964

No, it's not that simple. Old English, Middle English and Modern English are three separate languages. With effort or training, a Modern English speaker (us) may be able to understand Middle English, just as an Italian speaker can understand Spanish, or a Dutch speaker can understand German. Old English is so separated from Modern English that it's unintelligible to us without training. For example, here is the first line of Beowulf in the original Old English:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,

and in Modern English:

What! We of Gar-Danes (lit. spear-danes) in yore-days.

Here is a rough summary of the time lines:

450–1100 Old English (Anglo-Saxon) – The language of Beowulf.
1100–1500 Middle English – The language of Chaucer.
1500–1650 Early Modern English (or Renaissance English) – The language of Shakespeare.
1650–present Modern English (or Present-Day English) – The language as spoken today.

There is tons of info about this on the Internet and at libraries--it's a fascinating topic. Tackling Margery Kempe outside of school is an impressive undertaking. I agree with others who have suggested finding a translated version (or side-by-side Middle English-Modern English translation). Hope that helps :-)

(Oops ... I hate when someone else posts while I'm typing! Anyway:)

Old English was only used until around 1066, and you'll know it when you see it because it's almost unrecognizable as English. :) (Unless you sound it out phonetically, and even then it seems like a crazy mix of English and German and Scandinavian languages....) Middle English--used for the rest of the Middle Ages--is more recognizable as English, just with odd spellings like Marensr mentioned.

There's a Penguin Classics edition of The Book of Margery Kempe which is in modern English. I think it would help you understand the tricky parts. Good luck!

Thanks to both Nickelini and d2vge for explaining it better to me.I think I will have to taske everyone up on their suggestion and either find a translated version or the side by Middle English-Modern English translation. Taking on something like this is really out of my comfort zone so I didn't know what to expect until I actually started reading the book. The easiest thing for me to do would've been to give the book up from the beginning and forget about trying to take something like this head on. And I could've started another book on the Medieval Period.

I remember years ago in my Sophomore Year in High
School during the 1974-75 School Year my Modern World History Teacher took us through Medieval History. History and Enlgish were always some of my favorite Classes at School. He was a real good teacher he made his class fun to be in because he was always cracking jokes and telling us stories about himself. I remember he went to Purdue University and was kind of the Mr. Kotter type of teacher. I also remember being picked on in his Class by the JV Football Players they would swipe my note book and eye glass case all the time. And if I wasn't paying attention I would sit down on a sharp thumb tack believe me I got the point in the end (pun intended). He had to stop to interrupt the Class and make the other kids give me my stuff back. Sometimes I found out about the thumb tack before I sat back down and other times I didn't. Ouch!! Talk about a Pain in the _ _ _ After my Modern World History Class I had Driver's Ed and these same jerks would tell me to remember D=Drag R=Race and P=Pass. What a bunch of Frakking Idiots!! You can Thank Battle Star Galactica for that word.

beatles1964

#13 - Taking on something like this is really out of my comfort zone
--------------

No kidding! I think it's out of anyone's comfort zone, unless they have had previous experience with Middle English. I had actually signed up for a class this summer that included Margery Kempe in its reading list, but I dropped it and decided to take summer off and read something less demanding. But eventually I'll read it too. Good luck with your endeavors, and come back and let us know how you do with the translated version.

Oh but it is so good of you to do it beatles even if it is outside your comfort zone. Full disclosure this is a huge portion of what I studied as an undergrad so I like it and I seem to like difficult things because I had a hard time getting more modern than Shakespeare.

I think it helped for me to hear it out loud the first time and their are recordings of The Canterbury Tales. I think it helped that I studied French as well.

As for Anglo-Saxon, my husband tells me I sound possessed if I quote Beowulf to him.

I don't know where you live but in Chicago there are several institutions that offer continuing education courses in the history of the English language or teach works in the original which could be a great context for you. I didn't make it through Ulysses until I read it in a class.

Let us know how it goes.

beatles1964,

I hope that you continue to make progress with the Middle English. It is tough to get through, and it sometimes takes a few years (or at least a few semesters!) to get to the point that it is comfortable. However, once you've got it, I think you will be able to enjoy the work in its original language much more than any translation you can find.

And...once you've got the Middle English down, You can move on to Old English (Brush up on some German or a Scandinavian language if you get a chance before hitting the Old English).

Good Luck!
An hendy hap ich habbe yhent
Ichoot from Hevene it is me sent.

I agree that Margery is worth reading -- especially aloud. I would add that the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) ONLINE, probably through your library is helpful with some Middle English -- not as good as the Medieval English dictionary at K-zoo though. I believe there are also recordings of Margery online so that someone ELSE can read her to you -- perhaps through U of Virginia?????? Try googling "margery Kempe" recordings.

Thanks alot for the advice medievalmama I will have to look into doing exactly that. Maybe I can even get it on an InterLibrary Loan {ILL} or at a local Public Library.

beatles1964

Re message #1: You are not going to find Old English words in either of the books mentioned. Archaic possibly. Middle English, quite possibly. Words Shakespeare used cause problems for modern readers, and they're not even Middle English. Old English/Anglo-Saxon is what Beowulf was written in, and I am NOT talking about a translation , but the original epic poem. If slightly archaic words bother you, a good dictionary will probably list many of them. The OED will have all of them, but most people don't have a copy handy; I certainly don't!

Once I stopped trying so hard to figure out some of the words and concentrated more on the story itself the book was much more enjoyable for me. I'm able to get the gist of what Margery Kempe was talking about and her adventues that she had while travelling.

beatles1964

For those whose public libraries give access to courses by the Teaching Company, this course was quite enjoyable and cogent:

History of the English Language, 2nd Edition
(36 lectures, 30 minutes/lecture)
Course No. 2250

Taught by Seth Lerer
Stanford University
Ph.D., University of Chicago

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