The Faerie Queene

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The Faerie Queene

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1absurdeist
Bewerkt: mei 28, 2011, 1:57 pm

The Faerie Queene's commencement has swiftly snuck up on us.

The group read begins June 1st, this coming Wed.

Dr. Urania the First, were you still planning on leading us through this five pound poem, or perhaps have the goats and the Russians at the dacha gotten the better of you, thereby making your availability uncertain? No harm no foul if so. Wouldn't be as compelling a read without you, but we'll do our best. I'll even give a shot, despite my past year of protestations. Maybe the Queene will bring A_Musing out of his exile too? A_Musing A_Musing! O where for art thou, A_Musing?!

Who else is in? Hands please.

2dmsteyn
mei 28, 2011, 2:05 pm

I read the first three books of The Faerie Queene for university purposes last year, so I'm definitely in.

3theaelizabet
mei 28, 2011, 2:15 pm

I'm in. Porious and the Faerie Queene. Will I explode?

4PimPhilipse
mei 28, 2011, 4:40 pm

FQ is patiently looking at me from my bed-side book shelf... her hour has come!

5urania1
mei 28, 2011, 4:44 pm

I will be leading the group, but give me to June 2nd to set up. I have houseguests from Russia coming in on the first. I am frantically trying to get everything ready. I will try to post some of my lecture notes/questions for Bk. 1 tonight. Reading schedule? thea or dmsteyn, would one of you set up a reading schedule. I have always taught FQ at a pretty slow pace. There are six completed books to FQ and an uncompleted seventh. Ideally, I would prefer not to go faster than one book a week but this will push us over into July and someone else's territory. To be truthful, in an undergraduate seminar I once spent three weeks on book 1. I love thoroughness.

6Porius
mei 28, 2011, 4:51 pm

Is the FQ essay in Paglia's SEXUAL PERSONAE helpful. There's a lot of bombast as well as scholarship in that book.

7dmsteyn
mei 28, 2011, 4:57 pm

I also love thoroughness - it's one of those poems that you won't get much from if you rush through it. I would also like to set up a reading schedule, but I'm not quite sure what it entails. Should I just divide the poem into pieces corresponding to the weeks in June?

8dmsteyn
mei 28, 2011, 5:01 pm

Like Harold Bloom, Paglia is one of those critics that you have to respect for their intelligence and insight, but I doubt that anyone could agree with everything they say. They like being controversial and downright perverse at times. I think the FQ essay, which I haven't read in a while, is fairly interesting - I'll reread it tonight and give a better idea of what it is about tomorrow.

9urania1
mei 28, 2011, 6:12 pm

So what do people think about not confining ourselves to June for this book.?

10baswood
mei 28, 2011, 7:05 pm

For those of us who are reading Porius slowly, I think taking FQ slowly would be a great idea. I'm up for it by the way. I have had my Penguin classics edition sitting on my bookshelves for nearly 20 years - it needs to get read

11theaelizabet
mei 28, 2011, 7:36 pm

I'm perfectly happy to take the time to savor both Porius and FQ.

12urania1
mei 28, 2011, 8:10 pm

Fabulous. I prefer taking time to savor the work.

13absurdeist
mei 28, 2011, 9:22 pm

I see no need to rush either. Whatever begins in July will either wait or people who aren't reading either Por or FQ will tune into that. Do whatever it takes to do as thorough a job as you want to do, not letting time be a factor.

14Porius
mei 28, 2011, 9:23 pm

slow, sloWER, sLOWEST.

15urania1
mei 28, 2011, 9:57 pm

Good slow but not low it will be.

16Porius
mei 28, 2011, 10:00 pm

slow, sloWER, sloWEST. Much better.

17urania1
mei 28, 2011, 10:20 pm

Porius,

I think I am missing something here. We all know the tortoise won the race. Did the onlookers say to one another. "Lo, there they go west"?

18Porius
mei 28, 2011, 10:25 pm

I think Vivian Darkbloom said it if I am not mistaken,

19dmsteyn
Bewerkt: mei 29, 2011, 11:55 am

Ok, so it seems that we will play it adagio (but not larghissimo?). I reread the Paglia - it is difficult to put in a nutshell, as she tends to go off on tangents, but she seems strongly opposed to the moralistic readings of the poem which are so common.

To really have an idea of what she is talking about (and I don't claim to understand or believe everything she says) you need to have an idea of what Nietzsche writes about in The Birth of Tragedy, which I've only read once. She plays on his dichotomy of Apollonian and Dionysian currents in Western art. She's also very critical of Chaucer (whom she equates with a kind of Christian simplicity).

Her main claim seems to be that in FQ, 'Protestant individualism has been usurped by a pagan aesthetic'. Well, pagan aesthetic is quite common throughout English literature (Milton is basically a card-carrying scholar of pagan myth, and so are the Romantics).

I think we should read the poem before coming to any conclusions about critical works. This is just a potted version of some of her arguments.

20dmsteyn
jun 2, 2011, 5:30 am

You ready to start today, urania1? How did it go with your houseguests?

21theaelizabet
jun 2, 2011, 9:07 am

Urania1, do you recommend a particular edition?

22dmsteyn
jun 2, 2011, 11:35 am

I've got the Longman Annotated, and from what I saw last year with fellow students of mine, it is much better than the Penguin, which is a really thick book for a paperback. Many people had their Penguin editions fall to pieces before the end of the semester. The Longman costs about twice as much, however.

23theaelizabet
Bewerkt: jun 2, 2011, 11:51 am

Thanks, Dewald. I think I'll order the Longman. They're always good.

24PimPhilipse
jun 2, 2011, 4:10 pm

I'm now at I.3 in the Longman.
Con:
- heavy
- 9 in 10 of the annotations are either trivial (yes, this is an opinion) or highly academic.
Pro:
- it's so thick that when reading in bed, you can just place it on your chest, and it stays upright with minimal effort of the hands. Thanks to the annotations the main text is always on the upper half of the page, so the important parts can be viewed without obstruction by extraneous objects.
- 1 in 10 of the annotations is a real life-saver.

25Poquette
jun 2, 2011, 5:12 pm

Breathlessly bringing up the rear (as usual), I'm in.

I bought the Penguin several years ago because it had copious notes. I'm crazy for notes, especially on a tome like this. Tempo adagio suits me fine.

26theaelizabet
jun 2, 2011, 5:31 pm

Pim, you've already begun reading? Foul! Foul, I say! Poquette, I will be taking this and the Porius read largo (summer you know).

27Poquette
jun 2, 2011, 5:38 pm

Thea, largo works, too!

28janeajones
jun 2, 2011, 9:03 pm

I have the Oxford Standard Authors of Spenser: Poetic Works, 1969, that I bought used sometime in the early 1970s. I read the entire Queene in the early 70s when I was working on my MA, but haven't read any of it except Book One since then -- unfortunately, I have lost all my notes and the brilliant ;-) paper I wrote at the time -- so once more into the breach.

29baswood
jun 6, 2011, 11:11 am

It's all gone quiet on The Faerie Queen front.

I started reading today and found that a Canto at each sitting is just about right. I therefore aim to read a book every two weeks (There are 7 books).

Is this practical for other readers?

There are plenty of commentaries in the net if you get confused by the language, which I am finding delightful to read - it flows so musically.

A Gentle knight was pricking on the plaine,
Y cladd i mightie armes and siluer shielde,
Wherein old dints of deepe wounds did remaine,
The cruell markes of many a bloudy fielde;
Yet armes till that time did he neuer wield:
His angry steed did chide his foaming bitt,
As much disdayning to the curb to yield:


C'mon folks we can't keep that steed waiting.

30dmsteyn
jun 6, 2011, 1:08 pm

I think a book every two weeks would work nicely, baswood. The seventh book, as Urania mentioned, is very short - only two cantos, I believe.

