Group read: Evelina by Fanny Burney
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1lyzard
Evelina; or, The History Of A Young Lady's Entrance Into The World by Fanny Burney (1778)
"You must learn not only to judge but to act for yourself; if any schemes are started, any engagements made, which your understanding represents to you as improper, exert yourself resolutely in avoiding them; and do not, by a too passive facility, risk the censure of the world, or your own future regret."
---Reverend Arthur Villars
"Unused to the situations in which I find myself, and embarrassed by the slightest difficulties, I seldom discover, till too late, how I ought to act."
---Evelina Anville
2lyzard
Hello, all! Welcome to the group read of Fanny Burney's 1778 epistolary novel, Evelina.
Since this is a true epistolary novel (though Evelina's own copious letters form more of a journal), we may need to discuss how best to approach it as a group.
The usual rules about posting and spoilers will apply---please indicate using bolded text the letter you are referring to (they are numbered, so not difficulties about that), and if necessary make use of spoiler tags.
Though it is a fairly long novel (though BY FAR the shortest of Burney's works), Evelina is not a difficult book. It does, however, take for granted the reader's knowledge of the workings of 18th century society---so if there is anything that anyone finds obscure or confusing, in terms of places, customs or language, please do post it here, no matter how trivial your point may seem. As we have seen many times in the past, these additions make for a much more rewarding and informative experience for everyone.
Otherwise, I will only add my usual plea to everyone, Do not read your edition's introduction before you finish the novel! :)
Since this is a true epistolary novel (though Evelina's own copious letters form more of a journal), we may need to discuss how best to approach it as a group.
The usual rules about posting and spoilers will apply---please indicate using bolded text the letter you are referring to (they are numbered, so not difficulties about that), and if necessary make use of spoiler tags.
Though it is a fairly long novel (though BY FAR the shortest of Burney's works), Evelina is not a difficult book. It does, however, take for granted the reader's knowledge of the workings of 18th century society---so if there is anything that anyone finds obscure or confusing, in terms of places, customs or language, please do post it here, no matter how trivial your point may seem. As we have seen many times in the past, these additions make for a much more rewarding and informative experience for everyone.
Otherwise, I will only add my usual plea to everyone, Do not read your edition's introduction before you finish the novel! :)
3lyzard
Background:
Frances Burney was born in 1752, the third of six children. She was considered a little "backward" as a child (and may have had a form of learning disability), but she undertook self-education via her family's extensive library and by the age of ten she had begun to write for her own amusement. Tragically, however, Burney did not receive the same sort of support for her early writings as, say, Jane Austen did, and in fact was made to feel that she was being "undutiful" and "unladylike" by giving her time to the pursuit. When she was fifteen years old her feelings of guilt came to a head and she burned her juvenilia, including the manuscript of a first attempt at a novel, The History Of Carolyn Evelyn---a novel which, fascinatingly enough, told the back-story to the events that unfold in Evelina: obviously the bonfire did nothing to quell Burney's imagination or her desire to write.
Like Maria Edgeworth after her, Burney had a somewhat peculiar relationship with her talented but domineering father, who both encouraged her writing (eventually) but kept a stern eye on what and how she wrote, stifling her impulses towards "unladylike" humour and satire. In addition to her novels, Burney tried her hand at writing plays (discouraged on the grounds of "improper associations"), though she had little success in that area. Burney's other great literary venture was her diary, which she kept for an astonishing 72 years, and which offers a remarkable account of life and society over the passing decades.
Although as a dutiful daughter Burney had bowed her head to her father's decrees about her writing, in 1793 she defied him and married General Alexandre D'Arblay, who was the undesirable trifecta of French, a Roman Catholic, and (perhaps worst of all) poor. Their only child, Alexander, was born the following year.
Evelina:
Evelina was written in secret and published anonymously in January 1778. So determined was Burney to keep her authorship a secret, she wrote her entire manuscript in altered handwriting (she had previously written out her father's manuscripts and was afraid her handwriting might be recognised). Burney's brother, James, who was in on the secret, posed as the author during the negotiations with the publishers; Burney received only 20 pounds for what would prove to be a landmark work of fiction.
Although Samuel Richardson had achieved a novelistic breakthrough by making women the focus of two of his three novels, and giving them prominence in the third, Burney took this to the next level by effectively authoring the ur-novel for the next 150 years of "women's fiction": Evelina's plot deals with the entry of an inexperienced girl into society, where she must learn to recognise and avoid dangers of all kinds, and negotiate a path between her own desires and beliefs, and the expectations and demands of society.
Evelina is also important for pushing the novel towards a less picaresque, less adventure-heavy, more realistic depiction of life and society.
Furthermore, though he is certainly a lineal descendant of Richardson's model gentleman, Sir Charles Grandison, Burney's Lord Orville is a slightly less perfect, slightly more human figure---and became many a young lady's first serious literary crush.
(Lord Orville also became the focus of both sides of the social debate over novels, the pro-faction arguing for the worth of aspirational figures, the anti-faction contending that such characters made young women dissatisfied with reality.)
Evelina was both a critical and a popular success---with Burney suffering agonies every time it was discussed in her presence, or she saw anyone with a copy. She did not confess her authorship, however, until after her father had reacted favourably (mostly in response to praise from heavyweights such as Samuel Johnson). The novel quickly went through four editions, and eighteen in Burney's lifetime. The second edition, carrying an uncut manuscript but with certain corrections by Burney, is considered the definitive text. (Including the extension of the novel's original sub-title, A Young Lady's Entrance Into the World, to The History Of A Young Lady's Entrance Into The World).
Frances Burney was born in 1752, the third of six children. She was considered a little "backward" as a child (and may have had a form of learning disability), but she undertook self-education via her family's extensive library and by the age of ten she had begun to write for her own amusement. Tragically, however, Burney did not receive the same sort of support for her early writings as, say, Jane Austen did, and in fact was made to feel that she was being "undutiful" and "unladylike" by giving her time to the pursuit. When she was fifteen years old her feelings of guilt came to a head and she burned her juvenilia, including the manuscript of a first attempt at a novel, The History Of Carolyn Evelyn---a novel which, fascinatingly enough, told the back-story to the events that unfold in Evelina: obviously the bonfire did nothing to quell Burney's imagination or her desire to write.
Like Maria Edgeworth after her, Burney had a somewhat peculiar relationship with her talented but domineering father, who both encouraged her writing (eventually) but kept a stern eye on what and how she wrote, stifling her impulses towards "unladylike" humour and satire. In addition to her novels, Burney tried her hand at writing plays (discouraged on the grounds of "improper associations"), though she had little success in that area. Burney's other great literary venture was her diary, which she kept for an astonishing 72 years, and which offers a remarkable account of life and society over the passing decades.
Although as a dutiful daughter Burney had bowed her head to her father's decrees about her writing, in 1793 she defied him and married General Alexandre D'Arblay, who was the undesirable trifecta of French, a Roman Catholic, and (perhaps worst of all) poor. Their only child, Alexander, was born the following year.
Evelina:
Evelina was written in secret and published anonymously in January 1778. So determined was Burney to keep her authorship a secret, she wrote her entire manuscript in altered handwriting (she had previously written out her father's manuscripts and was afraid her handwriting might be recognised). Burney's brother, James, who was in on the secret, posed as the author during the negotiations with the publishers; Burney received only 20 pounds for what would prove to be a landmark work of fiction.
Although Samuel Richardson had achieved a novelistic breakthrough by making women the focus of two of his three novels, and giving them prominence in the third, Burney took this to the next level by effectively authoring the ur-novel for the next 150 years of "women's fiction": Evelina's plot deals with the entry of an inexperienced girl into society, where she must learn to recognise and avoid dangers of all kinds, and negotiate a path between her own desires and beliefs, and the expectations and demands of society.
Evelina is also important for pushing the novel towards a less picaresque, less adventure-heavy, more realistic depiction of life and society.
Furthermore, though he is certainly a lineal descendant of Richardson's model gentleman, Sir Charles Grandison, Burney's Lord Orville is a slightly less perfect, slightly more human figure---and became many a young lady's first serious literary crush.
(Lord Orville also became the focus of both sides of the social debate over novels, the pro-faction arguing for the worth of aspirational figures, the anti-faction contending that such characters made young women dissatisfied with reality.)
Evelina was both a critical and a popular success---with Burney suffering agonies every time it was discussed in her presence, or she saw anyone with a copy. She did not confess her authorship, however, until after her father had reacted favourably (mostly in response to praise from heavyweights such as Samuel Johnson). The novel quickly went through four editions, and eighteen in Burney's lifetime. The second edition, carrying an uncut manuscript but with certain corrections by Burney, is considered the definitive text. (Including the extension of the novel's original sub-title, A Young Lady's Entrance Into the World, to The History Of A Young Lady's Entrance Into The World).
5CDVicarage
I shall be reading this but I have a weekend away first so others will get ahead of me - I'm fine with that as I like spoilers!
6MarthaJeanne
I've downloaded it, so I'm in.
Note to self: Remember to read eBooks as well as paper ones for a while!
Note to self: Remember to read eBooks as well as paper ones for a while!
7susanj67
I'm definitely in! Thanks, Liz, for organising this. I plan a lazy weekend of flaking out in the heat, reading many books, so it's a perfect time to start.
8japaul22
I read this last year and really enjoyed it. I am a huge Jane Austen fan and wrote this is my review. (No spoilers, just general impression)
Many Austen fans will probably recognize Fanny Burney's name as often suggested as a precursor to and influence on Jane Austen's writing. That's the reason I picked up this book and I found tons of obvious influences on Jane Austen in plot, characters, and style. I was really excited to find that I liked the book on it's own merit just as much as for the glimpse into Austen's influences.
I won't be rereading, but I'll be following along on the discussion to fill in gaps that I missed the first time around.
Many Austen fans will probably recognize Fanny Burney's name as often suggested as a precursor to and influence on Jane Austen's writing. That's the reason I picked up this book and I found tons of obvious influences on Jane Austen in plot, characters, and style. I was really excited to find that I liked the book on it's own merit just as much as for the glimpse into Austen's influences.
I won't be rereading, but I'll be following along on the discussion to fill in gaps that I missed the first time around.
9streamsong
I'm joining in, too, although like >5 CDVicarage:, I will be gone for a few days so may be starting late.
10lyzard
Welcome, Kerry, MarthaJeanne, Susan, Jennifer and Janet - wonderful to have you all here! :)
There's no hurry, so please feel free to start in your own time.
You're quite right, Jennifer - Burney's influence on Austen is another reason why she is such an important author, but she deserves to be recognised in her own right, too.
There's no hurry, so please feel free to start in your own time.
You're quite right, Jennifer - Burney's influence on Austen is another reason why she is such an important author, but she deserves to be recognised in her own right, too.
11lauralkeet
I'm intrigued by the book especially with the Austen connection, but I'm just not in the mood for this sort of thing at the moment. I'll lurk here, and may read the book at a later date.
14lyzard
>11 lauralkeet:, >12 LizzieD:
Aw, you guys - don't drop by just to tell me you're not joining in! {*sniff, sniff*}
(Psst...Cecilia in November, mark your diaries!)
>13 ronincats:
Hi, Roni - glad to see you here!
Aw, you guys - don't drop by just to tell me you're not joining in! {*sniff, sniff*}
(Psst...Cecilia in November, mark your diaries!)
>13 ronincats:
Hi, Roni - glad to see you here!
15souloftherose
I'm in too :-) I started reading this morning and have read the first 9 letters.
16lyzard
Welcome, Heather! Hey, don't dash ahead too far! :)
Well, we still have a couple to check in, but we might make a start. With letters of varying lengths its difficult to do a certain number as a way of progressing; however, the first few are quite short and lay the foundation for the story, so we might take a look at those.
Most of this consists of Evelina's own letters home, which are very long and detailed (she's in the habit of telling her guardian everything, the infallible sign of a "good girl" at this time.
But it is very important to pay special attention to those letters not to or by Evelina, which both provide information to the reader that Evelina does not have, and give a different slant to what she, and we, understand.
For example, when speaking of Madame Duval, Evelina's grandmother, to Lady Howard, Mr Villars is forthright in his criticism of her. However, when speaking to Evelina of her, he does not criticise her so openly, instead taking the usual "authority" line that no matter what her grandmother's failings, Evelina herself must be dutiful, respectful and attentive towards her.
Well, we still have a couple to check in, but we might make a start. With letters of varying lengths its difficult to do a certain number as a way of progressing; however, the first few are quite short and lay the foundation for the story, so we might take a look at those.
Most of this consists of Evelina's own letters home, which are very long and detailed (she's in the habit of telling her guardian everything, the infallible sign of a "good girl" at this time.
But it is very important to pay special attention to those letters not to or by Evelina, which both provide information to the reader that Evelina does not have, and give a different slant to what she, and we, understand.
For example, when speaking of Madame Duval, Evelina's grandmother, to Lady Howard, Mr Villars is forthright in his criticism of her. However, when speaking to Evelina of her, he does not criticise her so openly, instead taking the usual "authority" line that no matter what her grandmother's failings, Evelina herself must be dutiful, respectful and attentive towards her.
17lyzard
Letter I: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which Evelina's long-absent grandmother suddenly reappears, and we hear hints of a tragic back-story.
Letter II: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which we learn of the foolish marriage of Evelina's grandfather, and the even more foolish marriage of her mother.
Letter III: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which Evelina is invited to stay with friends, and perhaps visit London.
Letter IV: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which Mr Villars agrees to Howard Grove, but baulks at London
Letter V: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which we discover that Mr Villars gets a bit carried away on the subject of his ward...
Letter VI: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which we learn that Evelina is "a little angel"
Letter VII: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which the subject of London is broached again...
In which Evelina's long-absent grandmother suddenly reappears, and we hear hints of a tragic back-story.
Letter II: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which we learn of the foolish marriage of Evelina's grandfather, and the even more foolish marriage of her mother.