I have a book from the library, Spenser's World of Glass, that seems quite interesting; it has chapters on each of the books, so I will report back on each as I read them. I know, it's an old book, but the University of Pretoria doesn't have much in the way of Spenserania.

Here's from the introduction:

Digressive though it appears Spenser’s poem is of an order as intricate and as triumphant as that of the Elizabethan-medieval physical world with its inter-enclosed spheres, its angelic ranks, its emblematic animals, all pointing to the microcosm, man.

I also have some notes left-over from my university work on the poem last year. I'll post things that aren't copy-righted.

31baswood
jun 6, 2011, 2:21 pm

looking forward to those postings dewald

32Poquette
jun 6, 2011, 2:50 pm

C.S. Lewis has several relevant chapters on Spenser and the FQ in Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Literature. I haven't read all of them but since we're going slowly I'll have time to read and report any interesting findings there.

33Porius
jun 6, 2011, 3:16 pm

Not much hurry. The more about Spenser stuff the better, no?

34baswood
Bewerkt: jun 6, 2011, 6:04 pm

Lots of information and essays on Spenser and the Faerie Queene at the luminarium
http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/spensbio.htm

Undoubtedly the peculiar "poetic luxury" of the Faery Queen can be enjoyed without any reference to the allegory; even Professor Dowden, the most eloquent champion of Spenser's claims as a "teacher," admits that it is a mistake to look for minute correspondence between outward symbol and underlying sense, and that the poet is least enjoyable where he is most ingenious. Still the allegory governs the structure of the poem, and Spenser himself attached great importance to it as determining his position among poets.

35baswood
jun 7, 2011, 6:40 pm

I have been following the exploits of The Red Knight for two cantos now asking myself these questions:

Is the red Knight on a quest for holiness or is the red knight holiness himself ?
Is all the evil he finds the result of Roman Catholicism ?
Is it a journey from innocence to experience ?
Is he going to have anymore erotic dreams ?
If una is truth why is she so stupid ?
Did Dylan borrow the image of the bleeding branch from Canto II for his "A Hard Rains A-Gonna Fall
Did..............

36urania1
Bewerkt: jun 11, 2011, 5:18 am

Back from the dead and the internet just ate my comments. Resurrection is always a bad idea. Don't mess with Uncle Death. He'll steal your terms papers

>35 baswood: baswood

Is RC on a quest for holiness or is he holiness? Good question. But you can't really answer this one until you've finished Book One of FQ. And even then everyone will argue about your answer.

Evil and Catholicism. On the most obvious level . . . yes Roman Catholicism is the great evil other. But Spenser is also asking more serious questions about the nature of holiness, truth etc. There's a lot of religious upheaval during this period and everyone has his or her ideas about what the church should be. Keep in mind that during this period a number of Protestants get their panties in a wad when Archbishop Whitgift announces that the clergy will deliver their sermons garbed in appropriate vestments (i.e., clerical robes . . . you have to wait until the 17th century before nudity is suggested). And this is just one tiny little issue. I won't even touch the major debates.

Innocence to experience. You can certainly read Book One this way, but I wouldn't. I think that's an oversimplification of what's going on. RC has to discover the Truth (and I know she's right under his nose on her little white ass) and learn how to see clearly, to separate things that seem to be good from those things that are good.

About those erotic dreams? Two things to watch for. Major foreshadowing every time RC puts down his swords or Spenser uses the word "seem."

As for Una, the Greek word for truth is aletheia. In Greek mythology Lethe is the river of forgetfulness (or sleep) from which all the shades of the dead were required to drink. So one might say that truth (aletheia) sleeps or forgets itself in the moment of its being. Heidegger writes about this notion of truth with far greater complexity, prolixity, and longer confusing sentences than I can.

Sorry I've been gone so long. It's been a rough two weeks.

37baswood
jun 11, 2011, 5:14 am

Great to have you back urania 1. If it really was a resurrection surely you should be urania 2

38absurdeist
jun 11, 2011, 12:07 pm

Yes, baswood, I agree. Let us clone urania1 so we can have urania2 when the poor numero uno is getting slammed by life. Glad you're back, U. Missed you, U.

39Porius
Bewerkt: jun 11, 2011, 2:14 pm

Clear and cogent kick-off. Spenser born a dozen years before WS came from poorish circumstances but possibly noble stock (the Spensers of Althorpe of Northammptonshire). He was educated at the Merchant Taylors' School, and Pembroke College, Cambridge, where a religious foment was everywhere, with sides drawn up by the Puritan Thomas Cartwright and the somewhat more moderate John Whitgift. S. demonstrates Puritan sympathies in THE SHEPHERD'S CALENDER. He was friends with Gabriel Harvey, the Earl of Leicester, Phillip Sidney, and Edward Dyer.

Milton confided to Dryden that Spenser was an early model, the prickly Pope read Spenser aloud to anyone who would listen, Keats waxed poetic when introduced to S's poems. Wordsworth admired him, and so did Yeats who thought Spenser's poetry more energetic than modern poetry and had more 'active will.' Douglas Bush more recently, speaking of the amazing variety of S's work, said that he is 'among other things, the wistful panegyrist of an imagined chivalry, the bold satirist of ugly actuality, cosmic philosopher and pastoral dreamer, didactic moralist and voluptuous pagan, Puritan preacher and Catholic worshipper, eager lover and mystical Neoplatonist.'

40urania1
Bewerkt: jun 11, 2011, 4:01 pm

Damn if LT eats my post one more times I will sic Oakes on Tim.

A Word of Welcome
I have had a long love affair with The Faerie Queene. I adore this book. That said, FQ also makes me giggle and encourages open displays of frivolity and flippancy in moi. This habit may alarm or merely annoy the more serious minded readers among us.

I will use a variety of approaches in this thread. Sometimes I will post brief outlines. You may jump in and fill in the specifics if you know them, search for the details if you don't know, or request that someone fill in a particular point for you. I will sometimes post outrageous comment to encourage discussion. Sometimes I will pose questions and let all of you hash out the answers. So welcome!

Notes on The Faerie Queene

Introduction

Important date
Elizabeth’s ascension 1558

Three issues crucial to understanding The Faerie Queene

I. Renaissance theories about poetry
The highbrow intellectual response by Spenser's contemporaries.
A. Sidney’s Defence of Poesie (w. 1580)

Notes the transformative nature of poetry. Poetry acts as a moral force in society. It delights and instructs. The poet superior to natural philosopher (i.e., scientist) because the poet can deliver golden worlds.

The middlebrow self-help guide to wanna be courtiers and social climbers
B. Puttenham’s Arte of English Poesie (1589)

Poetry should praise the great, reprove vice, show mutability of fortune and just punishments of evil. Subordinates poetry to public, class-specific interests. As much about how to be a courtier as a treatise on poetry.

II. Role of poetry in court culture
A. Court as coterie society. Emphasis on self-presentation, performance. Intensely competitive, vicious, dangerous, public. One is always on display. Twenty-first century notions of privacy don’t really obtain here.

B. Poetry is action in and for the court. Perfomative in nature not simply textual. Poetry’s role in fashioning the gentleman. Part of self-presentation. Crafting an image through poetry. A means of social mobility. Poetry perceived as a means to preferment, to power. Part of the court ritual--the courting and celebration of Elizabeth. Poets as educators, moralists, Renaissance spin doctors

III. Political backdrop
A. Protestant reformation
B. International implications of England’s anti-Catholicism
Catholic conflict
Anxiety about Elizabeth’s legitimacy

Book 1 Canto 1
Key terms: allegory, epic, pastoral

FQ begins ambitiously. Spenser planned for FQ to be a celebration of/education in the virtues: holiness, temperance, chastity, friendship, justice, and courtesy. Project falls apart, collapses under the weight of its own contradiction. The work in its unfinished entirety ends w/ an unfinished book on mutability.