Letter III: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which Evelina is invited to stay with friends, and perhaps visit London.
Letter IV: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which Mr Villars agrees to Howard Grove, but baulks at London
Letter V: Mr Villars to Lady Howard
In which we discover that Mr Villars gets a bit carried away on the subject of his ward...
Letter VI: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which we learn that Evelina is "a little angel"
Letter VII: Lady Howard to Mr Villars
In which the subject of London is broached again...
18lyzard
We are given a LOT of information in this flurry of letters---Evelina's youth and beauty, her country-bred innocence, her possibly inadequate education, her good principles; most importantly, her anomalous position in the world as the unacknowledged daughter and heiress of a wealthy baronet; and the fact that she is using a false name for want of a right to any other.
We also get a sense of Mr Villars' deep affection for his ward, his sense of responsibility towards her, and his protectiveness (which might even strike us as a bit over the top at this stage).
You can see even at this early stage the classic set up for the female version of the Bildungsroman, with a young girl making her way into society for the first time, and trying to put her principles into practice. In addition, Evelina is a girl with a great deal of baggage, including her consciousness of her own uncertain position in the world.
We also get a sense of Mr Villars' deep affection for his ward, his sense of responsibility towards her, and his protectiveness (which might even strike us as a bit over the top at this stage).
You can see even at this early stage the classic set up for the female version of the Bildungsroman, with a young girl making her way into society for the first time, and trying to put her principles into practice. In addition, Evelina is a girl with a great deal of baggage, including her consciousness of her own uncertain position in the world.
19rainpebble
>18 lyzard:
lyzard, do we have a time frame for reading Evelina? So much over a certain period of time or some such? I probably overlooked it somewhere.
I have downloaded the Kindle version and will begin it later today. Looks to be a quiet 4th here at home.
lyzard, do we have a time frame for reading Evelina? So much over a certain period of time or some such? I probably overlooked it somewhere.
I have downloaded the Kindle version and will begin it later today. Looks to be a quiet 4th here at home.
20lyzard
Hi, Belva - welcome!
No, we don't have a hard and fast schedule; I prefer to let people go at their own pace, so the reading doesn't become like homework. We can reasonably expect to wrap it up within July, but no-one is compelled.
I will probably sum up and comment on a few letters per day (maybe one a day when I get to Evelina's more lengthy ones) as a kind of pace-setter. Otherwise, we just try to be careful about spoilers for anyone who may have slipped a bit behind.
No, we don't have a hard and fast schedule; I prefer to let people go at their own pace, so the reading doesn't become like homework. We can reasonably expect to wrap it up within July, but no-one is compelled.
I will probably sum up and comment on a few letters per day (maybe one a day when I get to Evelina's more lengthy ones) as a kind of pace-setter. Otherwise, we just try to be careful about spoilers for anyone who may have slipped a bit behind.
21lyzard
Letter VIII: Evelina to Mr Villars
In which Evelina makes a petition...
I think Burney does quite a good job in giving Evelina a distinct and credible voice. Immediately here we feel the gap between her theory and her practice, the tension between what she wants (naturally enough) and what she thinks she "ought" to want; and the deflection of responsibility onto her friends---These dear ladies are so pressing...
So already we see that in spite of what we already know must have been a strict moral upbringing, Evelina is (as Burney says in her preface) "No faultless Monster that the world ne'er saw", but just a girl, one capable of wanting things that perhaps aren't good for her, and wheedling for them:
A petition implies a want and have you left me one? No, indeed... I made a resolution, when I began, that I would not be urgent; but my pen-or rather my thoughts, will not suffer me to keep it-for I acknowledge, I must acknowledge, I cannot help wishing for your permission... You will not, I am sure, send a refusal without reasons unanswerable, and therefore I shall cheerfully acquiesce. Yet I hope---I hope you will be able to permit me to go! I am, with the utmost affection, gratitude, and duty, your EVELINA...
In which Evelina makes a petition...
I think Burney does quite a good job in giving Evelina a distinct and credible voice. Immediately here we feel the gap between her theory and her practice, the tension between what she wants (naturally enough) and what she thinks she "ought" to want; and the deflection of responsibility onto her friends---These dear ladies are so pressing...
So already we see that in spite of what we already know must have been a strict moral upbringing, Evelina is (as Burney says in her preface) "No faultless Monster that the world ne'er saw", but just a girl, one capable of wanting things that perhaps aren't good for her, and wheedling for them:
A petition implies a want and have you left me one? No, indeed... I made a resolution, when I began, that I would not be urgent; but my pen-or rather my thoughts, will not suffer me to keep it-for I acknowledge, I must acknowledge, I cannot help wishing for your permission... You will not, I am sure, send a refusal without reasons unanswerable, and therefore I shall cheerfully acquiesce. Yet I hope---I hope you will be able to permit me to go! I am, with the utmost affection, gratitude, and duty, your EVELINA...
22luvamystery65
Marking my spot here. ;-)
25souloftherose
I'm about 50 pages in - up to the end of letter XIV (going to slow down a bit so I don't get too far ahead). It feels quite strange reading a book where I understand some of the 18th century's social rules better than the protagonist!
>21 lyzard: That's an interesting point about Evelina's voice Liz - I'm still trying to decide what I think of her.
>21 lyzard: That's an interesting point about Evelina's voice Liz - I'm still trying to decide what I think of her.
26lyzard
Quite a few times in our 18th and 19th century reads I've had to explain about "the rules" of dancing and how girls weren't allowed to refuse one partner and then dance with someone else---Letter XI of Evelina gives us literature's most explicit illustration of the situation and its consequences.
Some readers get irritated with Evelina's bashfulness and indecisiveness, but she is very young and ignorant, and we should probably cut her some slack. :)
Letter XI is important for another reason, of course---
Enter Lord Orville:
And very soon after, another gentleman, who seemed about six-and-twenty years old, gaily but not foppishly dressed, and indeed extremely handsome, with an air of mixed politeness and gallantry, desired to know if I was engaged, or would honour him with my hand. So he was pleased to say, though I am sure I know not what honour he could receive from me...
Some readers get irritated with Evelina's bashfulness and indecisiveness, but she is very young and ignorant, and we should probably cut her some slack. :)
Letter XI is important for another reason, of course---
Enter Lord Orville:
And very soon after, another gentleman, who seemed about six-and-twenty years old, gaily but not foppishly dressed, and indeed extremely handsome, with an air of mixed politeness and gallantry, desired to know if I was engaged, or would honour him with my hand. So he was pleased to say, though I am sure I know not what honour he could receive from me...
27lyzard
...while we need to stop at Letter XIII and note a very important literary detail:
That this is where Jane Austen got the name "Willoughby".
Austen references Burney a number of times in her novels - citing both Cecilia and Camilla in her famous "Oh, it's only a novel!" speech in Northanger Abbey, for example, as well as having Anne Eliot compare herself to "Miss Larolles, the inimitable Miss Larolles" in Persuasion; and there isn't any question that the use of the name Willoughby in Sense And Sensibility was another nod at Burney.
That this is where Jane Austen got the name "Willoughby".
Austen references Burney a number of times in her novels - citing both Cecilia and Camilla in her famous "Oh, it's only a novel!" speech in Northanger Abbey, for example, as well as having Anne Eliot compare herself to "Miss Larolles, the inimitable Miss Larolles" in Persuasion; and there isn't any question that the use of the name Willoughby in Sense And Sensibility was another nod at Burney.
28Smiler69
I definitely intend to join in. I have it on audio, which I'm not quite certain is the best medium for this book, but I guess I'll find out when I jump in. Wanted to fit in a couple of shorter works before, so I'll probably start sometime soon, perhaps next week? But then I'm also thinking I could maybe start now and just listen to a few letters each day and pace myself slowly to follow along here. Hmmm... not sure what to do now!
29lyzard
Hi, Ilana! I'm no expert on audiobooks but I could imagine this working on the "a few a day" scheme, or even one a day when you get to Evelina's longer letters. Anyway, audiobooks being what they are, perhaps you should give a try and see how this works for you in that format?
30luvamystery65
>28 Smiler69: & >29 lyzard: I am doing the audio a few letters a day and it works well. At least for me it does. There are several narrators and since it is epistolary it works well to pick up and put down.
32luvamystery65
>31 lyzard: Orson Scott Card, Emily Rankin, Stefan Rudnicki and Gabrielle de Cuir
33Smiler69
>29 lyzard: >30 luvamystery65: >32 luvamystery65: I have the same audio version as Roberta does, and glad to see you confirm it works well in short bits. I'll pick it up today or tomorrow and listen to a few letters at a time also.
34Smiler69
Well, I started listening to it on Thursday, thinking as I had said that I'd only listen to a few letters here and there, but finally was quite taken with it and so I'm rushing along with the story. I thought it would bother me that the audiobooks is read by a cast of American authors and that the accents would ring false given this is an English (i.e. British) story, but the narrators are quite good and make me forget the accents are "wrong", if you know what I mean. :-)
Very entertaining indeed.
eta: I think I'm somewhere around letter 23 at this point.
Very entertaining indeed.
eta: I think I'm somewhere around letter 23 at this point.
35lyzard
Thanks for checking in, Ilana - ooh, American narrators, I hadn't thought of that. That strikes me as the kind of thing I'd be unable to get past.
I'm glad you're enjoying it - any comments or questions about anything? (Please!!?)
I'm glad you're enjoying it - any comments or questions about anything? (Please!!?)
36luvamystery65
>34 Smiler69: and >35 lyzard: The American narration is very strange and normally I would not want to listen to this but they are excellent narrators. More important, the story pulls you in immediately and as along as the voice is lovely then you forgive the accent. Please note that this is huge because I do believe that Ilana feels as strongly about accents as I do in her audios. What I am trying to say is the story is THAT GOOD.
I'll come back soon with some questions. I have a few but since I mainly listen while driving, I cannot write them down. I'll peek into my Kindle version and jot some notes down.
I finished Volume I this morning. I've been driving my senior relatives everywhere this past week and weekend. Lots of Evelina time.
I'll come back soon with some questions. I have a few but since I mainly listen while driving, I cannot write them down. I'll peek into my Kindle version and jot some notes down.
I finished Volume I this morning. I've been driving my senior relatives everywhere this past week and weekend. Lots of Evelina time.
37souloftherose
I took a break from Evelina over the last week but happily back reading now and just finished letter 21.
Liz, I can't find the exact place you said this but I think you said somewhere that Evelina was the first fun 18th century novel that was approved reading for young ladies and I am certainly appreciating the fun element.
I did have a couple of questions around the long Letter XXI
1. What obligations does Evelina have to her relations, Madame Duval and her cousins the Branghtons? Do her obligations to her grandmother and cousins override her obligations to the Mirvans and Mr Villars?
2. How improper was it for Sir Clement to give Evelina a ride home from the opera in his carriage alone. It doesn't seem quite the thing in the book but no one seems shocked by it.
Liz, I can't find the exact place you said this but I think you said somewhere that Evelina was the first fun 18th century novel that was approved reading for young ladies and I am certainly appreciating the fun element.
I did have a couple of questions around the long Letter XXI
1. What obligations does Evelina have to her relations, Madame Duval and her cousins the Branghtons? Do her obligations to her grandmother and cousins override her obligations to the Mirvans and Mr Villars?
2. How improper was it for Sir Clement to give Evelina a ride home from the opera in his carriage alone. It doesn't seem quite the thing in the book but no one seems shocked by it.
38lyzard
>36 luvamystery65:
That's really interesting, Roberta - and it's great to hear that you're enjoying the story!
>37 souloftherose:
Yes, as far as any novel-reading was approved for young ladies... :)
1. Madame Duval is Evelina's only direct blood-relative and that gives her full authority, if she chooses to exert it. Mr Villars has no legal claim to Evelina in spite of everything, because women could not legally appoint guardians, and therefore Evelina's mother "committing her to his care" is not a formal arrangement. Mr Villars has authority only in a "possession is nine-tenths of the law" sort of way, as do the Mirvans.
So Madame Duval has both legal and parental authority, which means Evelina's duty is to obey her---the difficulty comes when she orders Evelina to do things that are wrong and/or distasteful. The Branghtons have no claim on her, except as far as Madame Duval insists---but their very pushiness is hard for Evelina to resist.
2. I think it's a case of "all's well that ends well"...or "least said, soonest mended", to resort to yet another cliché. :)
Certainly Evelina should not have done that, and if she had been left with any choice Lord Orville's offer to vacate his carriage for her and take a chair would have been the one to accept. However, obviously Sir Clement wasn't going to back off, and for Evelina to insist on Lord Orville's protection over his (even if she'd had the courage to do it) would have been as improper as going with Sir Clement in the first place.
As soon as they were gone, Mrs Mirvan, though with great softness, blamed me for having quitted Madame Duval...
So she's had a scolding, but probably her own distress and sense of doing wrong showed Mrs Mirvan she didn't need to say too much.
That's really interesting, Roberta - and it's great to hear that you're enjoying the story!
>37 souloftherose:
Yes, as far as any novel-reading was approved for young ladies... :)
1. Madame Duval is Evelina's only direct blood-relative and that gives her full authority, if she chooses to exert it. Mr Villars has no legal claim to Evelina in spite of everything, because women could not legally appoint guardians, and therefore Evelina's mother "committing her to his care" is not a formal arrangement. Mr Villars has authority only in a "possession is nine-tenths of the law" sort of way, as do the Mirvans.
So Madame Duval has both legal and parental authority, which means Evelina's duty is to obey her---the difficulty comes when she orders Evelina to do things that are wrong and/or distasteful. The Branghtons have no claim on her, except as far as Madame Duval insists---but their very pushiness is hard for Evelina to resist.
2. I think it's a case of "all's well that ends well"...or "least said, soonest mended", to resort to yet another cliché. :)
Certainly Evelina should not have done that, and if she had been left with any choice Lord Orville's offer to vacate his carriage for her and take a chair would have been the one to accept. However, obviously Sir Clement wasn't going to back off, and for Evelina to insist on Lord Orville's protection over his (even if she'd had the courage to do it) would have been as improper as going with Sir Clement in the first place.