1. Poem often sometimes discussed as the final expression of a medieval tradition
In what ways does the poem harken back to medieval models?
In what ways is it thoroughly modern?

2. Pay attention to the poet’s methods of legitimation
Reference to classical mode;
Like Virgil Spenser began his career writing pastoral poetry and moved to epic
a. Definition of pastoral: “Under the vaile of homely persons and in rude speeches to insinuate and glaunce at greater matters."

3. FQ is an epic blends elements of epic and pastoral. Why?
What does pastoral poetry allow? Space for critique and reflection?

4. Poem encodes historical conflict and tension. It can be read as propaganda.
a. Celebration of England’s greatness
b. Celebration of Elizabeth’s court. Justify the cultural and ideological practice of E’s court
c. Instruction/criticism of court

41Porius
Bewerkt: jun 11, 2011, 7:01 pm

Edmund Spenser differed from most of his contemporary fellow poets in lineage and literary aims. He was not born to the purple and, disdaining to lift the language of everyday into serious poetry, he sought to make English as rich and resounding as Latin. Hoping to emulate the classics, he dreamed of creating epics that could be compared to the Odyssey and the Aneneid. S's most successful imitation of the antique mode is not his panoplied major opus, the FQ, but the lighter and, at times, more colloquial SHEPHERD'S CALENDER, whose inspiration came from the eclogues of Theocritus and Virgil, and which began a wide vogue of English pastoral verse.

S. never had much luck. Despite his influential friends he could get nowhere in court politics. Married, ended up in Ireland. Enter Irish Rebellion of 1598, his home burned to the ground, he didn't hear much of that mumurous refrain from his Wedding Song (Epithalamion): 'To which the woods did answer and your echo ring.' The Spensers hurried back to London, Edm: broken, and just about tapped out, and holed up in cheap digs, died a month later on 16 Jan. 1599.

Spenser is not read much today by the typical voter but he has always been appreciated by poets and those who love poetry. A poets poet you can hear him in the eldritch magick of Coleridge (THE ANCIENT MARINER), and in the hushed sensuousness of Keats' EVE OF SAINT AGNES.

He invented a wonderfully flexible 9 line form with an intricate but fluent set of rhymes - a-b-a-b-b-c-b-c-c- which of course became the Spenserian stanza. The first 8 lines are 10 syllables long and a particular shapeliness is achieved by the lengthening of the last line to 12 syllables, called an Alexandrine. Here is an illustrative stanza from the FQ:

It was an hill placed in an open plain
That round about was bordered by a wood
Of matchless height that seem'd th' earth to disdain,
In which all trees of honour stately stood
And did all winter as in summer bud,
Spreading pavilions for birds to bower,
Which in their lower branches sung aloud;
And in their tops the soaring hawk did tower,
Siting like kings of fowls in majesty and power.

42urania1
jun 11, 2011, 7:59 pm

And a large round of applause and admiration goes out to Porius for filling in some blanks. He has delivered a pithy lecture with his usual sprezzatura - another word to add to your FQ vocabulary.

43baswood
jun 12, 2011, 5:13 am

#30 Spenser's world of glass Kathleen Williams that dmsteyn mentioned earlier is free on google books if anyone is interested.

44baswood
jun 12, 2011, 7:07 am

Lord Macaulay's famous judgement on the Faerie Queene:

Of the person's who read the first Canto, not one in ten reaches the end of the first book, and not one in a hundred perseveres to the end of the poem. Very few and very weary who are in at the death of the Blatant Beast

Well I have got to the end of Canto VI book 1 and so far I have enjoyed every Canto. The poem rattles along at a fair pace with marvellous imagery in every Canto.

Canto VI has the saving of Una by the troupe of faunes and Satyres and is delightful:

And all the way their merry pipes they sound,
That all the woods with doubled Eccho ring,
And with their horned feet do weare the ground,
Leaping like wanton kids in pleasant spring.
So towards old Syluanus they her bring;
Who with the noise awaked, commeth out,
To weet the cause, his weake steps gouerning
And aged limbs on Cypresse stadle stout,
And with an yuie twyne his wast is girt about.

(stanza 14)

After reading Chaucer last year, I am finding Spenser a lot less difficult. His language is not so archaic and his sentences are not so convoluted. My first impressions are that we have left medieval literature behind. This is writing from Spenser's own imagination, he is not reliant on source material for his ideas or his narrative. There are some instances when we are reminded of an earlier style of writing: for example the list of trees in stanza 9, canto 1 book 1. but I think we have definitely moved on.

45Porius
jun 12, 2011, 12:06 pm

I am reading C.S. Lewis on Spenser, very good stuff indeed.
ENGLISH LITERATURE IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY pp.318-394
more later

46dmsteyn
Bewerkt: jun 18, 2011, 3:27 pm

Found our library's The Cambridge Companion to Spenser hiding amongst the Chaucer books. The introduction has quite a few interesting things on the relevance of Spenser. It starts by quoting Wilfrid Owen, who contrasts the romantic, even soothing, imagery of Spenser with the 'horror of the "whiz-bangs and machine guns"' of the first world war. It then relates the story of how the headmistress of a ladies' college chose Britomart (from the 3rd book) as the image for a stained glass window at the entrance of the college. Ostensibly, she represented an 'Ideal of Woman'. The headmistress wrote:

She is a real woman, propria persona, not merely the usual appendage of a knight. She sets forth alone, and proves herself no mere satellite, for she owns a squire. We are at once interested in her career, and we long to follow her path, but we soon find ourselves in a labyrinth, and we wish for a guide.

After these two examples, the writer of the introduction (Andrew Hadfield) makes this cogent if ironic remark: 'It seems that while women have read Spenser to make them feel more masculine, men have read him to make them feel more feminine.' Although he goes on to deconstruct this, it seems an interesting point on the ambivalence of Spenser.

Hadfield then talks about the nettled problem of Spenser and Ireland, where he lived as a state official. Some people (mainly Irish people, naturally) have seen Spenser as the 'poet of empire, military might and expansionist English puritanism.' Even Yeats, who greatly admired Spenser as a poet, had this to say:

When Spenser wrote of Ireland he wrote as an official, and out of thoughts and emotions that had been organised by the State... Could he have gone there as a poet merely, he might have found among its poets more wonderful imaginations than even those islands of Phaedria and Acrasia. He would have found among wandering story-tellers... all the kingdom of Faery, still unfaded, of which his own poetry was often but a trouble image.

Of course, this is very self-serving stuff on Yeats's part. As Hadfield rightly notes, it is 'clearly as much a comment on Yeats's own position in Anglo-Irish politics and letters at the turn of the century as it is a meditation on Spenser himself.' CS Lewis also says that 'Spenser was the instrument of a detestable policy in Ireland' and that the 'wickedness he had shared begins to corrupt his imagination.' Hadfield, however, points out that Spenser did show an interest in Irish poetry and life (he approvingly mentions the high regard in which bards are held in Ireland, in his A View of the Present State of Ireland), so things are more complicated than either Yeats or Lewis admitted.

Hadfield also mentions that while Spenser is often considered the quintessential English poet, he was in fact one of the first poets to be concerned with the idea of Britain. From 1580 until his death, Spenser spent nearly all his time in Ireland. As he notes, 'it is not surprising that Spenser has been claimed as a central part of an English, Irish and Anglo-Irish literary tradition'.

Finally, he makes mention of Seamus Heaney's poetry, which has also responds to Spenser, for instance, in 'Bog Oak' in his collected poems. (I'd copy the entire poem here if I could, but I don't want to break copy-right. Also cannot seem to find it on the Internet).

Well, I hope that's interesting, and that I haven't quoted more than I'm allowed.