As soon as they were gone, Mrs Mirvan, though with great softness, blamed me for having quitted Madame Duval...
So she's had a scolding, but probably her own distress and sense of doing wrong showed Mrs Mirvan she didn't need to say too much.
39lyzard
What always strikes me on re-reading Evelina was how rough and violent a time it was, even at the upper levels of society, and how genuinely dangerous for girls when even a "gentleman" like Sir Clement takes the slightest deviation as a come-on.
The other thing that's striking is how much more mixing of the classes there was at the time: a few decades later and Evelina's connection with Madame Duval and the Branghtons would have put her beyond the pale, socially.
The other thing that's striking is how much more mixing of the classes there was at the time: a few decades later and Evelina's connection with Madame Duval and the Branghtons would have put her beyond the pale, socially.
40luvamystery65
How on earth did Mrs. Mirvan end up with the Captain? I thought officers in the Navy were usually 2nd and 3rd sons of well to do families due to having to buy your commission? Did I miss something? As a character he is very entertaining but, as Evelina says, he is gross. He doesn't seem like her type or that Lady Howard would want him for a son-in-law.
41lyzard
The Royal Navy was given a complete overhaul in the late 18th century after things went so badly during the American Revolutionary War / War of Independence, when Britain lost its naval supremacy. So Captain Mirvan is an example of what the navy was before it underwent (excuse the expression) "gentrification". Men went into the navy as mere boys and so were lacking in formal education, even if their birth was good; this is likely the case with the Captain, who may have been an appropriate match in terms of his family, but inferior in education and social skills (to say the least). The longer his career went, the more those deficiencies (in conjunction with the authority granted by his position) would have been exacerbated.
Commissions were not bought in the navy as they were in the army; promotion there was due to seniority and/or merit (though having connections didn't hurt).
It's fascinating to compare what is implied about the navy here with, say, Jane Austen's presentation of it in Persuasion, published forty years later (where we might recall Sir Walter Elliot complaining of the navy as, "...being the means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction, and raising men to honours which their fathers and grandfathers never dreamt of...").
Commissions were not bought in the navy as they were in the army; promotion there was due to seniority and/or merit (though having connections didn't hurt).
It's fascinating to compare what is implied about the navy here with, say, Jane Austen's presentation of it in Persuasion, published forty years later (where we might recall Sir Walter Elliot complaining of the navy as, "...being the means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction, and raising men to honours which their fathers and grandfathers never dreamt of...").
42luvamystery65
>41 lyzard: Thank you. I also missed how the Branghtons were related to Madame Duval and Evelina. Were they kin to Mr. Evelyn or Madame Duval? If Madame Duval, how were they in England?
Poor Evelina. She gets into one social scrape after another. If she was ugly they would never have let her get away with it.
Poor Evelina. She gets into one social scrape after another. If she was ugly they would never have let her get away with it.
43lyzard
Madame Duval is actually English, though she has spent much of her life in France, and her second husband was French:
Letter II
His unhappy marriage, immediately upon his return to England, with Madame Duval, then a waiting-girl at a tavern, contrary to the advice and entreaties of all his friends, among whom I was myself the most urgent, induced him to abandon his native land, and fix his abode in France.
Mr Branghton is Madame Duval's nephew (Letter XVII), which makes him the cousin of Evelina's mother and Evelina's own second cousin.
If she was ugly they would never have let her get away with it.
That's the female experience in a nutshell, isn't it?? :)
Letter II
His unhappy marriage, immediately upon his return to England, with Madame Duval, then a waiting-girl at a tavern, contrary to the advice and entreaties of all his friends, among whom I was myself the most urgent, induced him to abandon his native land, and fix his abode in France.
Mr Branghton is Madame Duval's nephew (Letter XVII), which makes him the cousin of Evelina's mother and Evelina's own second cousin.
If she was ugly they would never have let her get away with it.
That's the female experience in a nutshell, isn't it?? :)
44luvamystery65
>43 lyzard: I see. Yes. Reread that part in Letter II. Thank you. She speaks with a French accent in my audio which added to my confusion. ;-)
That's the female experience in a nutshell, isn't it?? :)
Indeed.
That's the female experience in a nutshell, isn't it?? :)
Indeed.
45lyzard
Presumably Madame Duval has spoken only French for the past twenty years or so and has forgotten much of her English; besides, if she was only a tavern-maid her education in English would have been lacking to start with.
46souloftherose
>39 lyzard: 'What always strikes me on re-reading Evelina was how rough and violent a time it was, even at the upper levels of society'
I also thought this and then I read Letter II of Volume II (does the numbering of the letters restart in each volume in everyone's edition) and thought this even more! I am really quite shocked how badly Captain Mirvan and Sir Clement are behaving to Madame Duval (who is awful but I don't think she deserved what happened to her in this letter) and also quite shocked that neither Mrs Mirvan nor Lady Howard can tell the captain off. Taking a step back I suppose this was something women just couldn't do at the time but goodness!
I also thought this and then I read Letter II of Volume II (does the numbering of the letters restart in each volume in everyone's edition) and thought this even more! I am really quite shocked how badly Captain Mirvan and Sir Clement are behaving to Madame Duval (who is awful but I don't think she deserved what happened to her in this letter) and also quite shocked that neither Mrs Mirvan nor Lady Howard can tell the captain off. Taking a step back I suppose this was something women just couldn't do at the time but goodness!
47souloftherose
Another couple of comments:
1. Letter XVI of Volume II I really enjoyed watching Madame Duval giving Sir Clement a good set-down.
2. Throughout Volume II there are a lot of references to the Evelina, the Branghtons and/or their lodger sitting in the Branghtons' shop which I was suprised at? Why did they do this when they had private rooms above the shop? Wouldn't people keep coming into the shop and disturbing them?
1. Letter XVI of Volume II I really enjoyed watching Madame Duval giving Sir Clement a good set-down.
2. Throughout Volume II there are a lot of references to the Evelina, the Branghtons and/or their lodger sitting in the Branghtons' shop which I was suprised at? Why did they do this when they had private rooms above the shop? Wouldn't people keep coming into the shop and disturbing them?
48lyzard
I agree with you completely but what we need to keep in mind is that a lot of contemporary readers thought that the Captain Mirvan / Madame Duval scenes were the best part of the book, and agreed with the Captain's attitude to anything French.
It was a tacit rule that no wife criticised her husband in public, but I think here it is as much a case of recognising that opposition of any kind would simply spur the Captain on - you see how Mrs Mirvan tries to distract him instead. Likewise, when people choose not to tell Madame Duval the truth at various points, it's a (largely futile) effort to keep the peace.
(I think the original three volumes restarted the number lettering but it became common to publish the book as a single volume and those editions numbered consecutively, I think; so it depends which version you have.)
1. Yes, Sir Clement could do with more of that, from whatever source.
Though it is interesting that Madame Duval actually gets through Sir Clement's armour here because she doesn't play by the rules he's used to---even, effectively, calling him a liar to his face. As embarrassed as Evelina is by this, it is very evident that nothing short of this kind of outright rudeness would have touched him.
2. For the Branghtons it's probably a matter of see and be seen. For the others, particularly the lodger, it is very likely that they would have no lights or a fire in their room and that the shop is the only place where these are available.
It was a tacit rule that no wife criticised her husband in public, but I think here it is as much a case of recognising that opposition of any kind would simply spur the Captain on - you see how Mrs Mirvan tries to distract him instead. Likewise, when people choose not to tell Madame Duval the truth at various points, it's a (largely futile) effort to keep the peace.
(I think the original three volumes restarted the number lettering but it became common to publish the book as a single volume and those editions numbered consecutively, I think; so it depends which version you have.)
1. Yes, Sir Clement could do with more of that, from whatever source.
Though it is interesting that Madame Duval actually gets through Sir Clement's armour here because she doesn't play by the rules he's used to---even, effectively, calling him a liar to his face. As embarrassed as Evelina is by this, it is very evident that nothing short of this kind of outright rudeness would have touched him.
2. For the Branghtons it's probably a matter of see and be seen. For the others, particularly the lodger, it is very likely that they would have no lights or a fire in their room and that the shop is the only place where these are available.
49Smiler69
>36 luvamystery65: I agree with what you've said about the book in general and the audiobook in particular, Roberta. I do feel extremely strongly about accents, and will often opt out of audio versions if the accents don't correspond to the origin of the work itself, but as you say, the story is that good, so I was drawn in despite the discrepancy. That being said, I think I'll get my hands on a printed version for future reread(s), both for the sake of the accents and also mostly to be able to have visual cues for the letters, to be able to go back and forth to read over bits or clarify some points I may have missed.
Speaking of which...
I'm well into Volume 3, though can't recall what letter I'm at by now (hard to keep track on the audio version). Though many things have been resolved by now, I wish I could go back to read the letter of Mr Villars in which he tells Evelina to stay away from Lord Orville, as I could't at all remember the reasons for her avoiding him following that letter.
Speaking of which...
I'm well into Volume 3, though can't recall what letter I'm at by now (hard to keep track on the audio version). Though many things have been resolved by now, I wish I could go back to read the letter of Mr Villars in which he tells Evelina to stay away from Lord Orville, as I could't at all remember the reasons for her avoiding him following that letter.
50lyzard
That would be Letter LXVII / Volume III Letter VI.
The point being, briefly, thatEvelina's letters have revealed to Mr Villars that she is in love with Lord Orville, though she has not recognised this herself. Mr Villars does not believe that someone in Lord Orville's situation will marry someone in Evelina's, and that she will end up getting her heart broken.
Yes, this is another reason I haven't embraced audiobooks; I find flicking back and forth hard enough with ebooks. (Exacerbated by the fact that the more I get into a book, the less I remember to make bookmarks, and the more annoyed with myself I am afterwards!)
The point being, briefly, that
Yes, this is another reason I haven't embraced audiobooks; I find flicking back and forth hard enough with ebooks. (Exacerbated by the fact that the more I get into a book, the less I remember to make bookmarks, and the more annoyed with myself I am afterwards!)
51streamsong
>49 Smiler69: Evelina is in full text on Project Gutenberg if you want to reread (not sure that's the right phrase - revisit maybe?) that section. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/6053 Another method I use is Amazon's 'look inside this book' feature which has a search function. The downside of that one is that you need to think of a somewhat unique word to use for your search.
I'm reading the Oxford Classics edition and, while the notes at the end of the book are very helpful, flipping back and forth with them is very distracting. At work, I sometimes read a bit on the PG site when I have a break.
I'm reading the Oxford Classics edition and, while the notes at the end of the book are very helpful, flipping back and forth with them is very distracting. At work, I sometimes read a bit on the PG site when I have a break.
52Smiler69
>51 streamsong: Thank you, I should have thought about that. Also, I'd completely forgotten I own a free Kindle version somewhere. However I let myself get too far ahead to be able to trace back the letter this time.
That being said, I finished the book yesterday. I truly enjoyed this story, and have already determined I will definitely reread it in future, and in print form next time, for the reasons I mentioned in >49 Smiler69:.
The audio format doesn't lend itself well to taking notes either, so my apologies Liz for not being a more active member of this group read!
That being said, I finished the book yesterday. I truly enjoyed this story, and have already determined I will definitely reread it in future, and in print form next time, for the reasons I mentioned in >49 Smiler69:.
The audio format doesn't lend itself well to taking notes either, so my apologies Liz for not being a more active member of this group read!
53souloftherose
I'm at the end of Volume II and taking a brief pause. Will probably start Volume III at the weekend. I am enjoying this but also finding reading about Evelina's social embarrassment quite painful sometimes - it was like reading a much longer version of the Netherfield ball in Pride and Prejudice. Poor Evelina.
Also I have a theory about the letter at the end of Vol II (not mentioning names to try and avoid spoilers) and I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm right!
Also I have a theory about the letter at the end of Vol II (not mentioning names to try and avoid spoilers) and I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm right!
54lyzard
>51 streamsong:
Hey, you can always post any questions here instead of flipping! :)
There is also Burney Texts, which reproduces the novels letter by letter. Impossible to search, of course, but a neat way to read online.
>52 Smiler69:
Whoo! Well done! I'm very glad you enjoyed it.
>53 souloftherose:
In a way, the embarrassment is the point, I think - this really was the first book written by a girl, for girls, in the sense of "Hey, I understand what it's like!" rather than "Here's Little Miss Perfect, who you should all emulate."
But yes, I certainly agree there are some amazingly painful scenes.
I look forward to hearing your theory! You could maybe post it here under spoiler tags??
Hey, you can always post any questions here instead of flipping! :)
There is also Burney Texts, which reproduces the novels letter by letter. Impossible to search, of course, but a neat way to read online.
>52 Smiler69:
Whoo! Well done! I'm very glad you enjoyed it.
>53 souloftherose:
In a way, the embarrassment is the point, I think - this really was the first book written by a girl, for girls, in the sense of "Hey, I understand what it's like!" rather than "Here's Little Miss Perfect, who you should all emulate."
But yes, I certainly agree there are some amazingly painful scenes.
I look forward to hearing your theory! You could maybe post it here under spoiler tags??
55streamsong
>53 souloftherose: I understand what you mean about painful. I just finished the letter detailing the Captain's abduction of Madame Duval by thieves. It strikes me as the worst kind of bullying. All it needed was someone videoing it on their i phone and posting it online to have it fit right in with the nastiness of some of the modern teenagers.
>54 lyzard: Were the three volumes published at the same time? If so, why three and not one? I've been thinking about this and have several speculations but can't confirm any of them online: from reduced cost to buy a single volume and the ease of printing smaller volumes to a small volume looking "prettier" in a lady's hand.