47baswood
jun 18, 2011, 8:11 pm

It would seem that Spenser hated the Irish and his views were that of a "superior" colonial power. I have just read Spenser, Elizabeth A F Watson in the Literature in perspective series, which is an excellent introduction to the poet and his works. Watson quotes from Spenser's A veue of the present state of Ireland which he wrote in defence of Lord Greys extreme repressive policies in Ireland. He writes about the positive effects of famine:

Although there should none fall fall by the sworde, none be slaine by the soldyer yet..... they would quickly consume themselves and devour one another.

Spenser lived in a violent age and the reader is certainly not spared the violence in The Faerie Queene This is from Canto VIII book 1

The knight then leaping to the pray,
With mortall steele him smote againe so sore,
That headless his vnweldy bodie lay,
All wallowed in his owne fowle bloudy gore,.......


And this is Spenser's description of the Red Cross Knight after he is released from Orgoglio's prison. This sounds to me like Spenser's first hand observations of those victims of the Irish famine:

His sad dull eyes deepe sunck in hollow pits,
Could not endure th'vnwonted sunne to view;
His bare thin cheekes for want of better bits,
And empty sides deceiued of their dew,
Could make a stony hart his hap to rew;
His rawbone armes, whose mighty brawned bowrs
Were wont to riue steele plates, and helmets hew,
Were cleane consume'd and all his vital powres
Decayd, and all his flesh shronk vp like withered flowers.

48baswood
jun 18, 2011, 8:16 pm



Spenser reading The Faerie Queene to his friend and neighbour in Ireland Sir Walter Raleigh

49VivalaErin
jun 18, 2011, 9:02 pm

Spenser always wanted a higher status in court, and the way to 'achieve' that was to play the part. He went to Ireland as a state official, but hated it there because it was so far from court. And to make matters worse, Elizabeth did not pay much attention to those who lived there. Especially since she tended to show her displeasure with courtiers by shipping them off to other countries! Once we get into the later books, Elizabeth really becomes the main character. I love Spenser's language, and FQ has to be the biggest allegory I have ever seen!

And you could probably spend a week discussing Spenser's MANY dedications for this poem.

What Spenser really wanted was Sir Philip Sidney as his patron, but since Sidney never supported anyone directly and died in 1586 (off the top of my head I think that's the right year), Spenser ended up working as more of a tax collector than the poet he wanted to be. That is part of why the Irish seem to resent Spenser so much, because he resented being there!

I can be much more helpful once we get to the later books, since I spent the most time studying Books III and IV during my MA. Can't wait for the House of Busyrane and the Temple of Venus.

50dmsteyn
jun 19, 2011, 5:04 am

>47 baswood: I still have to read the Companion's section on Spenser and Ireland, but I can see what you mean by that quote on the famine. It just seems more complicated to me - Spenser obviously felt contempt for some aspects of the "less civilised" Irish peasantry, but he admired their love and reverence of poetry. I think it is also dangerous to equate detestable personal qualities with the artist's output. If we did that, I doubt Ezra Pound would still be read at all.

I will try and see if I can find A View and read what Spenser actually had to say in full.

51dchaikin
jun 21, 2011, 8:34 pm

I have a Norton Critical Edition titled Edmund Spenser's Poetry (Second Edition) with a 1982 copyright. The book includes a useless introduction, the full Fairie Queen, several other selected works of Spenser and several critical essays that may or may not be as useless as the intro. It also has hand-written notes in it, which means I must have stolen this from my sister at some point after she used it in college (these notes are actually useful). This morning I read the useless introduction and then read through the 1st Canto. I'm getting something to the effect of a young not-yet-king Arthur wandering around randomly with some woman (on her white asse) and her dwarf cutting the heads off of random over-sized snakes that look like nice poor monks in the daytime...and there's a elf, or is that Arthur... Anyway, I'm not sure whether this means I'm in or not. I'll try to get a bit farther along and see how it goes.

52baswood
jun 22, 2011, 3:38 am

#51 Spenser's world of Glass by Kathleen Williams is free on google books. It provides an excellent commentary on the text, for those of us who get a bit lost sometimes.

53dchaikin
jun 22, 2011, 3:57 pm

Barry, thanks. I glanced at it and read a bit of the introduction. What i noticed is that i really need to read more of FQ before I read commentary.

55Tuirgin
jun 23, 2011, 6:22 pm

I'm tempted to join in on FQ, but am already in the midst of a re-reading of Doctor Zhivago -- I read the Haywood/Harari a few years ago and couldn't resist reading it again now that my favorite Russian translators have given us their version.

At any rate, I'm interested but hesitant. How far into FQ is everyone?

Tuirgin

56absurdeist
jun 23, 2011, 8:16 pm

Well, if you're tempted to join in, Tuirgin, then by all means, let us help lead you in to temptation. It's not too late to join in as far as I can tell. Your contributions to this discussion would be most welcome. And welcome to the salon also! We love it when newcomers arrive and immediately join in. We're a bit slow at the moment, due to summer vacations and such, but the pace will eventually pick back up. Glad you've joined us!

57Tuirgin
jun 23, 2011, 8:53 pm

I have dipped into Le Salon every now and then ever since I joined LT whenever I've been in need of some stimulating madness.

I read through the first book or two of FQ years ago and have always had the best intentions of returning to it. It was all lined up in my reading project when I was unemployed for a time. Alas, I finally returned to work, and out the window it went. The project. Not the poem.

Tuirgin

58absurdeist
jun 23, 2011, 10:16 pm

"stimulating madness"

Tuirgin, as long as at least two others second and third what I'm about to say, it will be official: I hereby anoint thee Honorary Old Timer, since you get us right off the bat and have, in fact, been with us (secretly) all along.

59dchaikin
jun 24, 2011, 8:34 am

Canto 2 was easier for me than Canto 1. The biggest problem I have is figuring out who is being talked about. My method is to first read the stanza and try to understand what is being said, then re- read it almost out loud to see how it's being said. Weird, slow, but it's working and I'm enjoying the how.

60baswood
jun 24, 2011, 6:42 pm

I am within sight of the end of book 1. I have just finished Canto X which is the best so far with the Red Cross knights vision of Jerusalem and his transformation into St George.

61dchaikin
jun 30, 2011, 9:23 am

I'll start Canto VII today, possible this morning.

This is probably cheating in a most subversive and disdayneful manner, but I'm using SparkNotes to help me follow. Hasn't really been necessary for I iii-vi, but helped tremendously with 1 i-ii. (Probably best not to tell tell our urania1, but) you can find it here: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/fqueen

62baswood
jun 30, 2011, 9:46 am

Don't worry Dan, I have resorted to them a couple of times as well, especially at the start. I think it gets easier the more you read. I am starting Canto XI today - Ah the end of the first book is in sight. Is anybody else reading this apart from me and Dan.

63dmsteyn
jun 30, 2011, 1:34 pm

That's an affirmative, Houston. Only really started reading after I finished Sandover, but I'm up to Canto VII.

64Poquette
jun 30, 2011, 2:09 pm

I'm reading but have some catching up to do. Been sidetracked but will get in the swim shortly.

65baswood
jul 2, 2011, 10:15 am

Finished Book 1 today - first thoughts.

The more I read the easier it gets to read and I am now enjoying the experience.

The allegory is quite well sign posted in the text for example the cave of despair is exactly what is says it is. There are plenty of commentaries on the net that can help you take it a stage further.

There are many highlights for me in this first book:
Canto I; Red Cross's first battle with Errour and how fond of gore and blood Spenser is with his descriptions.
Canto IV and Red Cross sojourn in the house of Pride - The carriage drawn by the six unequal beasts representing the seven deadly sins (pride of course is the seventh)
Canto VI and Una's dalliance with the Satyrs and Nymphs.
Canto VII - the description of Prince Arthur
Canto VIII - Arthur's battle with Ogoglio and the description of Red Cross starving to death in the dungeon.
Canto X is excellent with all the inhabitants of the house of Holiness and then Red Cross's dream vision of Jerusalem.
Canto XI - Red Coss's epic battle with the dragon

Spenser rhyming scheme seems to be effortless most of the time and the stanza's flow well enough. The language is noticeably more modern than that used by the 14th century poets and is therefore easier to read aloud. Apart from the language Spenser's poem seems to be hearkening back to the middle ages rather than forward to what we understand as the age of Shakespeare

Some wonderful poetry and a damn good story.

66Poquette
jul 2, 2011, 1:59 pm

Barry, I have highlighted your entry #65 so I'll be sure to review it when I have finished Book I, which I hope will be soon. Thanks!

67Mr.Durick
jul 2, 2011, 6:09 pm

Lying abed last night staring at stacks and other piles of books I suddenly saw Book One of The Faerie Queene. I pulled it out to confirm it and then got a start in it. It has an introductory essay by a Cornell professor and Spenser's letter to Raleigh besides the poem itself. I read those, the proem, and the first canto. The notes of my edition are on the text page, and it seems readable.

Robert

68Poquette
jul 2, 2011, 6:31 pm

I'm reading an introduction to The Faerie Queene in a book called The Allegory of the Faerie Queene by M. Pauline Parker (Oxford 1960) in which she has this to say about the word "faerie" or "fayerye," for what it's worth:

The word fayerye retained in the sixteenth century the fundamental meaning it had in medieval times, that is, connoting glamour, the illusory appearance, sometimes of attraction more than human, which can invest earthly things, and which certain beings can command at will. Thus Chaucer in The Merchant's Tale, speaks of the old man's young bride as so fantastically lovely: 'That to behold it seemed fayerye.' And in the same sense Gower, speaking of Constance, says:

The god of her hath made an ende And fro this worldes
fayrie Hath taken her into companie . . .
True, the idea of place was also included. Sir Launfal,

That noble knyghte of the round table, Was take yn to the fayrye,
Thomas Chestre tells us, and of his bride, Tryamour that hyghte', he says, 'Her fadyr was kyng of fayrye.' The perilous forest where Huon of Bordeaux meets Oberon, is perilous precisely because by the power of the fairy king, it is under the glamour which can fall on any place, and will make it fairy land as long as it lasts. People too may be 'fayerye' either by birth or adoption. This manifold significance, shifting like the pictures reflected in a dewdrop, informs the word as Spenser knows it and uses it.

The Elizabethan understanding of 'faerie' laid upon Spenser an exigency which he complied with by creating the Spenserian stanza, and the Spenserian diction or poetic language. When writing to Harvey in 1580, he had claimed for poets 'the kingdom of our language', and he here exercises his privilege.


Hoping there are no typos . . .

69dchaikin
Bewerkt: jul 6, 2011, 2:46 pm

Just finished Book 1 this morning. I found the later Cantos easier to follow than the first two, but I'm still missing basic plot details and I'm still getting confused on who "he" or "she" is.

My enjoyment of this isn't in a clear direct way. I'm not exactly enjoying forcing my way through the text, although in a way I am. I'm indifferent about the story, and the allegory is only interesting to me in part; for example, as I read about Una's beauty and think that Spenser is talking about his feeling of the concept of truth...at least I assume that was his intention. What I do enjoy is the feeling of working my way through something of value, something which retains it's value despite, or because of the gore and sexual implications. And, that I as do get something, then, when I re-read it, it comes across with such a permanent feeling, I feel as if I could almost memorize it. That I really appreciate.

I discovered one big problem in that my edition doesn't have all the Cantos in book II. I don't want to simply fill this with on online text as I like having the notes and definitions. Not sure what to do, but I've requested a few different editions through my library.

70baswood
Bewerkt: jul 10, 2011, 1:07 pm

I have started book II today and also read an essay in the Pelican Guide to English Literature series. The essay is "Spenser's Faerie Queene" by Derek Traversi. It's premise is that Spenser's achievement is in certain respects a limited one. I have picked out some interesting snippets from the essay which certainly gives a different view to those of C S Lewis for instance.

1) The Faerie Queeene stands more as an end to medieval literature rather than a possible new beginning. I am inclined to agree with this.

2) Spenser belongs, historically speaking, to a generation in which the ideal of the independent humanist, dedicated to the scholarly cultivation of letters, had finally given way to that of the courtly servant of the absolute monarch; perhaps the execution of Sir Thomas More some 40 years earlier had marked the decisive moment in this transformation Not altogether sure about this; after all Chaucer was well connected to the court of John of Gaunt. Spenser tried hard to become a courtier but ended up being sent to Ireland. I do take the point though that the obvious dedications to Elizabeth I and her circle was designed to curry favour.

3) Spenser felt his exclusion from the court deeply and his experiences in Ireland led to him venting these thoughts in the latter books of FQ. Something to look out for.

4) Spenser tried to write an epic poem; an English equivalent of the heroic Arthurian epic, but because he not only used moral allegory but also political allegory,which obscure its more obvious literary purposes and leave us finally with a sense of chaos Interesting viewpoint

5) The famous Spenserian Stanzas with its characteristic rhythm tends to a kind of abstraction. The extraordinary skill and variety with which it is handled, always within the limits of its essential monotony....... but that monotony itself is a sign of a tendency to divorce rhythm from sense, to reduce verse to a flow of harmonious sound which, however skillful is more like a decadence than a fresh beginning

71dchaikin
jul 9, 2011, 10:58 pm

I can't agree with the last two points. I think there is something beautiful in the Faerie Queene that is unique. The allegory has long lost whatever power it may have had - the didactic aspects are quite silly to me. But, the wording, the methodology...saying the allegory "obscured any literary merit" is simply inaccurate. At best, that statement is an emotionally driven exaggeration, a rant.

72dchaikin
jul 12, 2011, 12:24 am

I've been reading book 2 on www.luminarium.org - which means I reading it without notes and, as far as I know, without any change from the original spelling. I've been able to follow and I've been reading much faster. The spelling has been an eye-opener. This work is, somehow, so much better in the original spelling - where "i" can be an i or a j, and v's are "u", and U's are "V", among other oddities. There are lines like Where she enioyes sure peace for euermore,

I came across a short essay by an Alan Ward who has this to say about the language:

...Spenser had the look as well as the sound of his poetry in mind. But he seems in general to have gone to some trouble to spell rhyme-words so as to rhyme to the eye as well as the ear, and did not use spelling simply as a means of covering up 'bad' rhyme.


To the lost joys of non-standardized spelling...

73dchaikin
Bewerkt: jul 12, 2011, 1:02 am

From an introduction to Book 2 by P. C. Bayley (who?), (copyright is 1965)

Another reason for his neglect is almost exactly the opposite to the one which dismissed him for being superficial, unreal, remote from life. It is that he is so much involved in the life of his time, actual and physical as well as imaginative, that he is exceedingly difficult, and demands great knowledge of his century, that fascinating century mid-way between the Middle Ages and Renaissance. There is truth in this. There is no more central Elizabethan figure than Edmund Spenser: the grammar school boy and university graduate employed by the State and rising in social rank through public service but even more through the success of his creative writing; the classically educated boy, deeply versed in the work of Homer, Virgil, Plato, Aristotle, Ovid; the late medieval man saturated in Romance, Chaucer, Malory, the Bible, the homiletic tradition and in popular taste and tradition; the Renaissance man intimate with the work of Dante, Boccaccio, Boiardo, Ariosto, Tasso, and seeking to write for his own country a romantic epic like those of Italy; patriot, anti-Papist, allegorist, sonnetteer, epic poet, satirist, pastoralist, prose chronicler, public servant. No one else quite blends so many sources, so many cultural traditions, makes so original if eclectic a new form, and is so profoundly concerned with man's life on earth, however remote the world he seems to picture forth.