>54 lyzard: Were the three volumes published at the same time? If so, why three and not one? I've been thinking about this and have several speculations but can't confirm any of them online: from reduced cost to buy a single volume and the ease of printing smaller volumes to a small volume looking "prettier" in a lady's hand.
56souloftherose
>54 lyzard: 'this really was the first book written by a girl, for girls, in the sense of "Hey, I understand what it's like!"'
Ok, I hadn't thought if it like that before - makes sense.
Ok, my theory about the letter at the end of Volume II (although it sounds quite silly now I come to write it down is):
I don't think the letter was written by Lord Orville - instead I think the letter Evelina sent to Lord Orville was intercepted somehow and the response sent back was actually written by someone else. Sir Clement?
>55 streamsong: 'All it needed was someone videoing it on their i phone and posting it online to have it fit right in with the nastiness of some of the modern teenagers.'
Definitely. If the Captain or Sir Clement had had an iphone I'm sure they would have taken a video and uploaded it to all the social media channels. The more things change...
Ok, I hadn't thought if it like that before - makes sense.
Ok, my theory about the letter at the end of Volume II (although it sounds quite silly now I come to write it down is):
>55 streamsong: 'All it needed was someone videoing it on their i phone and posting it online to have it fit right in with the nastiness of some of the modern teenagers.'
Definitely. If the Captain or Sir Clement had had an iphone I'm sure they would have taken a video and uploaded it to all the social media channels. The more things change...
57lyzard
Things don't really change much, do they? - only the framework. We know how much bullying there is in the world and how funny some people find the humiliation of others. What happens in Evelina isn't any different, just more blatant, less apologetic - as if there was no need even to pay lip-service to the idea of such behaviour being wrong.
(It is even more disturbing to contemplate that beyond the mores of the day, the reason Mrs Mirvan doesn't intervene is because if she did, the Captain's violence would be turned against her.)
The other really shocking sequence here, as recounted in Letter XLVI, is Evelina getting lost in the alleys at Vauxhall and harassed by a party of young men. This was a very frequent occurrence and sexual assaults were not uncommon, so Evelina has a lucky escape. The fact that we find Sir Clement Willoughby out on the prowl in one of those parties is pretty chilling.
>55 streamsong:
Novels were routinely published in separate volumes up until the late 19th century. In the 18th century it was common for the first volume to be published as a kind of "feeler", and the second and/or third published only if the first sold well. In the case of Evelina, the three volumes came out simultaneously so the publisher must have been fairly confident about its success (and of course it was hugely popular). Later editions were mostly a single volume (with very small font!).
Originally this practice was partly because of the expense of publishing (profits from Volume I would pay for the publishing of Volume II) and partly because it made books more affordable - a kind of instalment plan; it was a practice that also allowed different members of the same family to read the same book at the same time. But in the 19th century increasingly it was because the industry became dominated by the circulating libraries, which lent out their books volume by volume to increase profits. In the early decades you'll find novels stretching to four and five volumes for this reason.
In fact books that only needed to be a single volume had a hard time getting published, and there are any number of novels where subplots have clearly only been added to pad out the length of the book. The power of the circulating libraries (which also exerted an indirect form of censorship, via what novels they would and would not stock) wasn't broken until advertising and bookselling practices changed sufficiently to allow the publishing houses to put their foot down, and this effectively caused the collapse of the libraries.
>56 souloftherose:
Well, we'll see! :)
(It is even more disturbing to contemplate that beyond the mores of the day, the reason Mrs Mirvan doesn't intervene is because if she did, the Captain's violence would be turned against her.)
The other really shocking sequence here, as recounted in Letter XLVI, is Evelina getting lost in the alleys at Vauxhall and harassed by a party of young men. This was a very frequent occurrence and sexual assaults were not uncommon, so Evelina has a lucky escape. The fact that we find Sir Clement Willoughby out on the prowl in one of those parties is pretty chilling.
>55 streamsong:
Novels were routinely published in separate volumes up until the late 19th century. In the 18th century it was common for the first volume to be published as a kind of "feeler", and the second and/or third published only if the first sold well. In the case of Evelina, the three volumes came out simultaneously so the publisher must have been fairly confident about its success (and of course it was hugely popular). Later editions were mostly a single volume (with very small font!).
Originally this practice was partly because of the expense of publishing (profits from Volume I would pay for the publishing of Volume II) and partly because it made books more affordable - a kind of instalment plan; it was a practice that also allowed different members of the same family to read the same book at the same time. But in the 19th century increasingly it was because the industry became dominated by the circulating libraries, which lent out their books volume by volume to increase profits. In the early decades you'll find novels stretching to four and five volumes for this reason.
In fact books that only needed to be a single volume had a hard time getting published, and there are any number of novels where subplots have clearly only been added to pad out the length of the book. The power of the circulating libraries (which also exerted an indirect form of censorship, via what novels they would and would not stock) wasn't broken until advertising and bookselling practices changed sufficiently to allow the publishing houses to put their foot down, and this effectively caused the collapse of the libraries.
>56 souloftherose:
Well, we'll see! :)
58luvamystery65
>56 souloftherose: This is my first thought exactly! Creep! I bet we are right.
>57 lyzard: I knew you would post some version of "wait and see..." :D
>57 lyzard: I knew you would post some version of "wait and see..." :D
60souloftherose
I've finished! A couple of questions on Volume III with spoiler tags:
1. Letter VI of Volume IIIWhy was Mr Villars so concerned about Evelina's feelings for Lord Orville. He thinks she fell in love too soon? I recall something about young ladies not being supposed to feel love until after a gentleman had proposed - is this his concern?
2. Letter XX of Volume IIII was right! But I don't really understand what Sir Clement hoped to gain. He wanted to know whether Lord Orville and Evelina were on writing terms and when he couldn't understand her letter he wrote one in response in the hope it would stop her writing anything further to Lord Orville?
1. Letter VI of Volume III
2. Letter XX of Volume III
61Smiler69
>60 souloftherose: Great questions Heather!
62lyzard
Whoo!! Well done!
Letter VI of Volume III
Mr Villars has recognised from Evelina's letters that she is in love with Lord Orville. This comes after the repudiation of Evelina by Sir John Belmont in Letter XXXV / Letter IV of Volume III. Since they can't prove her mother's marriage, this effectively makes Evelina illegitimate; she has no money; and all she has by way of family is Madame Duval. Simply, Mr Villars does not believe that a man in Lord Orville's position would marry a girl in Evelina's and, that being the case, he urges her to separate herself from him so as not to make herself even more unhappy than she must inevitably be. Evelina wants to return to Berry Hill but the others won't let her go, so all she can do is try to avoid Lord Orville.
There is a fairy-tale aspect to this novel in that Lord Orville wants to marry Evelina before her position with respect to Sir John is settled, to show that he is not influenced by wordly advantages. In reality it is extremely unlikely that an earl would have done anything of the kind.
Letter XX of Volume III
He sees that Evelina is falling for Lord Orville and does this to shock and disgust her - and to make sure there is no more correspondence, since Evelina's first note got such an offensive response. He rightly anticipates that she will not ask for an explanation of the letter - the tone of which is calculated to make her blame herself for writing in the first place.