74baswood
jul 12, 2011, 9:11 am

Dan, I am reading the penguin Classics version which also has the old spelling and it is fine once you get used to it. Interesting to note the comment by Alan Ward. I would agree certainly that Spencer has worked very hard to keep his rhyming scheme functioning. It looks good on the page and so I wonder if Ward is right to say that he wanted his poem to rhyme with the eye.

The luminarium site is an excellent facility.

75Poquette
jul 13, 2011, 1:30 pm

Dan, the Bayley quote is dense – I mean it's absolutely packed! Wow! *copying into my notebook*

76dchaikin
jul 14, 2011, 2:00 pm

#75 Regarding Bayley - that was from a 33 page introduction to Book2. Bayley also edited Book 1, but that may be as far as he got. I've somewhat fixed that LT author page for P. C. Bayley (http://www.librarything.com/author/bayleypc ). It includes an interesting sounding book on Spenser (Edmund Spenser: prince of poets). Also, there is an wikipedia page under "Peter Bayley (academic)": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bayley_%28academic%29

77Poquette
jul 14, 2011, 3:35 pm

Thanks, Dan! I'll check it out.

78dchaikin
jul 16, 2011, 11:54 am

More from the Bayley intro to Book 2. Bayley adores Spenser, so, when he's critical, it's quite interesting. This refers specifically to Book 2.

A weakness of the book is that, unlike the Red Cross Knight, the hero of Book I, Sir Guyon is not himself tempted, and even less often in danger of submitting. He encounters wrong passions, wrong desires, wrong behavior, wherever he goes, but he is not often involved himself, and perhaps we as readers are ourselves rather less involved in Book II than in some other books of The Faerie Queene.


Bayley also hates Canto X: "Prince Arthur and Guyon ....waste a canto (we cannot help feeling) reading respectively the chronicles of the British kings and the Elfin Emperors" and later says it "does not make a very ready reading appeal to modern readers, except perhaps in the telling of the story of King Lear."

79dchaikin
jul 20, 2011, 10:19 am

Just finished book 2. One thought, which is carried over from book 1, but which is most extreme is book 2 canto 12 stanzas 65 - ?? is that Spenser is most vivid and most memorable when he talks about sex.

On another note, I seem to be only able to read FQ or read about FQ. I can't seem to pick up anything else, not interested, and I'm not sure why not. It's not as if FQ is the best thing I've ever read, but it has fully caught my curiosity.

And, one more comment..I keep thinking about craft when I'm reading Spenser. How, regardless of his other attributes, whether good or bad, his writing craft was especially high quality. I'm thinking about the writing (and art in general) coming out today, where the emphasis is on creativity and the ability to get our attention and to make us see things in different ways...but craft is secondary or worse. Way back in the Infinite Jest discussions Murr commented that one thing that bothered him was that there was nothing pretty in IJ...in FQ everything is beautiful and worked out in such care for sound and even visual affect. Maybe I'm just seeing this in light of some (false) bygone age. Anyway, for those who are still reading this post , apologies for the rambling...

80baswood
jul 20, 2011, 12:53 pm

Ramble on Dan. I'll be back with you soon. I've just got to finish Porius first.

81dchaikin
Bewerkt: jul 20, 2011, 6:35 pm

A couple comments from The Faerie Queene : Educating the Reader by Russell J. Meyer:

The Shepheardes Calendar provided the proof of something the English had reason to doubt: that their language was indeed fit for verse. Chaucer was the last great poet to write English, but the language had changed so much since his day that only a few could read him with full comprehension, and virtually none could scan his poetry, with its long forgotten stresses and pronunciations. The periods between Chaucer's death in 1400 and 1579 had been largely fallow in terms of poetic production.


And, an interesting comment on Book I, canto I, stanza 1. First the stanza:

A Gentle Knight was pricking on the plaine,
Y cladd in mightie armes and siluer shielde,
Wherein old dints of deepe wounds did remaine,
The cruell markes of many' a bloudy fielde;
Yet armes till that time did he neuer wield:
His angry steed did chide his foming big,
As much disdayning to the curbe to yield:
Full iolly knight he seemd, and faire did sitt,
As one for knightly giusts and fierce encounters fitt.


then, from Meyer:

This stanza sets up a series of contrasts between what appears to be and what is. In it Spenser establishes, then violates, our expectations about this young knight. The first four lines seem to establish an unequivocally heroic figure: a "Gentle Knight" with "mightie armes and siluer shielde," a man tested in battle, as we can see by the "old dints of deepe wounds" on his shield and armor. He has been, we would assume from this description, in "many' a bloudy fielde." But line five makes clear that he is not at all what he seems: "Yet armes till that time did he neuer wield". He may be wearing the armor of an experienced and glamorous knight, carrying a battle-scarred shield, but he is himself full inexperienced, an untested, untried amateur.

The message in this opening stanza should be clear: things are not what they seem.

82baswood
Bewerkt: jul 20, 2011, 6:17 pm

Dan. It's a wonderful opening stanza to the poem and what a great first line:

A Gentle Knight was pricking on the plaine,

Also it contains a typical example of the medieval idea of the horse and his rider being synonymous:

His angry steede did chide his foming bitt,
As much disdayning to the curbe to yield:


Thats a good point about the differences in the language between Chaucer and Spenser and that the Elizabethans had lost the art of reading medieval poetry because it was so different from their own.

It is a popular contention that nothing much of worth (in the field of poetry) was written between Chaucer and Spenser. I plan to investigate this further in the coming months.

83dchaikin
jul 20, 2011, 6:35 pm

Bas - good observation, our knight certainly is chomping at the bit too, and also, like his horse, not really under his own control

... fixing my typo in the first line - the missing "on".

84A_musing
jul 22, 2011, 3:35 pm

I'm a couple books into this myself, a couple points on the "obscuring literary merit" and such: oh, hogwash. Seems like an argument for only reading the simple and shallow. I like the allegorical puzzles and references. Good to learn something.

It turns out Melville loved this book; you can see it in Moby Dick's own allegorical games.

I'm finding it very helpful to listen to this on audiobook while reading, even though the audiobook is abridged. Also finding it helpful to read out loud.

This is going to take forever. Going very very slowwwwww.

85dchaikin
jul 25, 2011, 11:02 am

A_musing - Slow is good with this one, I think. Reading out loud only works if you're alone though...

86solla
jul 26, 2011, 3:01 pm

I am just getting started with the book after an absence from LT. I hope to get up to speed soon.

87baswood
Bewerkt: jul 28, 2011, 6:51 am

Back with the Faerie Queene and Book II:

Then turning to his Palmer said, Old syre
Behold the image of mortalitie
And feeble nature cloth'd with fleshly tyre,
When raging passion with fierce tyrannie
Robs reason of her due regalitie,
And makes it seruant to her basest part:
The strong it weakens with infirmitie,
And with bold furie armes the weakest hart;
The strong through pleasure soonest falles, the weak through smart.

Book II Canto I, 57

Guyon's quest for temperence starts off brilliantly. There is plenty of interesting stuff in Spenser's World of Glass a reading of the Faerie Queene by Kathleen Wiiliams, which is free on google books :
http://books.google.fr/books?id=mtj5NbbVWqwC&pg=PR17&lpg=PR17&dq=Spe...

Canto III is interesting as Spenser veers away from Guyon's quest to introduce Trompart, Braggadochio and Belphoebe. Elizabeth Watson in the Literature in Perspective book: Spenser claims that Spenser's loving portrayal of Belphoebe is yet another portrait of Elizabeth the virgin Queen and that Braggadochio may represent Alencon, Queen Elizabeth's suitor.

88dchaikin
jul 28, 2011, 2:04 pm

Belphoebe has a little flaw in book 3. Was Spenser giving his sainted queen a hard time? Let me know your thoughts when you get there.

89dchaikin
aug 1, 2011, 1:33 pm

Book three is leaving me with some curious confusion. Book one was tied so neat and tight, everything worked so smoothly. Then book two was essentially too simple, just didactic (I actually liked this, as I could spend more effort on the language and less on the story). Book three can't hold a focus. It keeps chasing various sub-plots, sometimes for several cantos. I'm not critizing it, just confused by the abrupt change. Hopefully I'll finish book three tomorrow.

90dchaikin
aug 6, 2011, 11:27 am

I'm feeling a little lonely and lost here. When I tell someone in RL what I'm reading, I tend to get a strange look. Here in le salon we are at least quiet. And, being clueless, I'm forging ahead cluelessly.

Back before she disappeared from this thread Mary posted this (post #40 from June 11)

FQ begins ambitiously. Spenser planned for FQ to be a celebration of/education in the virtues: holiness, temperance, chastity, friendship, justice, and courtesy. Project falls apart, collapses under the weight of its own contradiction. The work in its unfinished entirety ends w/ an unfinished book on mutability.

I've been pondering it since. What where the contradictions that Spenser was fighting with? And where does he collapse? I'm in book iv, and for three consecutive cantos Spenser ends by saying something the effect that now he must rest. Was he having trouble here with these Friendship Cantos?

91dchaikin
Bewerkt: aug 6, 2011, 11:30 am

On a separate note, these are some stanzas I've been thinking about... because of the imagery, I guess.


Through which aduantage, in his strength he rose,
And smote the other with so wondrous might,
That through the seame, which did his hauberk close,
Into his throate and life it pierced quight,
That downe he fell as dead in all mens sight;
Yet dead he was not, yet sure he did die,
As all men do, that lose the liuing spright:
So did one soule out of his bodie flie
Vnto her natiue home from mortall miserie.

But nathlesse whilst all the lookers on
Him dead behight, as he to all appeard,
All vnawares he started vp anon,
As one that out of a dreame bene reard,
And fresh assayld his foe, who halfe affeard
Of th'vncouth sight, as he some ghost had seene,
Stood still amaz'd, holding his idle sweard;
Till hauing often by him stricken beene,
He forced was to strike, and saue him selfe from teene.

92Tuirgin
aug 6, 2011, 1:38 pm

I can relate to the strange looks -- most of the people I know do not read, and if they do it is probably the latest Star Wars novel, or manga. Those I know who have dabbled in literature did so because of college requirements and not for pleasure. Back when I carried books with me everywhere I went, I was constantly asked if I was in college. Apparently there is no reason to read Dostoevsky or Milton unless you're working toward a degree.

93Poquette
aug 6, 2011, 3:52 pm

Dan, I'm still in recovery mode since finishing Porius. I have The Faerie Queene sitting right here to pick up again. But I'm not sure when I'm going to get to it. Too many tomes in a row . . .

>92 Tuirgin: Apparently there is no reason to read Dostoevsky or Milton unless you're working toward a degree.

Tuirgin, couldn't you just weep for those poor misguided souls?

94Tuirgin
aug 6, 2011, 4:04 pm

They just confuse me, really. I don't know how to respond to them. Often enough I just play along at being a lit-geek-weirdo. There's often an odd anti-intellectual condescension in the air. Maybe it's related to the gaseous opinions about the dusty bones of dead white men. But if you're going to condemn dead white men, you'll have to offer me something in exchange that's better than South Park and Saw XCV.

95dchaikin
aug 6, 2011, 4:19 pm

Well, you know, it's just not "practical". You know, it doesn't tell us how to invest, or which politician to support, or what the latest fashion trend is...and it does help me get my nails done...

96Mr.Durick
aug 6, 2011, 5:38 pm

People with a real life don't have time to read.

Robert

97Poquette
aug 6, 2011, 5:54 pm

Depends on how one defines "real life." Some of my favorite lines from Keats come to mind:

Much have I travelled in the realms of gold
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne . . .
But come to think of it, such people would have no idea of what he was talking about — not to mention they would not understand he was talking about books!

98Tuirgin
aug 6, 2011, 6:21 pm

  • Spouse: check
  • Multiple miniature dependents leaving obstacles to be found on stairs at night: check
  • Daily occupational destination for which the only purpose served is in keeping said miniature dependents off the streets and fed: check
  • Aging automobile, paid for, but requiring ever more trips to the automobile shaman to keep the "mobile" part of the term attached to the "auto" part of the term: check
  • Upside-down mortgage with impending foreclosure accompanied by daily friendly calls from the caring employees of _____________ reminding us that they will hunt us down and crap on our beds if we do not pay them soon: check
  • Dangerously haphazard mound of mail from other entities threatening to hunt us down and crap on our beds: check
  • Average hours of sleep totaling less than 6 at a frequency greater than twice per week: check
  • Real life: NA

99absurdeist
aug 6, 2011, 7:13 pm

C/LOL! That's "Cringe/Laugh Out Loud!"

And that, Tour of Gin, would make a fantastic blog piece!

100Poquette
aug 6, 2011, 9:27 pm

>98 Tuirgin: Some of that sounds familiar — sans the spouse and miniature dependents. Sans dependents of any kind, come to think of it.

101Tuirgin
aug 6, 2011, 10:46 pm

>99 absurdeist: Ha! "Tour of Gin." I like it. And maybe I should do. I tend to drink Gin when my allergies are causing hell. Whisky and beer, my normal libations of choice, tend to aggravate them.

102Tuirgin
aug 6, 2011, 10:49 pm

>97 Poquette: I didn't see the Keats when I posted before—must've been spending too much time polishing my Clöl. I've seen the first two lines you quote numerous times, but don't think I've ever read it in full—which poem of his is it? (I've obviously not spent any time with Keats.)

103Poquette
Bewerkt: aug 7, 2011, 1:33 am

A pedestrian title for such an evocative poem — all told, one of my favorites to the extent I actually composed a song using these words.

On First Looking Into Chapman's Homer

Much have I traveled in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He stared at the Pacific -- and all his men
Looked at each other with a wild surmise --
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

-- John Keats (1818)

Nevermind that Balboa -- not Cortes -- saw the Pacific from the mountain crest at Panama (i.e., Darien).

104Tuirgin
Bewerkt: aug 7, 2011, 2:43 am

Ah. Okay. The title brings back everything. I read that in school, and a few other times from anthologies.

As thanks, and as a bit of sympathetic magic on this sleepless night (too much Darjeeling, I think), I offer this:

Sleeplessness. Homer. Taut sails.
I have counted half the catalogue of ships:
That caravan of cranes, that expansive host,
Which once rose above Hellas.

Like a wedge of cranes towards alien shores–
On kings' heads godlike spray–
Where are you sailing? Without Helen,
What could Troy mean to you, Achaean men?

Both the sea and Homer—all is moved by love.
To whom shall I listen? Now Homer falls silent,
And a black sea, thunderous orator,
Breaks on my pillow with a roar.

—Osip Mandelshtam (1915)
trans. James Greene

105Poquette
aug 7, 2011, 9:28 am

Ah, yes, sleeplessness. I went to bed early and am paying the price by waking up too early. I could not go back to sleep so finally decided to see what was going on at LT, and lo and behold!

This poem is also terribly evocative, like the Keats. Thanks much! I'll have to go and review that catalogue of ships . . .

106dchaikin
aug 14, 2011, 1:09 am

Just finished book IV. Here is more from The Faerie Queene : Educating the Reader by Russell J. Meyer:

It seems clear that Spenser found his original plan—a single hero for each book—to be unsatisfactory for this book dealing with the first three public or community virtues. Friendship, unlike holiness, temperance, and chastity, cannot be achieved alone. In fact, the very movement of the entire Faerie Queene has been to this point (and will continue to be in Books V and VI) from the internal toward increasingly external virtues. Holiness, the virtue of Book I, is an entirely internal virtue. ...