Of course the irony here is that Sir Clement can do all this from a distance, but never seems to understand how his behaviour towards Evelina is, in her mind, every bit as shocking and disgusting as the letter. Sir Clement is one of those men who thinks he is entitled to reciprocation from any woman he chooses to pursue, and can't believe that "No" means "No". He sees Lord Orville (with all his wealth and privileges) as his one stumbling-block, and assumes that if he separates them, Evelina will immediately fall into his arms.
Letter VI of Volume III
There is a fairy-tale aspect to this novel in that Lord Orville wants to marry Evelina before her position with respect to Sir John is settled, to show that he is not influenced by wordly advantages. In reality it is extremely unlikely that an earl would have done anything of the kind.
Letter XX of Volume III
Of course the irony here is that Sir Clement can do all this from a distance, but never seems to understand how his behaviour towards Evelina is, in her mind, every bit as shocking and disgusting as the letter. Sir Clement is one of those men who thinks he is entitled to reciprocation from any woman he chooses to pursue, and can't believe that "No" means "No". He sees Lord Orville (with all his wealth and privileges) as his one stumbling-block, and assumes that if he separates them, Evelina will immediately fall into his arms.
63Smiler69
>62 lyzard:
Re: Letter VI, Vol. III: Agreed, very unlikely indeed. But such fantasies are what fairy tales are made of!
Re: Letter XX, Vol. III: In other words, he is a complete idiot and an insensitive cad. Gotta love that Jane Austen named her own cad Willoughby. I'll definitely keep Frances Burney's first version of the character in mind next time I reread S&S!
Re: Letter VI, Vol. III: Agreed, very unlikely indeed. But such fantasies are what fairy tales are made of!
Re: Letter XX, Vol. III: In other words, he is a complete idiot and an insensitive cad. Gotta love that Jane Austen named her own cad Willoughby. I'll definitely keep Frances Burney's first version of the character in mind next time I reread S&S!
64lyzard
We understand why generations of female readers fell in love with Lord Orville, anyway. :)
They didn't have the term "entitled" then but that's what we're looking for, I think: Sir Clement genuinely doesn't understand why Evelina keeps saying no, still less that she would continue saying no even if there was no Lord Orville. He thinks he only has to ask---or rather, demand.
Yes, that's a lovely touch by Austen and probably acted as a subtle warning to a lot of her readers.
They didn't have the term "entitled" then but that's what we're looking for, I think: Sir Clement genuinely doesn't understand why Evelina keeps saying no, still less that she would continue saying no even if there was no Lord Orville. He thinks he only has to ask---or rather, demand.
Yes, that's a lovely touch by Austen and probably acted as a subtle warning to a lot of her readers.
65lyzard
Apropos of Heather's question about Letter VI of Volume III, I wanted to add this---this is Sir Clement speaking in Letter XIV of Volume III:
"My intentions," cried he, "I will frankly own, are hardly known to myself. I think Miss Anville the loveliest of her sex; and, were I a marrying man, she, of all the women I have seen, I would fix upon for a wife: but I believe that not even the philosophy of your Lordship would recommend me to a connection of that sort, with a girl of obscure birth, whose only dowry is her beauty, and who is evidently in a state of dependency."
Sir Clement is only a baronet, remember; so we can measure by his attitude the distance between Lord Orville and Evelina in her (supposed) circumstances.
Of course, Sir Clement is wrong about Lord Orville's "philosophy". :)
Conversely we note from this that despite Sir Clement's obsessive pursuit of Evelina, he has no intention of marrying her. He even goes on to say this, in Letter XVI of Volume III:
"Enough," cried he, "I understand you!---the art of Orville has prevailed;---cold, inanimate, phlegmatic as he is, you have rendered him the most envied of men!---One thing more, and I have done:---Will he marry you?"
What a question! my cheeks glowed with indignation, and I felt too proud to make any answer.
Compare that to Lord Orville in the same letter:
"My Lord," said I, when I was able to speak, "you little know what an outcast you have honoured with your choice!---a child of bounty,-an orphan from infancy,---dependant, even for subsistence, dependent, upon the kindness of compassion!---Rejected by my natural friends,---disowned for ever by my nearest relation,---Oh, my Lord, so circumstanced, can I deserve the distinction with which you honour me? No, no, I feel the inequality too painfully;---you must leave me, my Lord; you must suffer me to return to obscurity; and there, in the bosom of my first, best, my only friend,---I will pour forth all the grief of my heart!---while you, my Lord, must seek elsewhere---"
I could not proceed; my whole soul recoiled against the charge I would have given, and my voice refused to utter it.
"Never," cried he, warmly, "my heart is yours, and I swear to you an attachment eternal!---You prepare me, indeed, for a tale of horror, and I am almost breathless with expectation;---but so firm is my conviction, that, whatever are your misfortunes, to have merited them is not of the number, that I feel myself more strongly, more invincibly devoted to you than ever!---Tell me but where I may find this noble friend, whose virtues you have already taught me to reverence,---and I will fly to obtain his consent and intercession, that henceforward our fates my be indissolubly united;---and then shall it be the sole study of my life to endeavour to soften your past,---and guard you from future misfortunes!"
Sir Clement is only a baronet, remember; so we can measure by his attitude the distance between Lord Orville and Evelina in her (supposed) circumstances.
Of course, Sir Clement is wrong about Lord Orville's "philosophy". :)
Conversely we note from this that despite Sir Clement's obsessive pursuit of Evelina, he has no intention of marrying her. He even goes on to say this, in Letter XVI of Volume III:
What a question! my cheeks glowed with indignation, and I felt too proud to make any answer.
Compare that to Lord Orville in the same letter:
I could not proceed; my whole soul recoiled against the charge I would have given, and my voice refused to utter it.
"Never," cried he, warmly, "my heart is yours, and I swear to you an attachment eternal!---You prepare me, indeed, for a tale of horror, and I am almost breathless with expectation;---but so firm is my conviction, that, whatever are your misfortunes, to have merited them is not of the number, that I feel myself more strongly, more invincibly devoted to you than ever!---Tell me but where I may find this noble friend, whose virtues you have already taught me to reverence,---and I will fly to obtain his consent and intercession, that henceforward our fates my be indissolubly united;---and then shall it be the sole study of my life to endeavour to soften your past,---and guard you from future misfortunes!"
66souloftherose
>62 lyzard: Thanks Liz. I had a soft spot for the fairytaleness (and for Lord Orville).
>64 lyzard: I was going to ask whether you thought any of Austen's readers might have connected the two Willoughbys :-)
I did feel a little sad that Mr Villars couldn't come to the wedding but I suppose an epistolary novel required there to be someone absent so that Evelina could write to them about it. .
>64 lyzard: I was going to ask whether you thought any of Austen's readers might have connected the two Willoughbys :-)
67lyzard
Re: your spoiler, I find it very weird that no-one even suggested inviting him, still less having him perform the ceremony, which is a staple all through 19th century literature and into the 20th, if there's a minister parent / guardian , which is another measure of how different the world was then, I guess.