Temperance moves internal virtues toward the world outside the self. It requires an internalization of values, but it is manifested in how one adapts that internalization to an attitude toward the external world. ... Chastity turns still more outward, for it is concerned primarily (although not exclusively) with what me might call attitudinal sexuality ...

Friendship, finally, requires a broader social view. One may be holy, temperate, chaste entirely on one's own, but to be one's own best friend is to miss entirely the point about friendship and degenerate into narcissism. ...

And, as we shall see, the externalization increases from friendship, the relationship of the individual to other specified individuals, through justice, the relationship of the individual to the codified rules of behavior in society, to courtesy, the relationship of the individual to the inherent, uncodified, unstated expectations of social behavior. We move, that is, from the individual's relationship with God (Holiness), to the self (Temperance), to a significant and specified other (Chastity, particularly married chastity), to a broader range of others (Friendship), to the structures of society (Justice, particularly law and equity), and finally, to the very basis of human society (Courtesy). Further more, as Roche has pointed out, the first six books of The Faerie Queene are like a diptych: chastity is a private virtue of which friendship is the public counterpart; temperance (private) corresponds to justice (public); and holiness (private) corresponds to courtesy (public). The relationship among virtues in the six books, in other words, is more than just a progression; it is also a unifying device as well


107dchaikin
aug 14, 2011, 1:14 am

And, on another note, our le Salon has group read for History: A Novel by Elsa Morante scheduled to start on Sept 5 (why the 5th?) For me that means 22 days to read the last 26 Cantos... I'll have to break from my one-a-day plan...

108baswood
aug 14, 2011, 7:37 am

Go Dan go........

Thanks for posting the extracts from Meyer: very interesting.

109absurdeist
aug 15, 2011, 1:06 am

Why not the 5th, Dan? You got a problem with the 5th? A scheduling conflict? Would you prefer the 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th, instead? The 10th perhaps? I'd actually prefer the 12th. Definitely not the 11th; not a good day, the 11th, here in the States. Although, of course, I have no intention of reading History: A Novel on this date, the 12th, either; nor Mann in November, for that matter (any intention of reading him, that is) or reading either that whack misanthrope jealous of his sibling, Paul, in Dec.; nevertheless, I believe the 12th to be a superior date to begin History: A Novel, don't you?

110dchaikin
aug 15, 2011, 6:46 am

#109 - Whose in charge of this place anyway, and when is he going to deal with these crazy people? sheesh!

111dchaikin
Bewerkt: aug 19, 2011, 3:38 pm

my post #110 was supposed to be silly...hope silence doesn't mean offense...certainly none was intended.

#108 - Barry, please accept a delayed thanks. A lot of that seems obvious in hindsight, but I would never have caught it.

Finished Book V today, my least favorite. It's very heavy of political referencing, more so then the previous books. And I felt it paid for this in quality, at least in places (specifically cantos x-xii). Also, one of the main themes is to justify English subjugation of Ireland and of the Irish rebellion (which, in real life, eventually ruined Spenser), which is a pretty pathetic theme in a morality tale...at least to current world views.

112Poquette
aug 19, 2011, 6:46 pm

Apparently he got mad and left the premises. But I doubt it was because of you, Dan.

113dchaikin
Bewerkt: aug 26, 2011, 3:07 pm

Suzanne, I didn't get that when you first posted it. Now, well, I'm probably more confused.

I've read the Mutabilitie Cantos and closed my Penguin edition. I enjoyed book six, especially Cantos IX-XII. I'm very intrigued by the several occurrences of the wild savages and the pastoral thoughts. The Meyer book was no help. It summarized Book VI, but had very little analysis.

The Mutabilitie Cantos are intriuguing and different. It seems no one knows where they actually came from or when they were written. I'm now planning to read an edition of them edited by Sheldon P. Zitner. The book is 160 pages, of which the cantos take about 40 pages. The rest is an introduction, notes and extracts of other works, including parts of books III and IV of Boethius' Consolation of philosophy (no touchstone on the book, here's a link: http://www.librarything.com/work/11676103/details/76697065 )

Edited to fix editor's name and to fix the link.

114baswood
aug 26, 2011, 10:05 am

Dan, the first to finish and still you go on. let us know what you think of the Sheldon P. Zither book.

115dchaikin
aug 26, 2011, 11:59 am

Damn autocorrect...i meant Zitner, not Zither. I fixed my post above.

116Poquette
aug 26, 2011, 1:32 pm

>113 dchaikin: Dan, you can just ignore what I said. Explanation would not fit on a fortune cookie.

117dchaikin
aug 26, 2011, 3:09 pm

Just FYI - I fixed the link in post #112. I think I have the only copy of Zitner's book on LT, so I separated it out from the wrong work into a work of it's own.

118dchaikin
aug 28, 2011, 10:10 pm

Elsewhere I've mentioned that Spenser intentionally wrote the Faerie Queene in an archaic style (pastiche). This is from Zitner on the archaisms in The Mutabilitie Cantos, and in the Faerie Queene in general:

If we cannot go quite as far as Percy Long in thinking Spenser's archaism largely an appearance , a manner of spelling only, we can observe that, apart from unique rhymes, Spenser's verbs are as regular as Shakespeare's, that the total number of archaisms is quite small, and that, in short, his vocabulary is that of his contemporaries. The archaism of the Cantos* affects vocabulary, spelling, inflection, and syntax in order of decreasing importance. Inevitably Spenser's diction must seem more archaic to our century than to his, and it is not always possible to distinguish among deliberate archaisms, obsolescent words whose frequency in Spenser imparted in the early 1600s only the suggestion of a patina, and words which only subsequently acquired their archaic flavour. Though 'eke' as 'also' is used four times in the Cantos and only three in all Shakespeare, it was current in 1580. 'Sith', referring to time, was a deliberate archaism. Yet, in Shakespeare one finds twenty examples of it in reference to cause. 'Eft' and 'eftsoons' (two and four appearances respectively in the Cantos, and the latter only once in Shakespeare), were not archaic, yet their frequency in Spenser must have seemed old-fashioned at least....

Among the deliberate archaisms of the Cantos are 'behight', 'bowre', 'breem', 'doom' (as 'judgement'), 'emprise' (a favorite of Chaucer), 'hight', 'inly', 'nathlesse', 'nathemore', 'whilere', 'whilom', 'yfere' (which would have been recognized as a common rhyming-tag of medieval verse), and 'yode' (an instance of archaic inflection)....in all there are probably fewer than eighteen words in the Cantos—apart from inflected forms—that can be called deliberate archaisms.


*here, the Cantos means The Mutabilitie Cantos.

119baswood
aug 29, 2011, 5:02 am

Interesting Dan. I am approaching the end of Book II and from now on I will take note of words that I recognise from my reading of Chaucer. Your list of deliberate archaisms is very interesting.

120dchaikin
aug 30, 2011, 9:51 pm

I've finished Zitners' book. Thomas P. Roche, Jr. (Penguin edition editor) says "The sweep of her {the Goddess Mutabilitie's} claim calls into question not only Renaissance cosmology but also the value and dignity of human life within the Christian scheme." The inside cover-flap of Zitner's book claims the Mutabilitie Cantos "are generally agreed to contain some of the finest poetry in The Faerie Queene, and are of central importance in the study of philosophic and religious beliefs in the late sixteenth century.. After reading Zitner, my strongest impression of the smile Spenser must have worn as he completed each stanza. He was having fun, in his own way, with two very touching (and I think sincere) stanzas at the end.

And with that I think it's time I close the Spenser books and start to figure out what to read next. Spenser really needs to be reread..and The Shepherds Calendar needs to be read as it is probably more important that FQ, but there are other books to read too.